Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Mushin
Jan 8, 2019 12:08:15 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2019 12:08:15 GMT -5
This is a state I find myself in fairly often. It seems to happen as often now when I meditate as when I don't. I still prefer to meditate. It seems to slow the chatter down and has other pleasant outcomes that are not the subject of this post. Mushin is. I read here where folks who are"free," "Self Realized" appear content, happy, unburdened. I must not appear that way. I would say most folks seem concerned when I am in that state, mushin. My wife says there's a lack of affect. I don't react to anything. I do feel emotions, but they don't provoke thoughts, stories. There's no story like "that guy was just an ass-hole," or "I shouldn't think that way about people." I don't know how to describe the interactions with emotions in this state except to say that they come from a deeper place. If the body needs to act it will.
I remember being in that state during a group therapy session many years ago. The therapist commented to me after that I seemed more present than ever. I know I spoke because someone jumped me for not speaking. But usually I rehearse what I'm about to say in my head a thousand times before I say it. I don't remember what I said, but it was raw, unrehearsed. It took the person by surprise.
Anyways, I thought I'd share that because this is the direction of my path nowadays. I offer this to others as a trail mark. I'm done with intellectualizing or mentation as Reefs calls it. I do appreciate others folk's posts here and read them every day. Etolle has had some good ones, lately. He just lets it all hang out. I like that.
|
|
|
Mushin
Jan 8, 2019 13:01:54 GMT -5
Post by zendancer on Jan 8, 2019 13:01:54 GMT -5
This is a state I find myself in fairly often. It seems to happen as often now when I meditate as when I don't. I still prefer to meditate. It seems to slow the chatter down and has other pleasant outcomes that are not the subject of this post. Mushin is. I read here where folks who are"free," "Self Realized" appear content, happy, unburdened. I must not appear that way. I would say most folks seem concerned when I am in that state, mushin. My wife says there's a lack of affect. I don't react to anything. I do feel emotions, but they don't provoke thoughts, stories. There's no story like "that guy was just an ass-hole," or "I shouldn't think that way about people." I don't know how to describe the interactions with emotions in this state except to say that they come from a deeper place. If the body needs to act it will. I remember being in that state during a group therapy session many years ago. The therapist commented to me after that I seemed more present than ever. I know I spoke because someone jumped me for not speaking. But usually I rehearse what I'm about to say in my head a thousand times before I say it. I don't remember what I said, but it was raw, unrehearsed. It took the person by surprise. Anyways, I thought I'd share that because this is the direction of my path nowadays. I offer this to others as a trail mark. I'm done with intellectualizing or mentation as Reefs calls it. I do appreciate others folk's posts here and read them every day. Etolle has had some good ones, lately. He just lets it all hang out. I like that. An important question to ask is, "Who is in the state of mushin when it occurs, and who is in a non-mushin state when it's not occurring? As long as the illusion of separateness continues, it will feel as if things are happening to a person, an entity, a "me." But is there such an entity that reacts or doesn't react to whatever is happening? Is there an entity who has experiences or realizations? This is what self-inquiry is all about. If the illusion of selfhood is penetrated, then it won't matter what states of mind, experiences, or realizations occur; it will be known that they are not happening to a someone. If the conventional sense of selfhood vanishes, inside and outside become one. Afterwards, there will be what we might call "a utilitarian sense of identity," but it will not be anything like the visceral sense of selfhood that most people feel. There will only be the flow and suchness of THIS. The first line of "Moby Di*k" should have read, "You may call me Ishmael, but don't imagine that that's who I am." When someone asked Ramana on his deathbed, "Master, are you leaving us?" he replied, "Where could I possibly go?" He wasn't referring to a body/mind organism. He was referring to THIS, his true self.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Mushin
Jan 8, 2019 13:28:36 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2019 13:28:36 GMT -5
This is a state I find myself in fairly often. It seems to happen as often now when I meditate as when I don't. I still prefer to meditate. It seems to slow the chatter down and has other pleasant outcomes that are not the subject of this post. Mushin is. I read here where folks who are"free," "Self Realized" appear content, happy, unburdened. I must not appear that way. I would say most folks seem concerned when I am in that state, mushin. My wife says there's a lack of affect. I don't react to anything. I do feel emotions, but they don't provoke thoughts, stories. There's no story like "that guy was just an ass-hole," or "I shouldn't think that way about people." I don't know how to describe the interactions with emotions in this state except to say that they come from a deeper place. If the body needs to act it will. I remember being in that state during a group therapy session many years ago. The therapist commented to me after that I seemed more present than ever. I know I spoke because someone jumped me for not speaking. But usually I rehearse what I'm about to say in my head a thousand times before I say it. I don't remember what I said, but it was raw, unrehearsed. It took the person by surprise. Anyways, I thought I'd share that because this is the direction of my path nowadays. I offer this to others as a trail mark. I'm done with intellectualizing or mentation as Reefs calls it. I do appreciate others folk's posts here and read them every day. Etolle has had some good ones, lately. He just lets it all hang out. I like that. An important question to ask is, "Who is in the state of mushin when it occurs, and who is in a non-mushin state when it's not occurring? As long as the illusion of separateness continues, it will feel as if things are happening to a person, an entity, a "me." But is there such an entity that reacts or doesn't react to whatever is happening? Is there an entity who has experiences or realizations? This is what self-inquiry is all about. If the illusion of selfhood is penetrated, then it won't matter what states of mind, experiences, or realizations occur; it will be known that they are not happening to a someone. If the conventional sense of selfhood vanishes, inside and outside become one. Afterwards, there will be what we might call "a utilitarian sense of identity," but it will not be anything like the visceral sense of selfhood that most people feel. There will only be the flow and suchness of THIS. The first line of "Moby Di*k" should have read, "You may call me Ishmael, but don't imagine that that's who I am." When someone asked Ramana on his deathbed, "Master, are you leaving us?" he replied, "Where could I possibly go?" He wasn't referring to a body/mind organism. He was referring to THIS, his true self. I have no interest in asking that question in that state or out of it. It doesn't matter. I have no opinion about being a person or not being a person, identifying with the body or not identifying with the body. Quite satisfied without asking it. Even if I know I'm not this body, I still walk my dogs, clean the bird cages, scrub the tubs and toilets, pick up dog crap, eat good meals, bike ride, make love etc., live.Why ask that question when the answer is obvious. Who is asking can never answer, any answer is not who I am, because who I am is observing whatever answer is given.
|
|
|
Mushin
Jan 8, 2019 18:35:30 GMT -5
Post by zendancer on Jan 8, 2019 18:35:30 GMT -5
An important question to ask is, "Who is in the state of mushin when it occurs, and who is in a non-mushin state when it's not occurring? As long as the illusion of separateness continues, it will feel as if things are happening to a person, an entity, a "me." But is there such an entity that reacts or doesn't react to whatever is happening? Is there an entity who has experiences or realizations? This is what self-inquiry is all about. If the illusion of selfhood is penetrated, then it won't matter what states of mind, experiences, or realizations occur; it will be known that they are not happening to a someone. If the conventional sense of selfhood vanishes, inside and outside become one. Afterwards, there will be what we might call "a utilitarian sense of identity," but it will not be anything like the visceral sense of selfhood that most people feel. There will only be the flow and suchness of THIS. The first line of "Moby Di*k" should have read, "You may call me Ishmael, but don't imagine that that's who I am." When someone asked Ramana on his deathbed, "Master, are you leaving us?" he replied, "Where could I possibly go?" He wasn't referring to a body/mind organism. He was referring to THIS, his true self. I have no interest in asking that question in that state or out of it. It doesn't matter. I have no opinion about being a person or not being a person, identifying with the body or not identifying with the body. Quite satisfied without asking it. Even if I know I'm not this body, I still walk my dogs, clean the bird cages, scrub the tubs and toilets, pick up dog crap, eat good meals, bike ride, make love etc., live.Why ask that question when the answer is obvious. Who is asking can never answer, any answer is not who I am, because who I am is observing whatever answer is given. If the answer to the question is obvious, then obviously there's no need to ask it. FWIW, that isn't the case for most folks.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2019 11:35:12 GMT -5
So I got a puppy because my girl, Taz (ACD) lost her sister and was so depressed she refused to go on walks. This is my fourth ACD, they are incredibly intelligent, and extremely energetic. They require a lot of activity. We were prepared for that, but not prepared for her lack of bite inhibition. Mom must have lapsed, because this young lass bit me and my wife bloody on a daily basis. Taz had a hard time with her as well. She has elbow displasia so we can only let them get acquainted on leash. Though lately we've been letting them get to know each other off leash after we've thouroughly exhausted the puppy.
So much running with this pup, one of my knees swelled up. Couldn't bend or stretch out my right leg for weeks. No yoga or tai chi and sitting meditation was on a chair. Last night was the first night I was able to do my full routine, only very gingerly. Still had pain in that right knee when I tried the pigeon pose.
It felt so good to be able to do most of the things that keep me somewhat sane.
Btw, I am no Zen master, nor enlightened or SR. I'm no expert on Zen. I went to Zen Temple for a couple of years to sit. It was in Long Beach, CA, thirty years ago. The sensei was Japanese and practiced Soto Zen, but he was unorthodox and had been excommunicated from the sect. I still practice zazen daily. I do the sitting as described by the priests every time we sat. We would sit for half an hour, then a short bout of walking meditation, then sit again for half an hour. Except for adding a little yoga up front to loosen up before I sat as I got older, and doing a little tai chi after, I haven't changed a thing in my practice,except when injured of course.
After practice, we would sit and talk, mostly humorous stuff, joking around. There was never "philosophical" discussions like the ones here on this site. I asked sensei about satori once. He said satori was "very dumb, stupid." "O bakatari" he called it. I've read just one book on Zen, Watts' book. The priests at this Zen temple would tell me to burn all my books. If it's in a book, it's not Zen. They would say. Just remembered, I also read Merton's book. But it's not really about Zen.
One admonition that seemed constant at the Zen Temple was "no expectations and no illusions." We would chant the "Heart Sutra" before meditation, but I never really paid attention to the words, just enjoyed the sensations while chanting. It was never discussed.
Zen had a huge impact on my life because before my practice I was severely depressed and suffering from PTSD. My life was a constant struggle. I was suicidal. After Zen, all that changed. I can honestly say I was never depressed again. But there seemed to be no cause and effect. It just seemed to fade on its own over time. In other words, I was drawn to the practice for other reasons than to deal with my depression. I was in therapy for depression.
But I'd been in therapy for quite some time. After my meditation practice got going, I stopped therapy. Not trying to put therapy down. It kept me alive for many years.
Anyways just wanted to clear up some things. I am no expert on Zen or anything else. I apologize if that's how I came off.
I used to be an expert coding, but have forgotten much of that. Been retired for over four years.
|
|
|
Mushin
Jan 19, 2019 9:50:10 GMT -5
Post by zendancer on Jan 19, 2019 9:50:10 GMT -5
So I got a puppy because my girl, Taz (ACD) lost her sister and was so depressed she refused to go on walks. This is my fourth ACD, they are incredibly intelligent, and extremely energetic. They require a lot of activity. We were prepared for that, but not prepared for her lack of bite inhibition. Mom must have lapsed, because this young lass bit me and my wife bloody on a daily basis. Taz had a hard time with her as well. She has elbow displasia so we can only let them get acquainted on leash. Though lately we've been letting them get to know each other off leash after we've thouroughly exhausted the puppy. So much running with this pup, one of my knees swelled up. Couldn't bend or stretch out my right leg for weeks. No yoga or tai chi and sitting meditation was on a chair. Last night was the first night I was able to do my full routine, only very gingerly. Still had pain in that right knee when I tried the pigeon pose. It felt so good to be able to do most of the things that keep me somewhat sane. Btw, I am no Zen master, nor enlightened or SR. I'm no expert on Zen. I went to Zen Temple for a couple of years to sit. It was in Long Beach, CA, thirty years ago. The sensei was Japanese and practiced Soto Zen, but he was unorthodox and had been excommunicated from the sect. I still practice zazen daily. I do the sitting as described by the priests every time we sat. We would sit for half an hour, then a short bout of walking meditation, then sit again for half an hour. Except for adding a little yoga up front to loosen up before I sat as I got older, and doing a little tai chi after, I haven't changed a thing in my practice,except when injured of course. After practice, we would sit and talk, mostly humorous stuff, joking around. There was never "philosophical" discussions like the ones here on this site. I asked sensei about satori once. He said satori was "very dumb, stupid." "O bakatari" he called it. I've read just one book on Zen, Watts' book. The priests at this Zen temple would tell me to burn all my books. If it's in a book, it's not Zen. They would say. Just remembered, I also read Merton's book. But it's not really about Zen. One admonition that seemed constant at the Zen Temple was "no expectations and no illusions." We would chant the "Heart Sutra" before meditation, but I never really paid attention to the words, just enjoyed the sensations while chanting. It was never discussed. Zen had a huge impact on my life because before my practice I was severely depressed and suffering from PTSD. My life was a constant struggle. I was suicidal. After Zen, all that changed. I can honestly say I was never depressed again. But there seemed to be no cause and effect. It just seemed to fade on its own over time. In other words, I was drawn to the practice for other reasons than to deal with my depression. I was in therapy for depression. But I'd been in therapy for quite some time. After my meditation practice got going, I stopped therapy. Not trying to put therapy down. It kept me alive for many years. Anyways just wanted to clear up some things. I am no expert on Zen or anything else. I apologize if that's how I came off. I used to be an expert coding, but have forgotten much of that. Been retired for over four years. Great story. In my case I had always been a happy camper doing my own thing and following my bliss. I was a big thinker, so I always lived in my head. I had lots of different interests, but a primary interest was trying to understand what's going on. I was sure that the conventional explanations from both science and religion couldn't be correct, but I didn't know how to find out any answers to my huge number of existential questions. Nothing ever made any sense to me until I read about the lives of Zen Masters. It was obvious to me that they understood what I wanted to know, but none of the early books about Zen ever explained what they understood or explained how they attained their understanding. I could see that they didn't interact with the world like other people, and they seemed to be saying the same kinds of things that Jesus was reported to have said in the NT. I probably read 40 books about Zen, but remained totally clueless. At the age of 40 I was under a lot of business-related stress, and had no peace of mind. At some point I realized that my mind talk was making the stress worse, but I had no idea how to stop or even slow down the mind talk. That's when I found a new book about Zen that described a simple meditation exercise that it claimed could result in a peaceful mind. I was so desperate, that i decided to give it a try. Within two weeks unusual things began to happen, and I gradually began to realize that I hadn't seen the real world in many years because i had been solely focused upon thoughts. As I increased the amount of time I spent meditating, it was like slowly coming out of a fog and discovering that there are two different worlds--an actual world and an imaginary mental world. Five months after I started meditating, I began entering deep states of samadhi during which everything disappeared except pure awareness, and this was followed by a big CC that changed me from being a scientist to a mystic. For the first time I understood that reality was not what I had been conditioned to think it was. I then knew that the truth was beyond intellectual comprehension. I joined a Zen group and began going on silent retreats because I could see that everything I wanted to know was "inside me" and obscured by habits of thought. The Zen group I joined was in the Rinzai tradition, so the teachers did lots of pointing (via dharma talks) and they used koans to push people to have more and more realizations. After a few years of sitting Zen, new existential questions arose, and one of those questions was, "How long is this kind of practice going to be necessary?" Most of the Zen people seemed to think that this was a lifelong practice that had to be continued forever, but that made no sense to me. I could see that many of my past questions had been resolved as a result of becoming silent and contemplative, but it seemed crazy to think that I'd need to pursue a formal practice forever. IOW, I had a list of things that I wanted to understand, and it seemed to me that if I could find the answers to the questions on my list, there wouldn't be any need to continue going on silent retreats or sitting on a cushion every day. I kept trying to understand what the fundamental element of meditation was that triggered insights. Eventually I realized that silent attentiveness was the key, and I also realized that the informal practice of ATA-T was just as effective as the formal practice of sitting on a cushion. This led to less and less time sitting, and more and more time spent silently looking at the world whenever I had free time (primarily when driving or hiking in the woods). After several years of ATA-T, I could stop thinking at any time, and the mind became quite silent. All of my existential questions were finally resolved except one final question that arose. Although I understood everything that I had wanted to understand, I still felt separate from the world around me. I had had many unity-conscious experiences of deep samadhi and "being in the zone," but afterwards, I always seemed to come back to a separate "me in here" looking at "a world out there." I wondered, "How is it possible to remain in a unity conscious state of mind permanently?" The answer suddenly appeared in August 1999 when I looked "inside" and discovered that the "me" had totally vanished without a trace. I then realized that there had never been a "me," and that I was reality, itself--THIS. That ended the spiritual search, and it ended the sense of there being an inside or outside. That was eighteen years ago, and although there were some further minor insights as various ideas fell away, nothing significant ever changed. I feel a lot of gratitude to the Zen tradition because it helped me get back to being a happy camper, find peace of mind, and resolve most of my existential questions. However, I later developed a greater affinity for the Advaita tradition because it's much less less austere in its approach and it seems to foster a greater degree of emotional openess and joie de vivre. I prefer teachers such as Mooji, Adya, Gangaji, Tolle, etc, because there's a lot more laughter and a lot less rigidity in their general approach. Silent attentiveness seems to be the key to having insights that can lead to freedom, and I never get tired of pointing people in that direction.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Mushin
Jan 19, 2019 12:16:39 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2019 12:16:39 GMT -5
So I got a puppy because my girl, Taz (ACD) lost her sister and was so depressed she refused to go on walks. This is my fourth ACD, they are incredibly intelligent, and extremely energetic. They require a lot of activity. We were prepared for that, but not prepared for her lack of bite inhibition. Mom must have lapsed, because this young lass bit me and my wife bloody on a daily basis. Taz had a hard time with her as well. She has elbow displasia so we can only let them get acquainted on leash. Though lately we've been letting them get to know each other off leash after we've thouroughly exhausted the puppy. So much running with this pup, one of my knees swelled up. Couldn't bend or stretch out my right leg for weeks. No yoga or tai chi and sitting meditation was on a chair. Last night was the first night I was able to do my full routine, only very gingerly. Still had pain in that right knee when I tried the pigeon pose. It felt so good to be able to do most of the things that keep me somewhat sane. Btw, I am no Zen master, nor enlightened or SR. I'm no expert on Zen. I went to Zen Temple for a couple of years to sit. It was in Long Beach, CA, thirty years ago. The sensei was Japanese and practiced Soto Zen, but he was unorthodox and had been excommunicated from the sect. I still practice zazen daily. I do the sitting as described by the priests every time we sat. We would sit for half an hour, then a short bout of walking meditation, then sit again for half an hour. Except for adding a little yoga up front to loosen up before I sat as I got older, and doing a little tai chi after, I haven't changed a thing in my practice,except when injured of course. After practice, we would sit and talk, mostly humorous stuff, joking around. There was never "philosophical" discussions like the ones here on this site. I asked sensei about satori once. He said satori was "very dumb, stupid." "O bakatari" he called it. I've read just one book on Zen, Watts' book. The priests at this Zen temple would tell me to burn all my books. If it's in a book, it's not Zen. They would say. Just remembered, I also read Merton's book. But it's not really about Zen. One admonition that seemed constant at the Zen Temple was "no expectations and no illusions." We would chant the "Heart Sutra" before meditation, but I never really paid attention to the words, just enjoyed the sensations while chanting. It was never discussed. Zen had a huge impact on my life because before my practice I was severely depressed and suffering from PTSD. My life was a constant struggle. I was suicidal. After Zen, all that changed. I can honestly say I was never depressed again. But there seemed to be no cause and effect. It just seemed to fade on its own over time. In other words, I was drawn to the practice for other reasons than to deal with my depression. I was in therapy for depression. But I'd been in therapy for quite some time. After my meditation practice got going, I stopped therapy. Not trying to put therapy down. It kept me alive for many years. Anyways just wanted to clear up some things. I am no expert on Zen or anything else. I apologize if that's how I came off. I used to be an expert coding, but have forgotten much of that. Been retired for over four years. Great story. In my case I had always been a happy camper doing my own thing and following my bliss. I was a big thinker, so I always lived in my head. I had lots of different interests, but a primary interest was trying to understand what's going on. I was sure that the conventional explanations from both science and religion couldn't be correct, but I didn't know how to find out any answers to my huge number of existential questions. Nothing ever made any sense to me until I read about the lives of Zen Masters. It was obvious to me that they understood what I wanted to know, but none of the early books about Zen ever explained what they understood or explained how they attained their understanding. I could see that they didn't interact with the world like other people, and they seemed to be saying the same kinds of things that Jesus was reported to have said in the NT. I probably read 40 books about Zen, but remained totally clueless. At the age of 40 I was under a lot of business-related stress, and had no peace of mind. At some point I realized that my mind talk was making the stress worse, but I had no idea how to stop or even slow down the mind talk. That's when I found a new book about Zen that described a simple meditation exercise that it claimed could result in a peaceful mind. I was so desperate, that i decided to give it a try. Within two weeks unusual things began to happen, and I gradually began to realize that I hadn't seen the real world in many years because i had been solely focused upon thoughts. As I increased the amount of time I spent meditating, it was like slowly coming out of a fog and discovering that there are two different worlds--an actual world and an imaginary mental world. Five months after I started meditating, I began entering deep states of samadhi during which everything disappeared except pure awareness, and this was followed by a big CC that changed me from being a scientist to a mystic. For the first time I understood that reality was not what I had been conditioned to think it was. I then knew that the truth was beyond intellectual comprehension. I joined a Zen group and began going on silent retreats because I could see that everything I wanted to know was "inside me" and obscured by habits of thought. The Zen group I joined was in the Rinzai tradition, so the teachers did lots of pointing (via dharma talks) and they used koans to push people to have more and more realizations. After a few years of sitting Zen, new existential questions arose, and one of those questions was, "How long is this kind of practice going to be necessary?" Most of the Zen people seemed to think that this was a lifelong practice that had to be continued forever, but that made no sense to me. I could see that many of my past questions had been resolved as a result of becoming silent and contemplative, but it seemed crazy to think that I'd need to pursue a formal practice forever. IOW, I had a list of things that I wanted to understand, and it seemed to me that if I could find the answers to the questions on my list, there wouldn't be any need to continue going on silent retreats or sitting on a cushion every day. I kept trying to understand what the fundamental element of meditation was that triggered insights. Eventually I realized that silent attentiveness was the key, and I also realized that the informal practice of ATA-T was just as effective as the formal practice of sitting on a cushion. This led to less and less time sitting, and more and more time spent silently looking at the world whenever I had free time (primarily when driving or hiking in the woods). After several years of ATA-T, I could stop thinking at any time, and the mind became quite silent. All of my existential questions were finally resolved except one final question that arose. Although I understood everything that I had wanted to understand, I still felt separate from the world around me. I had had many unity-conscious experiences of deep samadhi and "being in the zone," but afterwards, I always seemed to come back to a separate "me in here" looking at "a world out there." I wondered, "How is it possible to remain in a unity conscious state of mind permanently?" The answer suddenly appeared in August 1999 when I looked "inside" and discovered that the "me" had totally vanished without a trace. I then realized that there had never been a "me," and that I was reality, itself--THIS. That ended the spiritual search, and it ended the sense of there being an inside or outside. That was eighteen years ago, and although there were some further minor insights as various ideas fell away, nothing significant ever changed. I feel a lot of gratitude to the Zen tradition because it helped me get back to being a happy camper, find peace of mind, and resolve most of my existential questions. However, I later developed a greater affinity for the Advaita tradition because it's much less less austere in its approach and it seems to foster a greater degree of emotional openess and joie de vivre. I prefer teachers such as Mooji, Adya, Gangaji, Tolle, etc, because there's a lot more laughter and a lot less rigidity in their general approach. Silent attentiveness seems to be the key to having insights that can lead to freedom, and I never get tired of pointing people in that direction. I appreciate your story. Advaita to me seems like putting the cart before the horse. That's just me. I run into a lot of folks afflicted with the Advaita Superiority Syndrome (ASS) described by Jeff Foster where he tells of living with his brother, and the latter asking him to do the dishes to which Jeff replies "there are no dishes, there is no me, there is no you." It's basically a bizarre way to reject living, a clever parlor trick to shock others. I've seen quite a bit of this. But I do like listening to some of the satsang folk you mention and will continue to do so. And I also enjoy some of the folk who post here.
|
|
|
Mushin
Jan 19, 2019 14:55:47 GMT -5
Post by zendancer on Jan 19, 2019 14:55:47 GMT -5
[/quote]I appreciate your story. Advaita to me seems like putting the cart before the horse. That's just me. I run into a lot of folks afflicted with the Advaita Superiority Syndrome (ASS) described by Jeff Foster where he tells of living with his brother, and the latter asking him to do the dishes to which Jeff replies "there are no dishes, there is no me, there is no you." It's basically a bizarre way to reject living, a clever parlor trick to shock others. I've seen quite a bit of this. But I do like listening to some of the satsang folk you mention and will continue to do so. And I also enjoy some of the folk who post here.[/quote] I guess that's the advantage of having started with Zen and having ended with Advaita. haha. If nothing else, Zen people have to focus upon whatever is happening in the present moment and learn to accept that that's what's happening. In essence, they become very "down to earth," and eschew intellectualizing. They also become very action-oriented, which is best summed up in the Nike commercial admonition, "Just do it!" For that reason, Zen people almost never fall into the "Advaita trap" that Jeff Foster describes. Instead, they fall into the "Zen trap," and they often get attached to the rituals, practices, and beliefs about what being a Zen person should look like. That's why in "The Razor's Edge" the lama tells Larry, "The path (to freedom) is as narrow as the edge of razor." Fortunately, if one can keep from falling off the razor's edge long enough, the path, itself, is finally left behind and freedom is all that remains--just everyday life lived like a drop of water flowing wherever the current leads.
|
|
|
Mushin
Jan 20, 2019 16:27:36 GMT -5
Post by maxdprophet on Jan 20, 2019 16:27:36 GMT -5
Great story. In my case I had always been a happy camper doing my own thing and following my bliss. I was a big thinker, so I always lived in my head. I had lots of different interests, but a primary interest was trying to understand what's going on. I was sure that the conventional explanations from both science and religion couldn't be correct, but I didn't know how to find out any answers to my huge number of existential questions. Nothing ever made any sense to me until I read about the lives of Zen Masters. It was obvious to me that they understood what I wanted to know, but none of the early books about Zen ever explained what they understood or explained how they attained their understanding. I could see that they didn't interact with the world like other people, and they seemed to be saying the same kinds of things that Jesus was reported to have said in the NT. I probably read 40 books about Zen, but remained totally clueless. At the age of 40 I was under a lot of business-related stress, and had no peace of mind. At some point I realized that my mind talk was making the stress worse, but I had no idea how to stop or even slow down the mind talk. That's when I found a new book about Zen that described a simple meditation exercise that it claimed could result in a peaceful mind. I was so desperate, that i decided to give it a try. Within two weeks unusual things began to happen, and I gradually began to realize that I hadn't seen the real world in many years because i had been solely focused upon thoughts. As I increased the amount of time I spent meditating, it was like slowly coming out of a fog and discovering that there are two different worlds--an actual world and an imaginary mental world. Five months after I started meditating, I began entering deep states of samadhi during which everything disappeared except pure awareness, and this was followed by a big CC that changed me from being a scientist to a mystic. For the first time I understood that reality was not what I had been conditioned to think it was. I then knew that the truth was beyond intellectual comprehension. I joined a Zen group and began going on silent retreats because I could see that everything I wanted to know was "inside me" and obscured by habits of thought. The Zen group I joined was in the Rinzai tradition, so the teachers did lots of pointing (via dharma talks) and they used koans to push people to have more and more realizations. After a few years of sitting Zen, new existential questions arose, and one of those questions was, "How long is this kind of practice going to be necessary?" Most of the Zen people seemed to think that this was a lifelong practice that had to be continued forever, but that made no sense to me. I could see that many of my past questions had been resolved as a result of becoming silent and contemplative, but it seemed crazy to think that I'd need to pursue a formal practice forever. IOW, I had a list of things that I wanted to understand, and it seemed to me that if I could find the answers to the questions on my list, there wouldn't be any need to continue going on silent retreats or sitting on a cushion every day. I kept trying to understand what the fundamental element of meditation was that triggered insights. Eventually I realized that silent attentiveness was the key, and I also realized that the informal practice of ATA-T was just as effective as the formal practice of sitting on a cushion. This led to less and less time sitting, and more and more time spent silently looking at the world whenever I had free time (primarily when driving or hiking in the woods). After several years of ATA-T, I could stop thinking at any time, and the mind became quite silent. All of my existential questions were finally resolved except one final question that arose. Although I understood everything that I had wanted to understand, I still felt separate from the world around me. I had had many unity-conscious experiences of deep samadhi and "being in the zone," but afterwards, I always seemed to come back to a separate "me in here" looking at "a world out there." I wondered, "How is it possible to remain in a unity conscious state of mind permanently?" The answer suddenly appeared in August 1999 when I looked "inside" and discovered that the "me" had totally vanished without a trace. I then realized that there had never been a "me," and that I was reality, itself--THIS. That ended the spiritual search, and it ended the sense of there being an inside or outside. That was eighteen years ago, and although there were some further minor insights as various ideas fell away, nothing significant ever changed. I feel a lot of gratitude to the Zen tradition because it helped me get back to being a happy camper, find peace of mind, and resolve most of my existential questions. However, I later developed a greater affinity for the Advaita tradition because it's much less less austere in its approach and it seems to foster a greater degree of emotional openess and joie de vivre. I prefer teachers such as Mooji, Adya, Gangaji, Tolle, etc, because there's a lot more laughter and a lot less rigidity in their general approach. Silent attentiveness seems to be the key to having insights that can lead to freedom, and I never get tired of pointing people in that direction. I appreciate your story. Advaita to me seems like putting the cart before the horse. That's just me. I run into a lot of folks afflicted with the Advaita Superiority Syndrome (ASS) described by Jeff Foster where he tells of living with his brother, and the latter asking him to do the dishes to which Jeff replies "there are no dishes, there is no me, there is no you." It's basically a bizarre way to reject living, a clever parlor trick to shock others. I've seen quite a bit of this. But I do like listening to some of the satsang folk you mention and will continue to do so. And I also enjoy some of the folk who post here. I've never met a single person like that. You run into a lot of them? I must be in the wilderness.
|
|
|
Mushin
Jan 22, 2019 11:00:39 GMT -5
Post by zendancer on Jan 22, 2019 11:00:39 GMT -5
I appreciate your story. Advaita to me seems like putting the cart before the horse. That's just me. I run into a lot of folks afflicted with the Advaita Superiority Syndrome (ASS) described by Jeff Foster where he tells of living with his brother, and the latter asking him to do the dishes to which Jeff replies "there are no dishes, there is no me, there is no you." It's basically a bizarre way to reject living, a clever parlor trick to shock others. I've seen quite a bit of this. But I do like listening to some of the satsang folk you mention and will continue to do so. And I also enjoy some of the folk who post here. I've never met a single person like that. You run into a lot of them? I must be in the wilderness. I've never run into a single one either. The only person who I've seen use this approach is Tony Parsons on a video where he was using that approach to shock his audience in a attempt to stop their minds (as a way of triggering a realization). I remember some woman in the audience starting to talk about buying some red shoes, and Parsons interrupts her very forcefully and says, "No one has ever bought a pair of red shoes!" Haha! If the book, "Everyday Enlightenment" is accurate, Parsons has been quite successful using this approach. All teachers who point to THIS, have their own unique way of trying of stop peoples' minds and shock them out of the consensus paradigm. In one satsang Gangaji said, "Who you think you are can never be free, whole, sacred, or in love. Who you think you are is a thought or a story, only. Who you really are, however, is already free, whole, sacred, and in love." That's just a different way of pointing to the same thing.
Mooji has lots of creative ways of doing this, but it often takes quite a while for the message to sink below the level of the intellect. I remember one Mooji video in which he expresses a lot of frustration at the fact that so many people attend his satsangs yet so few seem to wake up and get clear. He was probably just having a bad day. Adyashanti, Gangaji, and Tolle have dozens, if not hundreds, of students who have awakened, and I'd be surprised if Mooji hasn't also precipitated the awakening of hundreds, too. Maybe even thousands.
The Soto Zen approach, by contrast, is to tell students to sit down, shut up, and become silent via zazen. This, too, works for some people. I can imagine some psychologist interested in ND doing a study at some point in the future in an effort to determine which approach has the highest percentage of success.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Mushin
Jan 22, 2019 12:16:31 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2019 12:16:31 GMT -5
I've never met a single person like that. You run into a lot of them? I must be in the wilderness. I've never run into a single one either. The only person who I've seen use this approach is Tony Parsons on a video where he was using that approach to shock his audience in a attempt to stop their minds (as a way of triggering a realization). I remember some woman in the audience starting to talk about buying some red shoes, and Parsons interrupts her very forcefully and says, "No one has ever bought a pair of red shoes!" Haha! If the book, "Everyday Enlightenment" is accurate, Parsons has been quite successful using this approach. All teachers who point to THIS, have their own unique way of trying of stop peoples' minds and shock them out of the consensus paradigm. In one satsang Gangaji said, "Who you think you are can never be free, whole, sacred, or in love. Who you think you are is a thought or a story, only. Who you really are, however, is already free, whole, sacred, and in love." That's just a different way of pointing to the same thing.
Mooji has lots of creative ways of doing this, but it often takes quite a while for the message to sink below the level of the intellect. I remember one Mooji video in which he expresses a lot of frustration at the fact that so many people attend his satsangs yet so few seem to wake up and get clear. He was probably just having a bad day. Adyashanti, Gangaji, and Tolle have dozens, if not hundreds, of students who have awakened, and I'd be surprised if Mooji hasn't also precipitated the awakening of hundreds, too. Maybe even thousands.
The Soto Zen approach, by contrast, is to tell students to sit down, shut up, and become silent via zazen. This, too, works for some people. I can imagine some psychologist interested in ND doing a study at some point in the future in an effort to determine which approach has the highest percentage of success. The character in the video is unfamiliar? Or awake?
|
|
|
Mushin
Jan 22, 2019 17:44:30 GMT -5
Post by zendancer on Jan 22, 2019 17:44:30 GMT -5
I've never run into a single one either. The only person who I've seen use this approach is Tony Parsons on a video where he was using that approach to shock his audience in a attempt to stop their minds (as a way of triggering a realization). I remember some woman in the audience starting to talk about buying some red shoes, and Parsons interrupts her very forcefully and says, "No one has ever bought a pair of red shoes!" Haha! If the book, "Everyday Enlightenment" is accurate, Parsons has been quite successful using this approach. All teachers who point to THIS, have their own unique way of trying of stop peoples' minds and shock them out of the consensus paradigm. In one satsang Gangaji said, "Who you think you are can never be free, whole, sacred, or in love. Who you think you are is a thought or a story, only. Who you really are, however, is already free, whole, sacred, and in love." That's just a different way of pointing to the same thing.
Mooji has lots of creative ways of doing this, but it often takes quite a while for the message to sink below the level of the intellect. I remember one Mooji video in which he expresses a lot of frustration at the fact that so many people attend his satsangs yet so few seem to wake up and get clear. He was probably just having a bad day. Adyashanti, Gangaji, and Tolle have dozens, if not hundreds, of students who have awakened, and I'd be surprised if Mooji hasn't also precipitated the awakening of hundreds, too. Maybe even thousands.
The Soto Zen approach, by contrast, is to tell students to sit down, shut up, and become silent via zazen. This, too, works for some people. I can imagine some psychologist interested in ND doing a study at some point in the future in an effort to determine which approach has the highest percentage of success. The character in the video is unfamiliar? Or awake? Yes, this is the Advaita trap that Foster and others have talked about, but I've never met anyone who talked or acted like that. I've attended satsangs with several different Advaita teachers, and I've never seen anyone talk or act like that during any of those retreats. Foster is the only person I know about who apparently fell into this trap, and later realized what had happened. He implies that this is a common trap, but I've never seen it exhibited.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Mushin
Jan 22, 2019 23:15:25 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2019 23:15:25 GMT -5
The character in the video is unfamiliar? Or awake? Yes, this is the Advaita trap that Foster and others have talked about, but I've never met anyone who talked or acted like that. I've attended satsangs with several different Advaita teachers, and I've never seen anyone talk or act like that during any of those retreats. Foster is the only person I know about who apparently fell into this trap, and later realized what had happened. He implies that this is a common trap, but I've never seen it exhibited. I also think it's quite prevalent. But its pointless to debate that.
|
|
|
Mushin
Jan 23, 2019 7:52:05 GMT -5
Post by zendancer on Jan 23, 2019 7:52:05 GMT -5
[/quote]I also think it's quite prevalent. But its pointless to debate that. [/quote]
I have no interest in debating the issue, but I'm genuinely curious; how many people have you personally met who talked or acted like that?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Mushin
Jan 23, 2019 10:08:38 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2019 10:08:38 GMT -5
I have no interest in debating the issue, but I'm genuinely curious; how many people have you personally met who talked or acted like that? I also think it's quite prevalent. But its pointless to debate that. Doesn't the question perpetuate the debate?
|
|