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Post by etolle on Dec 24, 2018 21:01:14 GMT -5
as time goes on it's plain that I have no beliefs at all and that sure is different..not just religion or politics but good bad right wrong,etc..it's an entirely new way of seeing life. it is also the most natural I've ever felt... said all that to get to this. are all religious folks delusional?..i know some wonderful "Christians" but they think these stories in their head (tolle) are who they are.lol…..wish everyone merry Christmas. i'm here with the little dog (mia) cookin a big ham
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Post by etolle on Dec 24, 2018 23:00:09 GMT -5
iow aren't all beliefs mind identification?...if it is not within my experience
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Xiao
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Post by Xiao on Dec 25, 2018 2:46:14 GMT -5
It's easy, once removed from the world-view of Christianity or another religion, to see the beliefs of the masses as "delusional" - and it's not entirely wrong. Yet, I'd say be careful with this line of thinking, as the mind can grab at it as a chance to sprout of whole new line of beliefs; namely, that "I know the truth is beyond words" and "the truth is seen clearly to me but these people haven't a clue" etc. Not saying you are specifically doing this, but I find a lot of people who claim to have no beliefs end up having quite a few unquestioned ones.
That being said, I can have a hundred beliefs and still be free. If I have seen that what I am is beyond language as THIS very presence/awareness, then why would beliefs in the mind, which is a mere speck of being, be limiting? It is a natural functioning of the mind.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 25, 2018 3:18:47 GMT -5
It's easy, once removed from the world-view of Christianity or another religion, to see the beliefs of the masses as "delusional" - and it's not entirely wrong. Yet, I'd say be careful with this line of thinking, as the mind can grab at it as a chance to sprout of whole new line of beliefs; namely, that "I know the truth is beyond words" and "the truth is seen clearly to me but these people haven't a clue" etc. Not saying you are specifically doing this, but I find a lot of people who claim to have no beliefs end up having quite a few unquestioned ones. That being said, I can have a hundred beliefs and still be free. If I have seen that what I am is beyond language as THIS very presence/awareness, then why would beliefs in the mind, which is a mere speck of being, be limiting? It is a natural functioning of the mind. Making the I am the same as THIS is just one of subtle ways in which mind creates an exclusion.
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Xiao
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Post by Xiao on Dec 25, 2018 3:20:35 GMT -5
It's easy, once removed from the world-view of Christianity or another religion, to see the beliefs of the masses as "delusional" - and it's not entirely wrong. Yet, I'd say be careful with this line of thinking, as the mind can grab at it as a chance to sprout of whole new line of beliefs; namely, that "I know the truth is beyond words" and "the truth is seen clearly to me but these people haven't a clue" etc. Not saying you are specifically doing this, but I find a lot of people who claim to have no beliefs end up having quite a few unquestioned ones. That being said, I can have a hundred beliefs and still be free. If I have seen that what I am is beyond language as THIS very presence/awareness, then why would beliefs in the mind, which is a mere speck of being, be limiting? It is a natural functioning of the mind. Making the I am the same as THIS is just one of subtle ways in which mind creates an exclusion. As everybody uses these terms slightly differently, maybe you could elaborate a bit on what "the I am" and "THIS" mean to you?
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Xiao
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Post by Xiao on Dec 25, 2018 3:23:33 GMT -5
It's easy, once removed from the world-view of Christianity or another religion, to see the beliefs of the masses as "delusional" - and it's not entirely wrong. Yet, I'd say be careful with this line of thinking, as the mind can grab at it as a chance to sprout of whole new line of beliefs; namely, that "I know the truth is beyond words" and "the truth is seen clearly to me but these people haven't a clue" etc. Not saying you are specifically doing this, but I find a lot of people who claim to have no beliefs end up having quite a few unquestioned ones. That being said, I can have a hundred beliefs and still be free. If I have seen that what I am is beyond language as THIS very presence/awareness, then why would beliefs in the mind, which is a mere speck of being, be limiting? It is a natural functioning of the mind. Making the I am the same as THIS is just one of subtle ways in which mind creates an exclusion. Apologies for double-posting. For sake of clarity, I mean that what you are is beyond the limits of language, but is in all ways inclusive in regards to language. Language is a part of this, but it can not adequately describe it. As 老子 puts it, "道可道非常道,名可名非常名" (That which can be named is not the eternal dao.)
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 25, 2018 3:30:17 GMT -5
Making the I am the same as THIS is just one of subtle ways in which mind creates an exclusion. As everybody uses these terms slightly differently, maybe you could elaborate a bit on what "the I am" and "THIS" mean to you? The I Am is alive and dynamic, and inclusive. THIS, however is used as a profound pointer. Be careful not to make any exclusions with either idea.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 25, 2018 3:42:38 GMT -5
Making the I am the same as THIS is just one of subtle ways in which mind creates an exclusion. Apologies for double-posting. For sake of clarity, I mean that what you are is beyond the limits of language, but is in all ways inclusive in regards to language. Language is a part of this, but it can not adequately describe it. As 老子 puts it, "道可道非常道,名可名非常名" (That which can be named is not the eternal dao.) Yeah, words can be handled in advanced ways by some. Becoming accomplished at detecting those that write and speak from the same inner being that you are, will never fail you.
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Xiao
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Post by Xiao on Dec 25, 2018 5:15:03 GMT -5
Apologies for double-posting. For sake of clarity, I mean that what you are is beyond the limits of language, but is in all ways inclusive in regards to language. Language is a part of this, but it can not adequately describe it. As 老子 puts it, "道可道非常道,名可名非常名" (That which can be named is not the eternal dao.) Yeah, words can be handled in advanced ways by some. Becoming accomplished at detecting those that write and speak from the same inner being that you are, will never fail you. Agreed. In my experience, staying with non-conceptual reality and "acting" (read: letting life live through and as me, which is always already the case) from that place is the ideal state of things, with dips into conceptuality when necessary (teaching or speaking to others about THIS would be an example).
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Post by etolle on Dec 25, 2018 6:42:51 GMT -5
It's easy, once removed from the world-view of Christianity or another religion, to see the beliefs of the masses as "delusional" - and it's not entirely wrong. Yet, I'd say be careful with this line of thinking, as the mind can grab at it as a chance to sprout of whole new line of beliefs; namely, that "I know the truth is beyond words" and "the truth is seen clearly to me but these people haven't a clue" etc. Not saying you are specifically doing this, but I find a lot of people who claim to have no beliefs end up having quite a few unquestioned ones. That being said, I can have a hundred beliefs and still be free. If I have seen that what I am is beyond language as THIS very presence/awareness, then why would beliefs in the mind, which is a mere speck of being, be limiting? It is a natural functioning of the mind. when you say "it's not entirely wrong" can you be more specific?...also when you say "the truth is seen clearly to me but these people haven't a clue,etc,is the way I was raised/conditioned ( Baptist fundamentalist) … I am 100% free from thinkin somebody is wrong and I am right and all that but..i'm 66 yrs old and recently my daughter started me a facebook acct. have been in contact with folks I haven't talked to in 40 to 50 yrs and it seems that every other word out of their mouth is pray for him them that,the lord this the lord that etc,and i'm tryin to find out how to be tns and still interact with them without offending......the last part of yer reply,"i can have a hundred beliefs and still be free. if I have seen that what I am is beyond language as this very presence/awareness,gives me a better understanding of religious folk....here is what i'm not getting. how can a thought,idea,concept,belief,etc be real?..why would the authentic natural self need a belief?.this is not coming from ego. I do not want to be right and don't need anybody to be wrong just trying to understand or find common ground....will appreciate any feedback on this topic and merry Christmas to you all.
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Post by etolle on Dec 25, 2018 6:58:17 GMT -5
Apologies for double-posting. For sake of clarity, I mean that what you are is beyond the limits of language, but is in all ways inclusive in regards to language. Language is a part of this, but it can not adequately describe it. As 老子 puts it, "道可道非常道,名可名非常名" (That which can be named is not the eternal dao.) Yeah, words can be handled in advanced ways by some. Becoming accomplished at detecting those that write and speak from the same inner being that you are, will never fail you. jaspa,becoming accomplished at detecting those that write and speak from the same inner being that you are is exactly what i'm talkin about..to me it boils down to this. you are functioning from tns,or whatever we want to call it or you are reacting to the conditioned voice in the head. that is my experience...until the last yr or so I thought that voice was me.lol
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Post by Reefs on Dec 25, 2018 8:11:26 GMT -5
as time goes on it's plain that I have no beliefs at all and that sure is different..not just religion or politics but good bad right wrong,etc..it's an entirely new way of seeing life. it is also the most natural I've ever felt... said all that to get to this. are all religious folks delusional?..i know some wonderful "Christians" but they think these stories in their head (tolle) are who they are.lol…..wish everyone merry Christmas. i'm here with the little dog (mia) cookin a big ham A-H say a belief is just a thought you keep thinking. Or story you keep telling yourself. Being fully present, as in flow, there’s no story. I'm currently reading Derren Brown's book Happy. And he has some good points about stories/beliefs (he uses the term 'templates' in the mind- an interesting choice of words!). I'll start a separate thread about this some time later. Maybe also another one on flow. Merry Christmas!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 25, 2018 8:15:22 GMT -5
Yeah, words can be handled in advanced ways by some. Becoming accomplished at detecting those that write and speak from the same inner being that you are, will never fail you. jaspa,becoming accomplished at detecting those that write and speak from the same inner being that you are is exactly what i'm talkin about..to me it boils down to this. you are functioning from tns,or whatever we want to call it or you are reacting to the conditioned voice in the head. that is my experience...until the last yr or so I thought that voice was me.lol Cool, yeah, functioning from inside your nervous system is a very sane way to live. That's where the magic is And what people mean when they say 'where they're looking from'. And yeah the shadow isn't meant to be believed in as an identity, it's more a matter of giving yourself some substance in an apparently physical reality.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 25, 2018 8:54:33 GMT -5
as time goes on it's plain that I have no beliefs at all and that sure is different..not just religion or politics but good bad right wrong,etc..it's an entirely new way of seeing life. it is also the most natural I've ever felt... said all that to get to this. are all religious folks delusional?..i know some wonderful "Christians" but they think these stories in their head (tolle) are who they are.lol…..wish everyone merry Christmas. i'm here with the little dog (mia) cookin a big ham I like your post, a new diection. But doesn't the post, the question it asks, imply a belief? The belief that having no beliefs is the way. I find myself thinking often that the goal of enlightenment is not unlike the goal of heaven. I feel the hypocrite at times. When I look askance at Chistians, I keep hearing words from the religion of my childhood, "there but for the grace of God go I." I have come to view words, language, as the main obstacle to expressing what I am. They seem to construct barriers and fall short with few exceptions like "love your enemies," "do good to those that harm you," and some others that obliterate separation.
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Post by andrew on Dec 25, 2018 9:47:13 GMT -5
as time goes on it's plain that I have no beliefs at all and that sure is different..not just religion or politics but good bad right wrong,etc..it's an entirely new way of seeing life. it is also the most natural I've ever felt... said all that to get to this. are all religious folks delusional?..i know some wonderful "Christians" but they think these stories in their head (tolle) are who they are.lol…..wish everyone merry Christmas. i'm here with the little dog (mia) cookin a big ham A-H say a belief is just a thought you keep thinking. Or story you keep telling yourself. Being fully present, as in flow, there’s no story. I'm currently reading Derren Brown's book Happy. And he has some good points about stories/beliefs (he uses the term 'templates' in the mind- an interesting choice of words!). I'll start a separate thread about this some time later. Maybe also another one on flow. Merry Christmas! Some of his documentaries have been brilliant, I used to talk about them a bit on here. I skimmed his book in the library while waiting for my kids to pick out books. it looked pretty alright to me.
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