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Post by krsnaraja on Mar 11, 2019 21:08:41 GMT -5
This is where ND gets funky. Because in my view even getting angry is evidence that you, whatever "you" is, has bought into the illusion of a separate self, even if it's only for an instant. There's always that tug in the story. And for the life of me it seems that it's a continuum. Some folks who are SR seem to buy into it more or less often. You can counter that by saying that it's not the "real" me. It's the body/mind, but somehow that seems hokey. Spira comes to terms with it by saying that the realization of oneness or no separation is just the beginning, that it needs to followed by a slow but willed purging of the body/mind's habits. Fig and E just say that you still "engage" in the dream. But that doesn't explain why SR folk REACT to the dream at times very much like the rest of us. The goal of SR is not to stop feeling, Which I suspect you can appreciate, or to stop feeling 'bad' feelings, the labeling of which is entirely ego driven. Given that, feelings arise unadulterated, as pure feeling without the judgment. It doesn't require a 'me identification' in order to engage and to feel in response to experience happening, and so all 'pure' feelings are felt and enjoyed. Feelings such as rage and terror will not arise, not because they are not good feelings, but because they are not real feelings. They are creative overlays of the mind in turmoil. Googled ( from a blogger who watches Burt Harding's views on You Tube ) Pure feeling is pure awareness. When you listen to your favorite piece of music you might literally forget yourself. In this 'self-forgetting' there is joy and innocence -- the true spiritual qualities. In other words, the qualities that we cherish such as freedom, love, joy, peace, happiness and inner fulfillment are not qualities at all -- they are the 'NOW' itself. Did you ever feel so drawn to something or someone where you actually disappeared? In that moment you were 'real' and 'egoless.' Did you ever watch performers perform incredible feats of focused energy? In that moment there was no ego (no personal 'I') but pure action emerging from the focused 'now.' Did you ever laugh so heartily that tears ran down your cheeks? In that moment there was spontaneous action from pure awareness. Pure feeling is always 'positive' because it brings out our true natural being of love and oneness.
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Mar 11, 2019 21:10:48 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2019 21:10:48 GMT -5
This fits Rupert's model except he doesn't call it conditioning. He calls it "residual layers of contracted energy." Or something like that. I agree with your assessment regarding fear of death and realization, but you must admit that there are many "unrealized" folk who also don't fear death and who have also stopped searching for answers. We sometimes call them religious fanatics now granted these, usually, embrace the notion of an afterlife. It seems the crux of the matter is etolle's question and to me it's simply realizing the answer to his question is "yes." This is the seed that sprouts awakening. First the mind grows skeptical of its own chatter and with practice grows silent. To me what you call realization CAN BE transposing the mind chattering about what's not happening with self talk about the illusory nature of reality, adding just another layer of conditioning. In my own case all this talk about what we are and are not is interesting fodder for the mind, but ego distractions never-the-less. As to anger and other emotions, when mind stops, everything seems to have a place and fits perfectly in the flow. And I might add in atma vichara and Zen, the mind coming to rest, subsiding, stopping, is critical. There are just different methods used to help bring this about. Meditation in the case of Zen, except for that weird Rinzai sect, and self-inquiry for those who prefer mental rather than physical torture. I jest. Rinzai is cool, even devotion. All paths are fine. I don't believe it's an exact science.
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Mar 11, 2019 21:13:31 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2019 21:13:31 GMT -5
Absolutely. You can read books on masters and see sages on batgap. And come away with the impression that butter doesn't melt in their mouths or they are sitting on a mountain top untouched When I fell awake being with different teachers after I could see yes im in That but I also have effed up parts. Now twenty years later it seems less so. But like today at work a customer really pissed me off on one level but I could also see the play on another level. It's very cool when you can actually see both like that. ....Or let them play mom to a couple of teenagers for a week.
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Mar 11, 2019 21:15:45 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2019 21:15:45 GMT -5
This is where ND gets funky. Because in my view even getting angry is evidence that you, whatever "you" is, has bought into the illusion of a separate self, even if it's only for an instant. There's always that tug in the story. And for the life of me it seems that it's a continuum. Some folks who are SR seem to buy into it more or less often. You can counter that by saying that it's not the "real" me. It's the body/mind, but somehow that seems hokey. Spira comes to terms with it by saying that the realization of oneness or no separation is just the beginning, that it needs to followed by a slow but willed purging of the body/mind's habits. Fig and E just say that you still "engage" in the dream. But that doesn't explain why SR folk REACT to the dream at times very much like the rest of us. The goal of SR is not to stop feeling, Which I suspect you can appreciate, or to stop feeling 'bad' feelings, the labeling of which is entirely ego driven. Given that, feelings arise unadulterated, as pure feeling without the judgment. It doesn't require a 'me identification' in order to engage and to feel in response to experience happening, and so all 'pure' feelings are felt and enjoyed. Feelings such as rage and terror will not arise, not because they are not good feelings, but because they are not real feelings. They are creative overlays of the mind in turmoil.Wow....good stuff.
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Mar 11, 2019 21:16:21 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2019 21:16:21 GMT -5
This is where ND gets funky. Because in my view even getting angry is evidence that you, whatever "you" is, has bought into the illusion of a separate self, even if it's only for an instant. There's always that tug in the story. And for the life of me it seems that it's a continuum. Some folks who are SR seem to buy into it more or less often. You can counter that by saying that it's not the "real" me. It's the body/mind, but somehow that seems hokey. Spira comes to terms with it by saying that the realization of oneness or no separation is just the beginning, that it needs to followed by a slow but willed purging of the body/mind's habits. Fig and E just say that you still "engage" in the dream. But that doesn't explain why SR folk REACT to the dream at times very much like the rest of us. The goal of SR is not to stop feeling, Which I suspect you can appreciate, or to stop feeling 'bad' feelings, the labeling of which is entirely ego driven. Given that, feelings arise unadulterated, as pure feeling without the judgment. It doesn't require a 'me identification' in order to engage and to feel in response to experience happening, and so all 'pure' feelings are felt and enjoyed. Feelings such as rage and terror will not arise, not because they are not good feelings, but because they are not real feelings. They are creative overlays of the mind in turmoil. So awareness or E feels compassion for the beat dog, unadulterated compassion or is compasion not a real feeling?
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Mar 11, 2019 22:20:32 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2019 22:20:32 GMT -5
The goal of SR is not to stop feeling, Which I suspect you can appreciate, or to stop feeling 'bad' feelings, the labeling of which is entirely ego driven. Given that, feelings arise unadulterated, as pure feeling without the judgment. It doesn't require a 'me identification' in order to engage and to feel in response to experience happening, and so all 'pure' feelings are felt and enjoyed. Feelings such as rage and terror will not arise, not because they are not good feelings, but because they are not real feelings. They are creative overlays of the mind in turmoil. So awareness or E feels compassion for the beat dog, unadulterated compassion or is compasion not a real feeling? Here's a concrete example. If I'm watching a movie. I can get quite riled about a beat dog, because I suspend disbelief and engage in the story, or I can disengage and say it's just a movie and the emotions disappear. There are no emotions if there is no buy in, pure or otherwise.
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Mar 11, 2019 22:20:48 GMT -5
Post by siftingtothetruth on Mar 11, 2019 22:20:48 GMT -5
This is where ND gets funky. Because in my view even getting angry is evidence that you, whatever "you" is, has bought into the illusion of a separate self, even if it's only for an instant. There's always that tug in the story. And for the life of me it seems that it's a continuum. Some folks who are SR seem to buy into it more or less often. You can counter that by saying that it's not the "real" me. It's the body/mind, but somehow that seems hokey. Spira comes to terms with it by saying that the realization of oneness or no separation is just the beginning, that it needs to followed by a slow but willed purging of the body/mind's habits. Fig and E just say that you still "engage" in the dream. But that doesn't explain why SR folk REACT to the dream at times very much like the rest of us. Suppose you're reading a novel where the main character has been dealing with all kinds of difficult stuff. And this character has also been a spiritual seeker. After the character goes to a long meditation retreat and has been meditating for several hours, the next words in the novel are: "I once thought I was a person. But now I actually realize I am just words in a novel." Has anyone actually realized anything?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2019 22:54:31 GMT -5
This is where ND gets funky. Because in my view even getting angry is evidence that you, whatever "you" is, has bought into the illusion of a separate self, even if it's only for an instant. There's always that tug in the story. And for the life of me it seems that it's a continuum. Some folks who are SR seem to buy into it more or less often. You can counter that by saying that it's not the "real" me. It's the body/mind, but somehow that seems hokey. Spira comes to terms with it by saying that the realization of oneness or no separation is just the beginning, that it needs to followed by a slow but willed purging of the body/mind's habits. Fig and E just say that you still "engage" in the dream. But that doesn't explain why SR folk REACT to the dream at times very much like the rest of us. Suppose you're reading a novel where the main character has been dealing with all kinds of difficult stuff. And this character has also been a spiritual seeker. After the character goes to a long meditation retreat and has been meditating for several hours, the next words in the novel are: "I once thought I was a person. But now I actually realize I am just words in a novel." Has anyone actually realized anything? Cool story. Kind of like you can't find what was never lost.
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Mar 11, 2019 23:05:33 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2019 23:05:33 GMT -5
Suppose you're reading a novel where the main character has been dealing with all kinds of difficult stuff. And this character has also been a spiritual seeker. After the character goes to a long meditation retreat and has been meditating for several hours, the next words in the novel are: "I once thought I was a person. But now I actually realize I am just words in a novel." Has anyone actually realized anything? Cool story. Kind of like you can't find what was never lost. There's a Zen story about a monk comfortably lying in a boat adrift on a beatiful lake. The sun is rising and a gentle mist is dissipating. He is enraptured with the beauty of the setting. Suddenly another boat comes out of nowhere and rams his boat. "Son of a gun," he growls (actually much worse but I have to watch my language). He jumps up to confront this reckless and rude interloper only to realize that the boat that rammed his, is empty.
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Post by satchitananda on Mar 11, 2019 23:49:30 GMT -5
So awareness or E feels compassion for the beat dog, unadulterated compassion or is compasion not a real feeling? Here's a concrete example. If I'm watching a movie. I can get quite riled about a beat dog, because I suspend disbelief and engage in the story, or I can disengage and say it's just a movie and the emotions disappear. There are no emotions if there is no buy in, pure or otherwise. No one watches a movie in order to disengage from the story and characters.
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Mar 12, 2019 0:01:08 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2019 0:01:08 GMT -5
Here's a concrete example. If I'm watching a movie. I can get quite riled about a beat dog, because I suspend disbelief and engage in the story, or I can disengage and say it's just a movie and the emotions disappear. There are no emotions if there is no buy in, pure or otherwise. No one watches a movie in order to disengage from the story and characters. Agreed and no onee eats french fries with carrots.
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Post by satchitananda on Mar 12, 2019 0:03:37 GMT -5
No one watches a movie in order to disengage from the story and characters. Agreed and no onee eats french fries with carrots. That's just too cryptic. Have you ever eaten a french fries sandwich?
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Mar 12, 2019 0:19:55 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2019 0:19:55 GMT -5
Agreed and no onee eats french fries with carrots. That's just too cryptic. Have you ever eaten a french fries sandwich? Not cryptic at all. Just about as relevant to your post as yours was to mine. I was challenging the notion that SR means you never buy into believing the life story is not an illusion. I say emotional responses indicate that you believe if only temporarily that the story is not illusory. Btw, I disengage from the movie quite often, too scary or too gory. Remember Cat People or American Werewolf in London? I had to cover my eyes in certain parts. French fry sandwish sounds good. How about french fry pie? Nah. Yuck.
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Post by satchitananda on Mar 12, 2019 0:23:50 GMT -5
That's just too cryptic. Have you ever eaten a french fries sandwich? Not cryptic at all. Just about as relevant to your post as yours was to mine. I was challenging the notion that SR means you never buy into believing the life story is not an illusion. I say emotional responses indicate that you believe if only temporarily that the story is not illusory. Btw, I disengage from the movie quite often, too scary or too gory. French fry sandwish sounds good. How about french fry pie? Nah. Yuck. Oh I see. Yes I agree with you. The full range of human engagement and emotions are available in SR even though the real is the substratum from which they emerge.
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Mar 12, 2019 2:05:56 GMT -5
Post by laughter on Mar 12, 2019 2:05:56 GMT -5
So awareness or E feels compassion for the beat dog, unadulterated compassion or is compasion not a real feeling? Here's a concrete example. If I'm watching a movie. I can get quite riled about a beat dog, because I suspend disbelief and engage in the story, or I can disengage and say it's just a movie and the emotions disappear. There are no emotions if there is no buy in, pure or otherwise. The history of stoicism is really interesting to me for two reasons. One is that it's an orientation toward the world that is essentially woven into the tapestry of our culture, so that we don't even notice it. It's sort of taken for granted. The other reason is because I suspect that at its genesis is a truly enlightened person or persons who did their best to sort of institutionalize some of the aspects of their enlightenment. Someone should print up a "Mission Accomplished" banner. The difference between someone realized and not is that there is no suppression of emotions, but yet, much less of a chance of the tail wagging the dog. People being people, losing oneself in a rabbit-warren of our own creation is always possible, but a realized peep never gets lost down there for good.
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