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Post by justlikeyou on Dec 3, 2018 16:52:48 GMT -5
May 10, 1980
Maharaj: How did I get to the truth that I prevail everlastingly? By meditating on the meditator, by "I Amness" merging into "I Airiness". Only then did I understand what my true nature is. The great Sages meditated in the same way. Nobody had told me how to do it. I did not seek this knowledge externally. It sprouted within me.
I meditated like the Sages and saw a vision. Initially, there was space, and in the space I saw the principles embodied. Actually, they have no bodies, but in my vision they had bodies. I called them Prakriti and Purusha, the male and female aspects of cosmic consciousness. Until the union of Prakriti and Purusha, the dynamic, all-pervading consciousness lay in a dormant state. In the union of the male and female aspects, emissions were planted in the female of these figures. When these emissions merged in the womb they started taking form. After nine months of gestation, an infant was delivered. That consciousness which was planted in the womb was the causal body, the "lingadeha". In that "lingadeha", the knowledge "I Am" was in a dormant condition. This is what I saw in meditation.
Questioner: How did we lose this pure consciousness state?
M: Every being experiences the Isvara state, either directly or potentially, but he is so wrapped up in this objective world that he loses his identity. You must know what this "I Am" principle is. It appears spontaneously and with its appearance begins the riddle of conceptual life.
Q: How do I start this search for my Self?
M: Start from the very beginning. In this gross world I began with my parents, because I knew full well that my principle was already dwelling there in the collection of their bodily elements out of which I emanated. But I came to the conclusion that I could not be that principle which came from the mother's body. There is nobody here who is 100 years old. Does that mean that 100 years ago you did not exist?
Q: I don't know.
M: The one who said, "I don't know" must have been there; in short, you were not like this, but you must have been something. You must comprehend this correctly. 100 years back I was not like this; so, the one pointing this out must have been there. You did, and do, exist unto eternity. What I am expounding does not relate to worldly knowledge. You do not want to give up either worldly knowledge or so-called spiritual knowledge, and yet, through these worldly concepts, you want to understand the riddle of your existence, and that is precisely why you are not able to understand. In truth, your state is one of Absolute bliss, not this phenomenal state. In that non-phenomenal state you are full of bliss but there is no experience of its presence. In that state there is no trace of misery or unhappiness, only unalloyed bliss. What am I talking about?
Q: Ananda (bliss).
M: Because you want some satisfaction according to your own concepts, you try to qualify unalloyed bliss. The term "ananda" has significance only when it signifies that the bodily beingness is available to experience it. When you are in deep sleep and you start to see forms, you are actually dreaming. Aren't those dream forms coming from your own beingness? Whatever you see, even in the waking state, doesn't it come from your own beingness which is dwelling within the body? In deep sleep, consciousness was in a dormant condition; there were no bodies, no concepts, no encumbrances. Upon the arrival of this apparently wakeful state, with the arrival of the concept "I Am", the love of "I Am" woke up. That itself is Maya, illusion.
Q: Does Maharaj mean that the experiencer of the three states is the Self?
M: That is the Saguna Brahman state; because of your beingness the other states are. The dream world is very old, it is not new. You see old monuments in your dreams. Your beingness is very powerful. The emergence of this beingness itself constitutes time. Everything is beingness, but I, the Absolute, am not that. In meditation, there was space, when suddenly two forms appeared out of no-form, Prakriti and Purusha, and the quintessence of these forms was the knowledge "I Am". There were no forms, then suddenly forms appeared, just as in the dream world. You as a dreamer are sleeping on the bed, but in your dream world you see a body and you think it is you, and you are doing everything through this dream body. In that same way, bodies are created in the so-called waking state. The Prakriti and Purusha state has no form and is eternal, having neither a beginning nor an end. But from it come the five elements, and with them, simultaneously, the body is formed at the moment that time is first experienced. This process is ever continuing, with the body-form merely indicative of the opportunity to experience time. This explanation will not reach home to everyone. At the moment of so-called death, with what identity would you like to depart?
Q: As Parabrahman.
M: The Absolute, which I call Parabrahman, what is it like? What you are doing is multiplying words with more words, concepts with more concepts.
Q: Maharaj must take me out of this.
M: Can you define what you are?
Q: I must have your blessing to understand what I am.
M: You are very adept at word-games. While I am talking about knowledge that is beyond this phenomenal world, you are trying to understand through worldly concepts and words. Give up all these concepts and inquire into the nature of your beingness. How did you happen to be? Ponder it! The real blessing of the Guru comes when your knowledge itself sprouts inside you.
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Post by explorer on Dec 3, 2018 17:09:38 GMT -5
I like the last line of that dialogue: "The real blessing of the Guru comes when your knowledge itself sprouts inside you." The metaphor of the sprouting (of the seed) which then grows is helpful and from this arises the question: "What does the seed and growing plant need to flourish?" - Surely it needs nourishment and in particular in the matter of spiritual growth, ENCOURAGEMENT. I despair of the emphasis on the DIFFICULTY of spiritual growth and Enlightenment in some teachings and I delight In the optimistic emphasis on the REAL POSSIBILITY of spiritual attainment in some other teachings, for example those of Adyashanti and Gangaji.
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Post by enigma on Dec 3, 2018 20:07:44 GMT -5
May 10, 1980 Maharaj: How did I get to the truth that I prevail everlastingly? By meditating on the meditator, by "I Amness" merging into "I Airiness". Only then did I understand what my true nature is. The great Sages meditated in the same way. Nobody had told me how to do it. I did not seek this knowledge externally. It sprouted within me. I meditated like the Sages and saw a vision. Initially, there was space, and in the space I saw the principles embodied. Actually, they have no bodies, but in my vision they had bodies. I called them Prakriti and Purusha, the male and female aspects of cosmic consciousness. Until the union of Prakriti and Purusha, the dynamic, all-pervading consciousness lay in a dormant state. In the union of the male and female aspects, emissions were planted in the female of these figures. When these emissions merged in the womb they started taking form. After nine months of gestation, an infant was delivered. That consciousness which was planted in the womb was the causal body, the "lingadeha". In that "lingadeha", the knowledge "I Am" was in a dormant condition. This is what I saw in meditation. Questioner: How did we lose this pure consciousness state? M: Every being experiences the Isvara state, either directly or potentially, but he is so wrapped up in this objective world that he loses his identity. You must know what this "I Am" principle is. It appears spontaneously and with its appearance begins the riddle of conceptual life. Q: How do I start this search for my Self? M: Start from the very beginning. In this gross world I began with my parents, because I knew full well that my principle was already dwelling there in the collection of their bodily elements out of which I emanated. But I came to the conclusion that I could not be that principle which came from the mother's body. There is nobody here who is 100 years old. Does that mean that 100 years ago you did not exist? Q: I don't know. M: The one who said, "I don't know" must have been there; in short, you were not like this, but you must have been something. You must comprehend this correctly. 100 years back I was not like this; so, the one pointing this out must have been there. You did, and do, exist unto eternity. What I am expounding does not relate to worldly knowledge. You do not want to give up either worldly knowledge or so-called spiritual knowledge, and yet, through these worldly concepts, you want to understand the riddle of your existence, and that is precisely why you are not able to understand. In truth, your state is one of Absolute bliss, not this phenomenal state. In that non-phenomenal state you are full of bliss but there is no experience of its presence. In that state there is no trace of misery or unhappiness, only unalloyed bliss. What am I talking about? Q: Ananda (bliss). M: Because you want some satisfaction according to your own concepts, you try to qualify unalloyed bliss. The term "ananda" has significance only when it signifies that the bodily beingness is available to experience it. When you are in deep sleep and you start to see forms, you are actually dreaming. Aren't those dream forms coming from your own beingness? Whatever you see, even in the waking state, doesn't it come from your own beingness which is dwelling within the body? In deep sleep, consciousness was in a dormant condition; there were no bodies, no concepts, no encumbrances. Upon the arrival of this apparently wakeful state, with the arrival of the concept "I Am", the love of "I Am" woke up. That itself is Maya, illusion. Q: Does Maharaj mean that the experiencer of the three states is the Self? M: That is the Saguna Brahman state; because of your beingness the other states are. The dream world is very old, it is not new. You see old monuments in your dreams. Your beingness is very powerful. The emergence of this beingness itself constitutes time. Everything is beingness, but I, the Absolute, am not that. In meditation, there was space, when suddenly two forms appeared out of no-form, Prakriti and Purusha, and the quintessence of these forms was the knowledge "I Am". There were no forms, then suddenly forms appeared, just as in the dream world. You as a dreamer are sleeping on the bed, but in your dream world you see a body and you think it is you, and you are doing everything through this dream body. In that same way, bodies are created in the so-called waking state. The Prakriti and Purusha state has no form and is eternal, having neither a beginning nor an end. But from it come the five elements, and with them, simultaneously, the body is formed at the moment that time is first experienced. This process is ever continuing, with the body-form merely indicative of the opportunity to experience time. This explanation will not reach home to everyone.At the moment of so-called death, with what identity would you like to depart? Q: As Parabrahman. M: The Absolute, which I call Parabrahman, what is it like? What you are doing is multiplying words with more words, concepts with more concepts. Q: Maharaj must take me out of this. M: Can you define what you are? Q: I must have your blessing to understand what I am. M: You are very adept at word-games. While I am talking about knowledge that is beyond this phenomenal world, you are trying to understand through worldly concepts and words. Give up all these concepts and inquire into the nature of your beingness. How did you happen to be? Ponder it! The real blessing of the Guru comes when your knowledge itself sprouts inside you. And then there's this
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Post by tenka on Dec 4, 2018 3:25:14 GMT -5
In the union of the male and female aspects, emissions were planted in the female of these figures. When these emissions merged in the womb they started taking form. After nine months of gestation, an infant was delivered. That consciousness which was planted in the womb was the causal body, the "lingadeha". In that "lingadeha", the knowledge "I Am" was in a dormant condition. This is what I saw in meditation. M: Start from the very beginning. In this gross world I began with my parents, because I knew full well that my principle was already dwelling there in the collection of their bodily elements out of which I emanated. But I came to the conclusion that I could not be that principle which came from the mother's body. There is nobody here who is 100 years old. Does that mean that 100 years ago you did not exist? ... At least Niz has an idea of the process of how he made an appearance into this world . I wonder if he thought an appearance of a mountain endures the same process
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Post by justlikeyou on Dec 5, 2018 7:41:01 GMT -5
OK. But from your POV, based on his own words, did NM have a realization, an experience or both?
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Post by Reefs on Dec 5, 2018 9:26:59 GMT -5
OK. But from your POV, based on his own words, did NM have a realization, an experience or both? From my POV, it's just Niz nizzin', ye know. I think it is worth distinguishing between a discussion about realizations and a discussion about metaphysics. What's mostly going on here on the forum is the discussion of metaphysics, not the discussion of realizations. The underlined bit in the Niz quote is pure metaphysics. It may have an actual realization at its basis, but realization or not - it is the product of abstract thinking. That should be understood. There's no way around that. And as such, it is open to interpretation (or misinterpretation). Niz is a particularly difficult case, you'll see that both camps in the appearances debate tend to use his quotes to prove their point. And it usually works - for both camps! If Niz goes all witness mode, then the appearances only camp tends to quote that. If Niz goes all 'I am THAT' mode, then the other camp tends to quote that. Like I said, both camps are right. What's wrong is calling the other camp wrong. And there's no better way to illustrate that than a Niz quote war.
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Post by justlikeyou on Dec 5, 2018 20:48:29 GMT -5
From my POV, it's just Niz nizzin', ye know. I think it is worth distinguishing between a discussion about realizations and a discussion about metaphysics. What's mostly going on here on the forum is the discussion of metaphysics, not the discussion of realizations. The underlined bit in the Niz quote is pure metaphysics. It may have an actual realization at its basis, but realization or not - it is the product of abstract thinking. That should be understood. There's no way around that. And as such, it is open to interpretation (or misinterpretation). Niz is a particularly difficult case, you'll see that both camps in the appearances debate tend to use his quotes to prove their point. And it usually works - for both camps! If Niz goes all witness mode, then the appearances only camp tends to quote that. If Niz goes all 'I am THAT' mode, then the other camp tends to quote that. Like I said, both camps are right. What's wrong is calling the other camp wrong. And there's no better way to illustrate that than a Niz quote war. Clearly stated.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2018 2:56:04 GMT -5
From my POV, it's just Niz nizzin', ye know. I think it is worth distinguishing between a discussion about realizations and a discussion about metaphysics. What's mostly going on here on the forum is the discussion of metaphysics, not the discussion of realizations. The underlined bit in the Niz quote is pure metaphysics. It may have an actual realization at its basis, but realization or not - it is the product of abstract thinking. That should be understood. There's no way around that. And as such, it is open to interpretation (or misinterpretation). Niz is a particularly difficult case, you'll see that both camps in the appearances debate tend to use his quotes to prove their point. And it usually works - for both camps! If Niz goes all witness mode, then the appearances only camp tends to quote that. If Niz goes all 'I am THAT' mode, then the other camp tends to quote that. Like I said, both camps are right. What's wrong is calling the other camp wrong. And there's no better way to illustrate that than a Niz quote war. Yeah, I'm not quite sure why when speaking to others, Enigma is obsessed with the screen/witness/dream/movie metaphor. And yet when talking about himself.. it is the 'I Am That' perspective that is his primary default setting. I have an educated idea about why that is so, though of course, I can never be certain. ... And the chances of him blazing into this post, are, as ever quite high. In fact I'll save him the trouble of putting the moody face and leave it here for him
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Post by zendancer on Dec 6, 2018 9:09:56 GMT -5
OK. But from your POV, based on his own words, did NM have a realization, an experience or both? This is the same kind of question that I've asked. Most of the sages I've read about had both experiences and realizations on the path to freedom, and in many cases experiences preceded realizations or were the basis for whatever was realized. Here's the story of Achaan Chah, a Vipassana sage and longtime meditator: "When I stopped for a rest, it was only the sitting that stopped. My mind remained the same, unmoved. As I lay down....and my head hit the pillow, there was a turning inward of the mind. I did not know where it was turning, but it turned within, like an electric current being switched on, and the body exploded with loud noises. The awareness was as refined as possible. Passing that point, the mind went in further. Inside there was nothing, nothing at all; nothing went in there, nothing could reach. The awareness stopped inside for a while and then came out. Not that I made it come out---no, I was merely an observer, the one who was aware. When I came out of this condition, I returned to my normal state of mind, and the question arose, 'What was that?' The answer came, 'These things are just what they are; there's no need to doubt them.' Just this much and my mind could accept. After it had stopped for a while, the mind turned inward again. I did not turn it; it turned itself. When it had gone in, it reached its limit as before. This second time, my body broke into fine pieces, and the mind went further in, silent, unreachable. When it had gone in and stayed for as long as it wished, it came out again, and I returned to normal. During this time the mind was self-acting. I just continued to sit and contemplate. The third time the mind went in, the whole world broke apart; the earth, grass, trees, mountains, people, all was just space. Nothing was left. When the mind had gone in and abided as it wished, had stayed for as long as it could, the mind withdrew, and returned to normal. I do not know how it abided; such things are difficult to speak about because there is nothing to compare it with. Of these three instances, who could say what had occurred? Who could know? What could I call it?....When I emerged from this experience, the whole world had changed. All knowledge and understanding had been transformed. When everyone would be thinking one way, I would be thinking another. I was no longer running with the rest of mankind." This account makes it seem to me that Achaan Chah had a series of experiences that resulted in psychological freedom and a complete change in understanding. Afterwards he reportedly lost all interest in himself and only became interested in the welfare of others. It seems to me that any model of the non-dual path based purely on realizations would have to ignore the vast number of sages like Achaan Chah whose understanding was transformed as a result of directly experiencing ineffable aspects of reality/mind/awareness.
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Post by siftingtothetruth on Dec 6, 2018 9:56:08 GMT -5
This is the same kind of question that I've asked. Most of the sages I've read about had both experiences and realizations on the path to freedom, and in many cases experiences preceded realizations or were the basis for whatever was realized. Here's the story of Achaan Chah, a Vipassana sage and longtime meditator: "When I stopped for a rest, it was only the sitting that stopped. My mind remained the same, unmoved. As I lay down....and my head hit the pillow, there was a turning inward of the mind. I did not know where it was turning, but it turned within, like an electric current being switched on, and the body exploded with loud noises. The awareness was as refined as possible. Passing that point, the mind went in further. Inside there was nothing, nothing at all; nothing went in there, nothing could reach. The awareness stopped inside for a while and then came out. Not that I made it come out---no, I was merely an observer, the one who was aware. When I came out of this condition, I returned to my normal state of mind, and the question arose, 'What was that?' The answer came, 'These things are just what they are; there's no need to doubt them.' Just this much and my mind could accept. After it had stopped for a while, the mind turned inward again. I did not turn it; it turned itself. When it had gone in, it reached its limit as before. This second time, my body broke into fine pieces, and the mind went further in, silent, unreachable. When it had gone in and stayed for as long as it wished, it came out again, and I returned to normal. During this time the mind was self-acting. I just continued to sit and contemplate. The third time the mind went in, the whole world broke apart; the earth, grass, trees, mountains, people, all was just space. Nothing was left. When the mind had gone in and abided as it wished, had stayed for as long as it could, the mind withdrew, and returned to normal. I do not know how it abided; such things are difficult to speak about because there is nothing to compare it with. Of these three instances, who could say what had occurred? Who could know? What could I call it?....When I emerged from this experience, the whole world had changed. All knowledge and understanding had been transformed. When everyone would be thinking one way, I would be thinking another. I was no longer running with the rest of mankind." This account makes it seem to me that Achaan Chah had a series of experiences that resulted in psychological freedom and a complete change in understanding. Afterwards he reportedly lost all interest in himself and only became interested in the welfare of others. It seems to me that any model of the non-dual path based purely on realizations would have to ignore the vast number of sages like Achaan Chah whose understanding was transformed as a result of directly experiencing ineffable aspects of reality/mind/awareness. Must not a distinction be made here between the realization -- which is not an experience -- and the surrounding experiences within which it must necessarily be embedded? I don't think anyone is denying that there are experiences, which are the mind's way of interpreting the touching of its own boundaries. But one could argue in the narrative above that Achaan (is this the same as Ajahn?) Chah had a realization following his third experience, and that was the transformative factor, not the experiential stuff he might say about it.
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Post by zendancer on Dec 6, 2018 11:08:14 GMT -5
This is the same kind of question that I've asked. Most of the sages I've read about had both experiences and realizations on the path to freedom, and in many cases experiences preceded realizations or were the basis for whatever was realized. Here's the story of Achaan Chah, a Vipassana sage and longtime meditator: "When I stopped for a rest, it was only the sitting that stopped. My mind remained the same, unmoved. As I lay down....and my head hit the pillow, there was a turning inward of the mind. I did not know where it was turning, but it turned within, like an electric current being switched on, and the body exploded with loud noises. The awareness was as refined as possible. Passing that point, the mind went in further. Inside there was nothing, nothing at all; nothing went in there, nothing could reach. The awareness stopped inside for a while and then came out. Not that I made it come out---no, I was merely an observer, the one who was aware. When I came out of this condition, I returned to my normal state of mind, and the question arose, 'What was that?' The answer came, 'These things are just what they are; there's no need to doubt them.' Just this much and my mind could accept. After it had stopped for a while, the mind turned inward again. I did not turn it; it turned itself. When it had gone in, it reached its limit as before. This second time, my body broke into fine pieces, and the mind went further in, silent, unreachable. When it had gone in and stayed for as long as it wished, it came out again, and I returned to normal. During this time the mind was self-acting. I just continued to sit and contemplate. The third time the mind went in, the whole world broke apart; the earth, grass, trees, mountains, people, all was just space. Nothing was left. When the mind had gone in and abided as it wished, had stayed for as long as it could, the mind withdrew, and returned to normal. I do not know how it abided; such things are difficult to speak about because there is nothing to compare it with. Of these three instances, who could say what had occurred? Who could know? What could I call it?....When I emerged from this experience, the whole world had changed. All knowledge and understanding had been transformed. When everyone would be thinking one way, I would be thinking another. I was no longer running with the rest of mankind." This account makes it seem to me that Achaan Chah had a series of experiences that resulted in psychological freedom and a complete change in understanding. Afterwards he reportedly lost all interest in himself and only became interested in the welfare of others. It seems to me that any model of the non-dual path based purely on realizations would have to ignore the vast number of sages like Achaan Chah whose understanding was transformed as a result of directly experiencing ineffable aspects of reality/mind/awareness. Must not a distinction be made here between the realization -- which is not an experience -- and the surrounding experiences within which it must necessarily be embedded? I don't think anyone is denying that there are experiences, which are the mind's way of interpreting the touching of its own boundaries. But one could argue in the narrative above that Achaan (is this the same as Ajahn?) Chah had a realization following his third experience, and that was the transformative factor, not the experiential stuff he might say about it. Possibly, but to discount the direct apprehension of oneness, or the Infinite, or whateverwewanttocallit, as insignificant in relationship to a realization, seems strange to me because the realization in many cases results directly from the experience. In fact, a transcendental realization is often an intellectual conclusion totally dependent upon a direct experience. During a deep CC there is no thought of, "Oh, things are not what I imagined" (because there's no identifiable entity capable of reflecting upon what's happening). That which IS the case becomes obvious, and it is only afterwards that the mind thinks about what happened dualistically and realizes that what one previously thought about the nature of reality was erroneous. IOW, based on experiences and realizations that this body/mind organism has had, it's easy for me to distinguish two completely different types of realizations. The first type, that we might call a "pure and simple realization," is a sudden seeing that is not experiential. I can remember many realizations like this that occurred out of the blue or when contemplating some issue. Suddenly, it was seen that an idea to which i had been attached, was obviously and self-evidently false. With this type of realization, the primary sense is the falsity of what was previously believed. The second type, that we might call "a resultant realization," occurs as a result of a non-dual experience, and without the experience the realization simply wouldn't occur. With this type of realization the primary sense is the truth of what was seen rather than the falsity of what was previously believed. This may explain the two primarily different ways that people talk about ND realizations, and the conclusions they reach based upon what they've seen and/or experienced. The first type of realization results in statements like, "I realized that I was not who I had thought I was," or, "I realized that the whole universe moves as one." The second type of realization results in statements like, "I realized that I am the cosmos," or "I realized that the rocks, the trees, the river, and everything I could see was my true self," or "I realized that I am THAT," or "I realized that the cosmos is a living presence." Here's a quote from Tolle in TPON that captures the essence of the second type of realization: "In the timeless realm where God dwells, which is our home, the beginning and the end, the Alpha and the Omega, are one, and the essence of everything that ever has been or ever will be is eternally present in an unmanifested state of oneness and perfection--beyond anything the human mind can imagine or comprehend. In our world of seemingly separate forms, however, timeless perfection is an inconceivable concept. Everything that exists has Being, has God-Essence, has some degree of consciousness. Even a stone has rudimentary consciousness; otherwise, it would not be, and its atoms and molecules would disperse. Everything is alive. The sun, the earth, plants, animals, humans--all are expressions of consciousness in varying degrees, consciousness manifesting as form." p.99 The Buddha supposedly said, "Everything that exists has Buddha-Nature," which sounds to me a lot like Eckhart's "God-Essence." I'll leave it at that, but it's certainly an interesting topic.
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Post by siftingtothetruth on Dec 6, 2018 20:55:47 GMT -5
Possibly, but to discount the direct apprehension of oneness, or the Infinite, or whateverwewanttocallit, as insignificant in relationship to a realization, seems strange to me because the realization in many cases results directly from the experience. In fact, a transcendental realization is often an intellectual conclusion totally dependent upon a direct experience. During a deep CC there is no thought of, "Oh, things are not what I imagined" (because there's no identifiable entity capable of reflecting upon what's happening). That which IS the case becomes obvious, and it is only afterwards that the mind thinks about what happened dualistically and realizes that what one previously thought about the nature of reality was erroneous. IOW, based on experiences and realizations that this body/mind organism has had, it's easy for me to distinguish two completely different types of realizations. The first type, that we might call a "pure and simple realization," is a sudden seeing that is not experiential. I can remember many realizations like this that occurred out of the blue or when contemplating some issue. Suddenly, it was seen that an idea to which i had been attached, was obviously and self-evidently false. With this type of realization, the primary sense is the falsity of what was previously believed. The second type, that we might call "a resultant realization," occurs as a result of a non-dual experience, and without the experience the realization simply wouldn't occur. With this type of realization the primary sense is the truth of what was seen rather than the falsity of what was previously believed. This may explain the two primarily different ways that people talk about ND realizations, and the conclusions they reach based upon what they've seen and/or experienced. The first type of realization results in statements like, "I realized that I was not who I had thought I was," or, "I realized that the whole universe moves as one." The second type of realization results in statements like, "I realized that I am the cosmos," or "I realized that the rocks, the trees, the river, and everything I could see was my true self," or "I realized that I am THAT," or "I realized that the cosmos is a living presence." Interesting indeed. Thanks for sharing your experiences. My path, not surprisingly, was a little different. After nearly two decades of searching and obtaining glimpses across many dimensions of life of the sense of a unified intelligence behind and also in and through and connecting things into a single fabric, I entered a phase of intense self-inquiry which was marked by progressive "I am the cosmos" type states -- which were accompanied by the dissolution of the ordinary "I" feeling. I call this the "spacious mind." But these, I would say, were glimpses. They were what they were precisely because they were seemingly temporary. It was only at the very end, in those last flashes of surrender, when there was finally the Realization of no name... the realization that "Thatness" was all that there was, ever, and that that had always been the case... which was really just the passing of a critical threshold, the knowledge that the time of "glimpsing" was over, and that the underlying truth of those glimpses would remain clear, without confusion, and effortless. Indeed, had always been so. Of course, the glimpes were this, just this, exactly this... they were called glimpses only in retrospect, when they seemed to recede, and from that receded perspective I assigned these phrases like "I am the cosmos." Within the "spacious mind" it was not the case, really. Anyhow, in that final falling away -- unlike most of my previous glimpses over 20 years -- there was no sense of which I would later say it felt like "I am the cosmos," "I am the universe," etc. There's simply That, as you put it. That, That, That, That, That....
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Post by zendancer on Dec 6, 2018 22:08:32 GMT -5
Possibly, but to discount the direct apprehension of oneness, or the Infinite, or whateverwewanttocallit, as insignificant in relationship to a realization, seems strange to me because the realization in many cases results directly from the experience. In fact, a transcendental realization is often an intellectual conclusion totally dependent upon a direct experience. During a deep CC there is no thought of, "Oh, things are not what I imagined" (because there's no identifiable entity capable of reflecting upon what's happening). That which IS the case becomes obvious, and it is only afterwards that the mind thinks about what happened dualistically and realizes that what one previously thought about the nature of reality was erroneous. IOW, based on experiences and realizations that this body/mind organism has had, it's easy for me to distinguish two completely different types of realizations. The first type, that we might call a "pure and simple realization," is a sudden seeing that is not experiential. I can remember many realizations like this that occurred out of the blue or when contemplating some issue. Suddenly, it was seen that an idea to which i had been attached, was obviously and self-evidently false. With this type of realization, the primary sense is the falsity of what was previously believed. The second type, that we might call "a resultant realization," occurs as a result of a non-dual experience, and without the experience the realization simply wouldn't occur. With this type of realization the primary sense is the truth of what was seen rather than the falsity of what was previously believed. This may explain the two primarily different ways that people talk about ND realizations, and the conclusions they reach based upon what they've seen and/or experienced. The first type of realization results in statements like, "I realized that I was not who I had thought I was," or, "I realized that the whole universe moves as one." The second type of realization results in statements like, "I realized that I am the cosmos," or "I realized that the rocks, the trees, the river, and everything I could see was my true self," or "I realized that I am THAT," or "I realized that the cosmos is a living presence." Interesting indeed. Thanks for sharing your experiences. My path, not surprisingly, was a little different. After nearly two decades of searching and obtaining glimpses across many dimensions of life of the sense of a unified intelligence behind and also in and through and connecting things into a single fabric, I entered a phase of intense self-inquiry which was marked by progressive "I am the cosmos" type states -- which were accompanied by the dissolution of the ordinary "I" feeling. I call this the "spacious mind." But these, I would say, were glimpses. They were what they were precisely because they were seemingly temporary. It was only at the very end, in those last flashes of surrender, when there was finally the Realization of no name... the realization that "Thatness" was all that there was, ever, and that that had always been the case... which was really just the passing of a critical threshold, the knowledge that the time of "glimpsing" was over, and that the underlying truth of those glimpses would remain clear, without confusion, and effortless. Indeed, had always been so. Of course, the glimpes were this, just this, exactly this... they were called glimpses only in retrospect, when they seemed to recede, and from that receded perspective I assigned these phrases like "I am the cosmos." Within the "spacious mind" it was not the case, really. Anyhow, in that final falling away -- unlike most of my previous glimpses over 20 years -- there was no sense of which I would later say it felt like "I am the cosmos," "I am the universe," etc. There's simply That, as you put it. That, That, That, That, That.... Yes. THAT is always obvious, and THAT has always been obvious, though It usually isn't recognized due to obscuring thoughts. The observer and the observed are one, and there is no actual separation. If someone asked me, "What are you?" I would have to respond, like Niz, "I am THAT which asked the question."
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Post by justlikeyou on Dec 6, 2018 22:54:47 GMT -5
Yes. THAT is always obvious, and THAT has always been obvious, though It usually isn't recognized due to obscuring thoughts. The observer and the observed are one, and there is no actual separation. If someone asked me, "What are you?" I would have to respond, like Niz, "I am THAT which asked the question." Paramahansa Yogananda's First Experience in Cosmic Consciousness. My body became immovably rooted; breath was drawn out of my lungs as if by some huge magnet. Soul and mind instantly lost their physical bondage and streamed out like a fluid piercing light from my every pore. The flesh was as though dead; yet in my intense awareness I knew that never before had I been fully alive. My sense of identity was no longer narrowly confined to a body but embraced the circumambient atoms. People on distant streets seemed to be moving gently over my own remote periphery. The roots of plants and trees appeared through a dim transparency of the soil; I discerned the inward flow of their sap. The whole vicinity lay bare before me. My ordinary frontal vision was now changed to a vast spherical sight, simultaneously all-perceptive. Through the back of my head I saw men strolling far down Rai Ghat Lane, and noticed also a white cow that was leisurely approaching. When she reached the open ashram gate, I observed her as though with my two physical eyes. After she had passed behind the brick wall of the courtyard, I saw her clearly still. All objects within my panoramic gaze trembled and vibrated like quick motion pictures. My body, Master's, the pillared courtyard, the furniture and floor, the trees and sunshine, occasionally became violently agitated, until all melted into a luminescent sea; even as sugar crystals, thrown into a glass of water, dissolve after being shaken. The unifying light alternated with materializations of form, the metamorphoses revealing the law of cause and effect in creation. An oceanic joy broke upon calm endless shores of my soul. The Spirit of God, I realized, is exhaustless Bliss; His body is countless tissues of light. A swelling glory within me began to envelop towns, continents, the earth, solar and stellar systems, tenuous nebulae, and floating universes. The entire cosmos, gently luminous, like a city seen afar at night, glimmered within the infinitude of my being. The dazzling light beyond the sharply etched global outlines faded slightly at the farthest edges; there I saw a mellow radiance, ever undiminished. It was indescribably subtle; the planetary pictures were formed of a grosser light.* [* Light as the essence of creation.] The divine dispersion of rays poured from an Eternal Source, blazing into galaxies, transfigured with ineffable auras. Again and again I saw the creative beams condense into constellations, then resolve into sheets of transparent flame. By rhythmic reversion, sextillion worlds passed into diaphanous luster, then fire became firmament. I cognized the center of the empyrean as a point of intuitive perception in my heart. Irradiating splendor issued from my nucleus to every part of the universal structure. Blissful amrita, nectar of immortality, pulsated through me with a quicksilver like fluidity. The creative voice of God I heard resounding as Aum,* the vibration of the Cosmic Motor. [* "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."—John 1:1.] Suddenly the breath returned to my lungs. With a disappointment almost unbearable, I realized that my infinite immensity was lost. Once more I was limited to the humiliating cage of a body, not easily accommodative to the Spirit. Like a prodigal child, I had run away from my macrocosmic home and had imprisoned myself in a narrow microcosm. My guru [Sri Yukteswar] was standing motionless before me; I started to prostrate myself at his holy feet in gratitude for his having bestowed on me the experience in cosmic consciousness that I had long passionately sought. He held me upright and said quietly: "You must not get overdrunk with ecstasy. Much work yet remains for you in the world. Come, let us sweep the balcony floor; then we shall walk by the Ganges."
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2018 1:25:07 GMT -5
Yes. THAT is always obvious, and THAT has always been obvious, though It usually isn't recognized due to obscuring thoughts. The observer and the observed are one, and there is no actual separation. If someone asked me, "What are you?" I would have to respond, like Niz, "I am THAT which asked the question." Paramahansa Yogananda's First Experience in Cosmic Consciousness. My body became immovably rooted; breath was drawn out of my lungs as if by some huge magnet. Soul and mind instantly lost their physical bondage and streamed out like a fluid piercing light from my every pore. The flesh was as though dead; yet in my intense awareness I knew that never before had I been fully alive. My sense of identity was no longer narrowly confined to a body but embraced the circumambient atoms. People on distant streets seemed to be moving gently over my own remote periphery. The roots of plants and trees appeared through a dim transparency of the soil; I discerned the inward flow of their sap. The whole vicinity lay bare before me. My ordinary frontal vision was now changed to a vast spherical sight, simultaneously all-perceptive. Through the back of my head I saw men strolling far down Rai Ghat Lane, and noticed also a white cow that was leisurely approaching. When she reached the open ashram gate, I observed her as though with my two physical eyes. After she had passed behind the brick wall of the courtyard, I saw her clearly still. All objects within my panoramic gaze trembled and vibrated like quick motion pictures. My body, Master's, the pillared courtyard, the furniture and floor, the trees and sunshine, occasionally became violently agitated, until all melted into a luminescent sea; even as sugar crystals, thrown into a glass of water, dissolve after being shaken. The unifying light alternated with materializations of form, the metamorphoses revealing the law of cause and effect in creation. An oceanic joy broke upon calm endless shores of my soul. The Spirit of God, I realized, is exhaustless Bliss; His body is countless tissues of light. A swelling glory within me began to envelop towns, continents, the earth, solar and stellar systems, tenuous nebulae, and floating universes. The entire cosmos, gently luminous, like a city seen afar at night, glimmered within the infinitude of my being. The dazzling light beyond the sharply etched global outlines faded slightly at the farthest edges; there I saw a mellow radiance, ever undiminished. It was indescribably subtle; the planetary pictures were formed of a grosser light.* [* Light as the essence of creation.] The divine dispersion of rays poured from an Eternal Source, blazing into galaxies, transfigured with ineffable auras. Again and again I saw the creative beams condense into constellations, then resolve into sheets of transparent flame. By rhythmic reversion, sextillion worlds passed into diaphanous luster, then fire became firmament. I cognized the center of the empyrean as a point of intuitive perception in my heart. Irradiating splendor issued from my nucleus to every part of the universal structure. Blissful amrita, nectar of immortality, pulsated through me with a quicksilver like fluidity. The creative voice of God I heard resounding as Aum,* the vibration of the Cosmic Motor. [* "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."—John 1:1.] Suddenly the breath returned to my lungs. With a disappointment almost unbearable, I realized that my infinite immensity was lost. Once more I was limited to the humiliating cage of a body, not easily accommodative to the Spirit. Like a prodigal child, I had run away from my macrocosmic home and had imprisoned myself in a narrow microcosm. My guru [Sri Yukteswar] was standing motionless before me; I started to prostrate myself at his holy feet in gratitude for his having bestowed on me the experience in cosmic consciousness that I had long passionately sought. He held me upright and said quietly: "You must not get overdrunk with ecstasy. Much work yet remains for you in the world. Come, let us sweep the balcony floor; then we shall walk by the Ganges."
Yeah. You can't stay in Spirit. It will kill you.
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