Does Self-realization preclude immorality?

[siftingtothetruth]

In your opinion, can someone who is fully realized act in grossly selfish and harmful ways to others?

Or does that point to an incompleteness in the realization?

Why?

Discuss.

[andrew]

No takers on this one yet? I would say that the spiritually evolved will always take the highest option (or least egoic option)in each situation. However, not all situations have good options available, there can be 'rock and hard place' scenarios. So I would say it is possible for action to still be selfish/harmful IF that is the highest option available. It's possible to 'be egoic' IF that's what is called for. When Niz ranted at folks and kicked them out, it's 'right action' but probably still invoked ego.

Way I see it, is that even following profound realizations, a lot of folks are 'rough diamonds'. There can still be karma to play out, if you believe that sort of thing. The diamond is polished and smoothed over time. So even on this forum over the years, we see karma playing out, and diamonds being worked on. Are there ANY totally perfected diamonds? Seems doubtful to me.

[siftingtothetruth]

Mar 21, 2019 4:06:25 GMT -5 andrew said:

No takers on this one yet? I would say that the spiritually evolved will always take the highest option (or least egoic option)in each situation. However, not all situations have good options available, there can be 'rock and hard place' scenarios. So I would say it is possible for action to still be selfish/harmful IF that is the highest option available. It's possible to 'be egoic' IF that's what is called for. When Niz ranted at folks and kicked them out, it's 'right action' but probably still invoked ego.

Way I see it, is that even following profound realizations, a lot of folks are 'rough diamonds'. There can still be karma to play out, if you believe that sort of thing. The diamond is polished and smoothed over time. So even on this forum over the years, we see karma playing out, and diamonds being worked on. Are there ANY totally perfected diamonds? Seems doubtful to me.

Right. "Necessary" situations aside, though, your position is that realization is incompatible with seemingly unnecessary immoral, hurtful behavior? Because there is another position, that self-realization has simply nothing to do with morality whatsoever, that one could be completely evil and self-realized.

[andrew]

Mar 21, 2019 7:14:59 GMT -5 siftingtothetruth said:

Mar 21, 2019 4:06:25 GMT -5 andrew said:

No takers on this one yet? I would say that the spiritually evolved will always take the highest option (or least egoic option)in each situation. However, not all situations have good options available, there can be 'rock and hard place' scenarios. So I would say it is possible for action to still be selfish/harmful IF that is the highest option available. It's possible to 'be egoic' IF that's what is called for. When Niz ranted at folks and kicked them out, it's 'right action' but probably still invoked ego.

Way I see it, is that even following profound realizations, a lot of folks are 'rough diamonds'. There can still be karma to play out, if you believe that sort of thing. The diamond is polished and smoothed over time. So even on this forum over the years, we see karma playing out, and diamonds being worked on. Are there ANY totally perfected diamonds? Seems doubtful to me.

Right. "Necessary" situations aside, though, your position is that realization is incompatible with seemingly unnecessary immoral, hurtful behavior? Because there is another position, that self-realization has simply nothing to do with morality whatsoever, that one could be completely evil and self-realized.

Even though I see the realization itself as beyond or transcendent of morality, I don't think we can divorce the effect of the realization on our morality. So, no, I don't think self realization and evil are compatible.

[siftingtothetruth]

Mar 21, 2019 7:32:51 GMT -5 andrew said:

Mar 21, 2019 7:14:59 GMT -5 siftingtothetruth said:

Right. "Necessary" situations aside, though, your position is that realization is incompatible with seemingly unnecessary immoral, hurtful behavior? Because there is another position, that self-realization has simply nothing to do with morality whatsoever, that one could be completely evil and self-realized.

Even though I see the realization itself as beyond or transcendent of morality, I don't think we can divorce the effect of the realization on our morality. So, no, I don't think self realization and evil are compatible.

It's interesting, because in the Hindu tradition, at least, there are certainly examples of "evil" actions taken by the presumably enlightened. Yajnavalkya, a famous Upanishadic sage, for example, is in some interpretations said to curse his rival, Sakalya, to death, out of anger (not for any good or necessary reason).

Ravana, a demon king who is certainly quite evil, is actually simply an incarnation one of the god Vishnu's attendants, cursed to manifest on earth in that evil form for a lifetime. Presumably he too might be considered self-realized. 

The medieval scholar-sage Vidyaranya says in his work "Jivanmukti Viveka" that there's a distinction between one who knows the Self and one who is fully liberated in this lifetime, and that only the latter need be free of moral stains.

[andrew]

Mar 21, 2019 8:04:20 GMT -5 siftingtothetruth said:

Mar 21, 2019 7:32:51 GMT -5 andrew said:

Even though I see the realization itself as beyond or transcendent of morality, I don't think we can divorce the effect of the realization on our morality. So, no, I don't think self realization and evil are compatible.

It's interesting, because in the Hindu tradition, at least, there are certainly examples of "evil" actions taken by the presumably enlightened. Yajnavalkya, a famous Upanishadic sage, for example, is in some interpretations said to curse his rival, Sakalya, to death, out of anger (not for any good or necessary reason).

Ravana, a demon king who is certainly quite evil, is actually simply an incarnation one of the god Vishnu's attendants, cursed to manifest on earth in that evil form for a lifetime. Presumably he too might be considered self-realized. nbsp;

The medieval scholar-sage Vidyaranya says in his work "Jivanmukti Viveka" that there's a distinction between one who knows the Self and one who is fully liberated in this lifetime, and that only the latter need be free of moral stains.

That is interesting, and the distinction there is a valid one (a bit like 'unpolished diamond and polished diamond). The story of Lucifer in some interpretations is interesting too. As a fallen angel he took on the role so as to seed existence with dualistic realms of experience, such as this one. In a sense, he gave us separation and evil. The higher purpose of this though was that it would ultimately serve creation to know separation/evil, and then to transcend it. In a sense, the process deepens and expands existence. So even though he 'created' evil, and represents 'evil', there was a 'good' purpose behind it.

My position is that I try not to judge how spiritually evolved someone is based on their actions (I used to be far more judgemental about this). The reason is as I said, sometimes even the highest choice can look like a bad choice to a casual observer. The highest choice might necessarily involve anger, violence, ego, judgement. I think a 'teacher' took his own life a few years ago, and at the time, I questioned his teaching status. But now I think, it really might have been the highest option available to him. Or drinking alcohol might be another example in which it is the highest option. Or as Vidyaranya implies, perhaps this is all part of the ongoing purification process even for those that know Self.