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Post by siftingtothetruth on Mar 12, 2019 19:30:02 GMT -5
I've encountered several seekers who, when presented with the possibility of continuous self-inquiry and/or surrender, express fears that they won't be able to get through their day and accomplish their 'normal' responsibilities -- their job and family duties, etc. They are afraid their mind will be focused inward and they will drop the ball on those things by being dream-like, hazy, etc.
I usually try to explain that that very fear is itself based on the assumption that we are trying to penetrate -- that there is someone who is a doer and who makes the decision either to 'surrender/self-inquire' or not to do that... and that there is someone who suffers the consequences of either choice.
Of course, in fact, there is neither a chooser nor someone who experiences the consequences of whatever is chosen.
But it's hard for them not to feel like self-inquiry and/or relaxing the mind and its expectations disrupts their lives, makes it impossible for them to concentrate on their duties.
What say you all?
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Post by krsnaraja on Mar 12, 2019 19:37:19 GMT -5
I've encountered several seekers who, when presented with the possibility of continuous self-inquiry and/or surrender, express fears that they won't be able to get through their day and accomplish their 'normal' responsibilities -- their job and family duties, etc. They are afraid their mind will be focused inward and they will drop the ball on those things by being dream-like, hazy, etc. I usually try to explain that that very fear is itself based on the assumption that we are trying to penetrate -- that there is someone who is a doer and who makes the decision either to 'surrender/self-inquire' or not to do that... and that there is someone who suffers the consequences of either choice. Of course, in fact, there is neither a chooser nor someone who experiences the consequences of whatever is chosen. But it's hard for them not to feel like self-inquiry and/or relaxing the mind and its expectations disrupts their lives, makes it impossible for them to concentrate on their duties. What say you all? I keep wondering why old people are inclined to always watch TV. |
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Post by satchitananda on Mar 12, 2019 20:50:49 GMT -5
I've encountered several seekers who, when presented with the possibility of continuous self-inquiry and/or surrender, express fears that they won't be able to get through their day and accomplish their 'normal' responsibilities -- their job and family duties, etc. They are afraid their mind will be focused inward and they will drop the ball on those things by being dream-like, hazy, etc. I usually try to explain that that very fear is itself based on the assumption that we are trying to penetrate -- that there is someone who is a doer and who makes the decision either to 'surrender/self-inquire' or not to do that... and that there is someone who suffers the consequences of either choice. Of course, in fact, there is neither a chooser nor someone who experiences the consequences of whatever is chosen. But it's hard for them not to feel like self-inquiry and/or relaxing the mind and its expectations disrupts their lives, makes it impossible for them to concentrate on their duties. What say you all? Tell them not to do it continuously throughout the day so they can live their lives, to allocate some time for sitting practice and then go about accomplishing their tasks. And above all stop telling them that they are not doers. That's introducing an unnecessary concept because non doership can only be realized. |
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Post by siftingtothetruth on Mar 12, 2019 21:03:15 GMT -5
I've encountered several seekers who, when presented with the possibility of continuous self-inquiry and/or surrender, express fears that they won't be able to get through their day and accomplish their 'normal' responsibilities -- their job and family duties, etc. They are afraid their mind will be focused inward and they will drop the ball on those things by being dream-like, hazy, etc. I usually try to explain that that very fear is itself based on the assumption that we are trying to penetrate -- that there is someone who is a doer and who makes the decision either to 'surrender/self-inquire' or not to do that... and that there is someone who suffers the consequences of either choice. Of course, in fact, there is neither a chooser nor someone who experiences the consequences of whatever is chosen. But it's hard for them not to feel like self-inquiry and/or relaxing the mind and its expectations disrupts their lives, makes it impossible for them to concentrate on their duties. What say you all? Tell them not to do it continuously throughout the day so they can live their lives, to allocate some time for sitting practice and then go about accomplishing their tasks. And above all stop telling them that they are not doers. That's introducing an unnecessary concept because non doership can only be realized. Allocating sitting practice is fine for beginners, but eventually they have to take it into the day, indeed into every waking moment. I agree that non-doership can only be realized, but that concept helps as groundwork for that realization. It acts as a pointer. It is not telling them to be non-doers (that would be absurd), but it is suggesting to them that their concern about the conflict between spiritual seeking & temporal doing needs to be inquired into, that it is based on an incoherent assumption. |
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Post by satchitananda on Mar 12, 2019 21:11:13 GMT -5
Tell them not to do it continuously throughout the day so they can live their lives, to allocate some time for sitting practice and then go about accomplishing their tasks. And above all stop telling them that they are not doers. That's introducing an unnecessary concept because non doership can only be realized. Allocating sitting practice is fine for beginners, but eventually they have to take it into the day, indeed into every waking moment. I agree that non-doership can only be realized, but that concept helps as groundwork for that realization. It acts as a pointer. It is not telling them to be non-doers (that would be absurd), but it is suggesting to them that their concern about the conflict between spiritual seeking & temporal doing needs to be inquired into, that it is based on an incoherent assumption. I don't agree that sitting practice is fine for beginners. You are not a beginner if you have been doing sitting practice for 20 years are you? And I definitely do not agree that you need to be doing self inquiry throughout the day. In fact it's counterproductive. What counts is quality not quantity. And anyway if you are encountering resistance from those you are telling to practice all day then obviously they are beginners and shouldn't be given such instruction. I'm not sure that you have the experience to be giving any advice. |
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Post by siftingtothetruth on Mar 12, 2019 21:16:25 GMT -5
Allocating sitting practice is fine for beginners, but eventually they have to take it into the day, indeed into every waking moment. I agree that non-doership can only be realized, but that concept helps as groundwork for that realization. It acts as a pointer. It is not telling them to be non-doers (that would be absurd), but it is suggesting to them that their concern about the conflict between spiritual seeking & temporal doing needs to be inquired into, that it is based on an incoherent assumption. I don't agree that sitting practice is fine for beginners. You are not a beginner if you have been doing sitting practice for 20 years are you? And I definitely do not agree that you need to be doing self inquiry throughout the day. In fact it's counterproductive. What counts is quality not quantity. And anyway if you are encountering resistance from those you are telling to practice all day then obviously they are beginners and shouldn't be given such instruction. I'm not sure that you have the experience to be giving any advice. Well, I guess we disagree on all points. Thanks for your thoughts. |
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Post by krsnaraja on Mar 12, 2019 21:44:33 GMT -5
I don't agree that sitting practice is fine for beginners. You are not a beginner if you have been doing sitting practice for 20 years are you? And I definitely do not agree that you need to be doing self inquiry throughout the day. In fact it's counterproductive. What counts is quality not quantity. And anyway if you are encountering resistance from those you are telling to practice all day then obviously they are beginners and shouldn't be given such instruction. I'm not sure that you have the experience to be giving any advice. Well, I guess we disagree on all points. Thanks for your thoughts. It's in disagreeing one finds what he's seeking. |
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Post by laughter on Mar 13, 2019 3:59:22 GMT -5
I've encountered several seekers who, when presented with the possibility of continuous self-inquiry and/or surrender, express fears that they won't be able to get through their day and accomplish their 'normal' responsibilities -- their job and family duties, etc. They are afraid their mind will be focused inward and they will drop the ball on those things by being dream-like, hazy, etc. I usually try to explain that that very fear is itself based on the assumption that we are trying to penetrate -- that there is someone who is a doer and who makes the decision either to 'surrender/self-inquire' or not to do that... and that there is someone who suffers the consequences of either choice. Of course, in fact, there is neither a chooser nor someone who experiences the consequences of whatever is chosen. But it's hard for them not to feel like self-inquiry and/or relaxing the mind and its expectations disrupts their lives, makes it impossible for them to concentrate on their duties. What say you all? You're right of course, but to some extent their wariness is warranted because the truth has an insistent pull to it that can gain a momentum that eventually consumes the entirety of attention. The seeker has to find the witness and become adept at allowing the flow of life to continue regardless of what the inner eye is reporting, and depending on their given state, the ego very well could paralyze itself in the confusion. I'd guess that having experienced something like what Zen calls Kensho would facilitate this process, as it would definitely provide the existential detachment required to both function but also remain internally alert and open. I'd advise them, specifically, that losing the thread of that inner-attention is essentially inevitable. It's similar to following the breath in a sitting meditation. Even skilled meditator's with quiet minds can sometimes find themselves lost in a train of thought. So, when this happens, the noticing of the loss of alertness itself is a gift to be appreciated, and there's no failure in it. From what I've read of the sort of shifts this can precipitate, cracking the shell of the trance isn't always a pleasant experience, and can even possibly lead to temporary debilitation. I guess if I were meeting people to encourage self-inquiry, I'd probably evaluate them as individuals and turn some of them away, while other's I might just instead warn of the potential, and hope for the one's that I'd expect would have a good trip so that none of that was necessary.  |
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Post by satchitananda on Mar 13, 2019 4:20:36 GMT -5
Although Ramana Maharshi advocated self inquiry as the most direct path he certainly didn't recommend it to everyone by any means. He would evaluate each person depending on their experience and personal circumstances.
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Post by siftingtothetruth on Mar 13, 2019 9:37:18 GMT -5
You're right of course, but to some extent their wariness is warranted because the truth has an insistent pull to it that can gain a momentum that eventually consumes the entirety of attention. The seeker has to find the witness and become adept at allowing the flow of life to continue regardless of what the inner eye is reporting, and depending on their given state, the ego very well could paralyze itself in the confusion. I'd guess that having experienced something like what Zen calls Kensho would facilitate this process, as it would definitely provide the existential detachment required to both function but also remain internally alert and open. I'd advise them, specifically, that losing the thread of that inner-attention is essentially inevitable. It's similar to following the breath in a sitting meditation. Even skilled meditator's with quiet minds can sometimes find themselves lost in a train of thought. So, when this happens, the noticing of the loss of alertness itself is a gift to be appreciated, and there's no failure in it. From what I've read of the sort of shifts this can precipitate, cracking the shell of the trance isn't always a pleasant experience, and can even possibly lead to temporary debilitation. I guess if I were meeting people to encourage self-inquiry, I'd probably evaluate them as individuals and turn some of them away, while other's I might just instead warn of the potential, and hope for the one's that I'd expect would have a good trip so that none of that was necessary. Excellent, thoughtful advice, thank you. Ironically, the fear has sometimes been not that they they will lose themselves in a train of thought but that they will lose themselves in the bliss of a quiet, peaceful mind and then they will lose the ability/desire to "get things done," since that (in their view) requires disrupting the quiet mind with effortful, self-referential thought. |
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Post by siftingtothetruth on Mar 13, 2019 9:57:20 GMT -5
Although Ramana Maharshi advocated self inquiry as the most direct path he certainly didn't recommend it to everyone by any means. He would evaluate each person depending on their experience and personal circumstances. True. I do that too. |
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Post by laughter on Mar 13, 2019 13:28:02 GMT -5
You're right of course, but to some extent their wariness is warranted because the truth has an insistent pull to it that can gain a momentum that eventually consumes the entirety of attention. The seeker has to find the witness and become adept at allowing the flow of life to continue regardless of what the inner eye is reporting, and depending on their given state, the ego very well could paralyze itself in the confusion. I'd guess that having experienced something like what Zen calls Kensho would facilitate this process, as it would definitely provide the existential detachment required to both function but also remain internally alert and open. I'd advise them, specifically, that losing the thread of that inner-attention is essentially inevitable. It's similar to following the breath in a sitting meditation. Even skilled meditator's with quiet minds can sometimes find themselves lost in a train of thought. So, when this happens, the noticing of the loss of alertness itself is a gift to be appreciated, and there's no failure in it. From what I've read of the sort of shifts this can precipitate, cracking the shell of the trance isn't always a pleasant experience, and can even possibly lead to temporary debilitation. I guess if I were meeting people to encourage self-inquiry, I'd probably evaluate them as individuals and turn some of them away, while other's I might just instead warn of the potential, and hope for the one's that I'd expect would have a good trip so that none of that was necessary. Excellent, thoughtful advice, thank you. Ironically, the fear has sometimes been not that they they will lose themselves in a train of thought but that they will lose themselves in the bliss of a quiet, peaceful mind and then they will lose the ability/desire to "get things done," since that (in their view) requires disrupting the quiet mind with effortful, self-referential thought. Thanks for the kind words. heh-heh, the ego is far more clever than we can ever hope to be.  And I'm repeating something that E' once waxed on about here. But I have to say, that if you've got people reflecting on this question, you've done a great job already. One opportunity I see here is to suggest that sometimes ego can co-opt what seems like a felt sense of inner-peace. |
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And I'm repeating something that E' once waxed on about here. But I have to say, that if you've got people reflecting on this question, you've done a great job already. One opportunity I see here is to suggest that sometimes ego can co-opt what seems like a felt sense of inner-peace.