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Post by lolly on Jan 25, 2019 7:34:56 GMT -5
Only to say there are different contexts of cause and effect like physical billiard balls and the 'kamma effect', both of which suggest there is such a thing as cause and effect, actions and consequences etc. I'm not denying there is cause/effect. I'm saying all the causes and all the effects are part of creation in it's wholeness and cause/effect does not happen on the billiard table. Well, that's right because if you followed cause and effect back from Billard balls to cue to human... and so on... it is an infinite regression which leads to, 'what caused the universe'? And you start watching Degrasse-Tyson lectures on you-tube... |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jan 25, 2019 11:37:06 GMT -5
Only to say there are different contexts of cause and effect like physical billiard balls and the 'kamma effect', both of which suggest there is such a thing as cause and effect, actions and consequences etc. I'm not denying there is cause/effect. I'm saying all the causes and all the effects are part of creation in it's wholeness and cause/effect does not happen on the billiard table. I see you've read Hume. |
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Post by enigma on Jan 25, 2019 11:49:55 GMT -5
I'm not denying there is cause/effect. I'm saying all the causes and all the effects are part of creation in it's wholeness and cause/effect does not happen on the billiard table. Well, that's right because if you followed cause and effect back from Billard balls to cue to human... and so on... it is an infinite regression which leads to, 'what caused the universe'? And you start watching Degrasse-Tyson lectures on you-tube... Well, hopefully nothing as disastrous as that. The progression of God causing people causing billiard balls to move is used only to justify the false idea of cause/effect. The fact of the regression being infinite should be a clue to that falsity. All is sourced directly from Consciousness. (Or whatever you wish to call it) |
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Post by enigma on Jan 25, 2019 11:52:04 GMT -5
I'm not denying there is cause/effect. I'm saying all the causes and all the effects are part of creation in it's wholeness and cause/effect does not happen on the billiard table. I see you've read Hume. No. This isn't philosophy. |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jan 25, 2019 21:15:56 GMT -5
No. This isn't philosophy. I think he gives the billiard example. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2019 10:33:22 GMT -5
No. This isn't philosophy. I think he gives the billiard example. Best explanation I've heard that dismisses cause and effect is the notion that time and space are inventions or contructs of mind. Think of it this way, the world, phenomena is like film on a reel. The bat hitting a ball only happens when the film is wound through the projector, and projected on the screen. In reality there is no bat hitting the ball just a strip of film where the bat appears to touch the ball, but there's only the appearance of cause and effect. These are interesting things to ponder until I stub my toe while absent mindedly walking through the maze of my office and then I'm back to cause and effect are very REAL. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 10, 2019 17:26:03 GMT -5
Cause and effect has everything to do with mass in the physical context, but there's cause and affect in kamma theory which is about intent and consequence, which has something to do with consciousness. Cause and effect, as well as LOA, is camouflage (or part of the camouflage). In the smaller context it is a force to be reckoned with (that's why they call it the law of attraction and the law of karma). In the largest context, however, it is just one of many possible models of explaining the process of creation. You often hear peeps here talk about how creation is neither random nor predetermined but a spontaneous unfolding and how there is a certain order to this nevertheless. Quantum physics has some very interesting theories in that regard. But the model that seems to describe this spontaneous and yet orderly unfolding of creation best (both physical and non-physical) is LOA. It's only "a force to be reckoned with" IF SR has not happened....thus, IF cause/effect has not been seen through. If SR is the case, cause and effect is just an idea that gets engaged with...there's no more buying in to the appearance of it. It's been seen through. |
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Post by zendancer on Mar 10, 2019 21:04:15 GMT -5
Cause and effect, as well as LOA, is camouflage (or part of the camouflage). In the smaller context it is a force to be reckoned with (that's why they call it the law of attraction and the law of karma). In the largest context, however, it is just one of many possible models of explaining the process of creation. You often hear peeps here talk about how creation is neither random nor predetermined but a spontaneous unfolding and how there is a certain order to this nevertheless. Quantum physics has some very interesting theories in that regard. But the model that seems to describe this spontaneous and yet orderly unfolding of creation best (both physical and non-physical) is LOA. It's only "a force to be reckoned with" IF SR has not happened....thus, IF cause/effect has not been seen through. If SR is the case, cause and effect is just an idea that gets engaged with...there's no more buying in to the appearance of it. It's been seen through. Agreed, but cause and effect and many other similar other illusions can be seen through prior to SR. A CC will do the trick even if one still imagines that it was a "me" who had the CC. |
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Post by satchitananda on Mar 10, 2019 21:45:26 GMT -5
It's only "a force to be reckoned with" IF SR has not happened....thus, IF cause/effect has not been seen through. If SR is the case, cause and effect is just an idea that gets engaged with...there's no more buying in to the appearance of it. It's been seen through. Agreed, but cause and effect and many other similar other illusions can be seen through prior to SR. A CC will do the trick even if one still imagines that it was a "me" who had the CC. I don't know what it means to see through cause and effect. Prior to realization if I drop the glass it will smash on the floor. The same will happen after realization. There is no new information. |
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Post by zendancer on Mar 10, 2019 22:01:20 GMT -5
Agreed, but cause and effect and many other similar other illusions can be seen through prior to SR. A CC will do the trick even if one still imagines that it was a "me" who had the CC. I don't know what it means to see through cause and effect. Prior to realization if I drop the glass it will smash on the floor. The same will happen after realization. There is no new information. Selfhood is probably the most significant cognitive illusion, but thingness, time, space, cause/effect, volition, etc. can be similarly seen through. Seeing that time is a cognitive grid doesn't mean that one won't look at a clock regarding a scheduled appointment, but the mental nature of the grid is then understood. Watts used to use the example of someone who sees a cat walking past a slatted fence. First, one sees a head, then a body, and then a tail and concludes that a head causes a tail to appear. Seeing through the illusion of cause and effect doesn't mean that a dropped glass won't shatter on the floor; it just means that the idea that one discrete event causes another discrete event to occur is understood in a more unified way. |
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Post by satchitananda on Mar 10, 2019 22:22:01 GMT -5
I don't know what it means to see through cause and effect. Prior to realization if I drop the glass it will smash on the floor. The same will happen after realization. There is no new information. Selfhood is probably the most significant cognitive illusion, but thingness, time, space, cause/effect, volition, etc. can be similarly seen through. Seeing that time is a cognitive grid doesn't mean that one won't look at a clock regarding a scheduled appointment, but the mental nature of the grid is then understood. Watts used to use the example of someone who sees a cat walking past a slatted fence. First, one sees a head, then a body, and then a tail and concludes that a head causes a tail to appear. Seeing through the illusion of cause and effect doesn't mean that a dropped glass won't shatter on the floor; it just means that the idea that one discrete event causes another discrete event to occur is understood in a more unified way. Sorry I don't even know what that means. The appearance of cause and effect has nothing to do with peace of mind. There is a unity which also gives rise to form and diversity. There is the dissolving of separation between the limited and unlimited into one unified whole but that doesn't mean to say there is something more to understand about cause and effect. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 10, 2019 22:24:30 GMT -5
It's only "a force to be reckoned with" IF SR has not happened....thus, IF cause/effect has not been seen through. If SR is the case, cause and effect is just an idea that gets engaged with...there's no more buying in to the appearance of it. It's been seen through. Agreed, but cause and effect and many other similar other illusions can be seen through prior to SR. A CC will do the trick even if one still imagines that it was a "me" who had the CC. Okay. The point i was intent on making there was that once cause/effect is seen through, it's no longer a force to be reckoned with.
And as I've said in the past, a cosmic consciousness experience, even though it may correlate with a realization is not the actual realization nor it is an actual 'cause' of realization. It's just that; A correlated happening. Mind's attempt to process an absence...seeing that cannot actually be grasped by mind...seeing that is beyond 'experience.'
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Post by Deleted on Mar 10, 2019 22:30:14 GMT -5
I don't know what it means to see through cause and effect. Prior to realization if I drop the glass it will smash on the floor. The same will happen after realization. There is no new information. Selfhood is probably the most significant cognitive illusion, but thingness, time, space, cause/effect, volition, etc. can be similarly seen through. Seeing that time is a cognitive grid doesn't mean that one won't look at a clock regarding a scheduled appointment, but the mental nature of the grid is then understood. Watts used to use the example of someone who sees a cat walking past a slatted fence. First, one sees a head, then a body, and then a tail and concludes that a head causes a tail to appear. Seeing through the illusion of cause and effect doesn't mean that a dropped glass won't shatter on the floor; it just means that the idea that one discrete event causes another discrete event to occur is understood in a more unified way. Well said. It's that seeing that there really are no 'discrete events' (separate events) that's important. And what that means is seeing that it's all one unified movement...nothing within the dream actually being an actual cause/catalyst to anything else arising in the dream. The cause/catalyst is beyond the dream...that which gives rise to the dream... Consciousness itself. |
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Post by satchitananda on Mar 10, 2019 22:33:42 GMT -5
Selfhood is probably the most significant cognitive illusion, but thingness, time, space, cause/effect, volition, etc. can be similarly seen through. Seeing that time is a cognitive grid doesn't mean that one won't look at a clock regarding a scheduled appointment, but the mental nature of the grid is then understood. Watts used to use the example of someone who sees a cat walking past a slatted fence. First, one sees a head, then a body, and then a tail and concludes that a head causes a tail to appear. Seeing through the illusion of cause and effect doesn't mean that a dropped glass won't shatter on the floor; it just means that the idea that one discrete event causes another discrete event to occur is understood in a more unified way. Well said. It's that seeing that there really are no 'discrete events' (separate events) that's important. And what that means is seeing that it's all one unified movement...nothing within the dream actually being an actual cause/catalyst to anything else arising in the dream. The cause/catalyst is beyond the dream...that which gives rise to the dream... Consciousness itself. Let's not get carried away. There's a difference between feeding your dog and picking up the kids from school no matter how unified you feel. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 10, 2019 22:34:08 GMT -5
Selfhood is probably the most significant cognitive illusion, but thingness, time, space, cause/effect, volition, etc. can be similarly seen through. Seeing that time is a cognitive grid doesn't mean that one won't look at a clock regarding a scheduled appointment, but the mental nature of the grid is then understood. Watts used to use the example of someone who sees a cat walking past a slatted fence. First, one sees a head, then a body, and then a tail and concludes that a head causes a tail to appear. Seeing through the illusion of cause and effect doesn't mean that a dropped glass won't shatter on the floor; it just means that the idea that one discrete event causes another discrete event to occur is understood in a more unified way. Sorry I don't even know what that means. The appearance of cause and effect has nothing to do with peace of mind. There is a unity which also gives rise to form and diversity. There is the dissolving of separation between the limited and unlimited into one unified whole but that doesn't mean to say there is something more to understand about cause and effect. The 'appearance' of such doesn't, but taking that appearance for something more than just an appearance, does. If one is seeing actual cause/catalyst within the realm of appearance/experience, he's obviously blind to the greater Truth that it's all one unified movement. One happening causing another is itself part and parcel of the realm of appearance. |
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