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Fasting
Jul 15, 2018 18:32:59 GMT -5
Post by laughter on Jul 15, 2018 18:32:59 GMT -5
I'm not really buying it. But just for arguments sake lets assume this is true. Now, I'm not advocating one or the other or condemning one or the other, just as a hypothetical that occurred to me while I was fasting, how many of us who eat meat would still continue to eat meat if they were only allowed to eat meat under the condition that they would have to kill it and prepare it all by themselves? Sorta like: "Here's your cow, here's a bunch of knives, good luck!" I grew up in the country. My Grandpa raised chickens and sold eggs. I had three uncles within sight of my house who had dairy farms. I had another uncle who lived beside me who was a carpenter but also raised pigs. I never watched but I knew when it was time to kill pigs to make bacon and sausage. My brother-in-law hunts. You have to field-dress the game (gut). My son-in-law is a big hunter. While in the states all the meat they eat is game from his hunting. I've never seen an animal field-dressed either. But I think you are right, if most people had to kill and prepare their own meat, they would decide to like only vegetable protein. I read a book by Sri Yukteswar many years ago. He said the human body is not designed to eat meat. Animals that eat meat have a short digestive system so the meat passes through the system quickly. Humans have a long digestive system and meat begins to putrify before it completes the digestive process. Makes sense to me. I'd go so far as to agree that most people seem to never reflect on how they fit in with the food chain or what life was like a few hundred years ago or earlier.
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Fasting
Jul 15, 2018 18:38:03 GMT -5
Post by laughter on Jul 15, 2018 18:38:03 GMT -5
Humans really do not need to eat meat to live healthily. Excessive eating and meat-eating are examples in my view of unconscious and unreflective behaviour that is almost expected of us in the western world. People who fast or who refrain from meat are easily lampooned by a society that encourages consumption in general and eating in particular. I would say all the great sages and all the great teachings counsel moderation and self-discipline. Without self discipline of various kinds one can become lost among the thorns of the world (to echo Jesus' parable of the Sower) Personally I semi-fast every Sunday and never eat after 7pm, and my body is grateful for these small disciplines. It is not difficult to observe small disciplines if these disciplines become habitual. In the same way, observing the habit of regular silence is to refrain from gorging on words and opinions. May we all enjoy the blessings of moderation in eating and speaking! There's a sprawling public college campus near here where we like to go to walk in the woods. It's at the edge of town in the direction of the country, and the nearby deer have seemed to realize that the students don't have hunting rifles, so you can often see them grazing on the groomed open grass. At least I know where to go for the first few weeks after armageddon, 'cause they look so yummy doing it.
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Fasting
Jul 16, 2018 1:47:00 GMT -5
Post by explorer on Jul 16, 2018 1:47:00 GMT -5
It's the same with humans, isn't it? We can naturally live in peace without fighting or fleeing, or we can learn by bitter experience that we need to fight or flee: hence war and refugees. Heaven on earth is possible if we learn to live in peace with each other and that war need not be necessary and normal.
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Post by Reefs on Jul 16, 2018 8:44:09 GMT -5
I didn't quite make it my first try. I was doing fine but I was doing a kitchen remodel on the 3rd day and the homeowners were getting take-out pizza for lunch and invited me to pizza. This was a pretty rare invite, so I caved in. Yes, the people around you can be the biggest obstacle. I like to snack at night watching TV, so this commitment is a way to break that. Now that's a sure recipe for overeating. Before fasting, I experimented a bit with my diet. One thing that proved very successful with cooked food was making an effort to actually savor every bite and morsel I put into my mouth. Sorta like ATA for eating. That way alone I reduced my food intake effortlessly by more than 50%. Looks like I'm going to have to totally cut out sweets (again) to lose the weight I've gained, my sweet ice tea is the hardest thing to drop. I'd set a specific number for ice teas per day. So let's say you decided that 2 ice teas per day are not going to kill you. Now this ice tea can become something you are really looking forward to and enjoy instead of something that you are consuming more or less unconsciously while busy doing something else. Based on my own experience, mindfulness will get you very far in terms of finding a healthy diet that fits your body type and life style. Having to refrain from certain foods or drinks you really love because of health reasons is no fun. And where you are not having fun, that's where you are usually off your path. A guy I worked with over 40 years ago experimented with fasting. He said when your appetite comes back is a signal to stop your fast. I would not do a fast longer than the 3 & 1/2 days without more research. I'm sure ZD will eventually chime in, he has written before here about a disaster fasting, that was enough warning for me. From the PBS special they talked about a blood-work number that should be lowered for good health. One way to lower this number is intermittent fasting. Any of the 3 methods discussed on the program lowers that number. Off had I do not remember that term, I probably have it in notes somewhere. I think I recall that keeping that number low slows the aging process. The 2nd best book I found on loosing weight is called The Leptin Diet. A hormone called leptin basically controls our eating habits. So if you can control leptin, you can loose weight. This guy has five rules, which work very well. (One of the rules is eat breakfast, but he goes into that in the book. He says you can skip breakfast if skipping does not make you eat more later. So he is OK with the 8 hour diet). The way I understand it, there are several reasons why fasting is beneficial. One main reason is to do some house cleaning, just letting the inner physician do its work. The other main reason is to get in touch with your inner guidance again, with your own body and what it tells you. Fasting is a reset of your senses, including your taste buds. There's some kind of cleansing process happening. I doubt that anyone who was fasting for longer periods of time (beyond 3 days) will go for a big mac or french fries as his first choice to break the fast. I started with some fresh coconut juice. It tasted like heaven! Now I'm back to my normal 80% raw diet again, and I noticed that after this fasting process, I can't drink ice cold water anymore. I can only drink water that is not very far from body temperature. Extremely sweet stuff, even natural food like honey melons, I'm not really interested in either. Let's see what happens when I'll have my next ice cream, haha.
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Fasting
Jul 16, 2018 10:36:46 GMT -5
Post by Reefs on Jul 16, 2018 10:36:46 GMT -5
Yes, extreme fasting (especially if combined with heavy exercise) can have serious effects. Long-term fasting as a weight-loss approach for people who are seriously overweight is also fraught with danger, and some people have actually gone psychotic due to a loss of particular electrolytes or necessary nutrients. There doesn't seem to be any problem with the kind of short-term fasting being discussed here, and fasting is occasionally pursued by Zen people on retreats who find that it increases their alertness and ability to concentrate. The question for me here is why people so often tend to end up in such extremes, like let's say the Buddha. I'd say it's the inevitable result of a purely intellectual approach. As far as I have observed, anything pursued from a purely intellectual perspective sooner or later ends in some kind of extreme.
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Fasting
Jul 16, 2018 10:49:18 GMT -5
Post by Reefs on Jul 16, 2018 10:49:18 GMT -5
That was a fun read. Sounds like some good advice too. The Loomis quote was as inspiring as it was informative. I guess some superficial and minor version of the enzyme repurposing is what I was referring to by reference to the "inner body". It fees like a positive, high-energy, non-audio physical hum. On a psychological level, it feels very empowering. You will know first hand that you don't need 3 square meals in order to stay healthy. And you will also know first hand that you've got an inner physician you can rely on. It really helps to let go of attachment to food, actually attachment or even addiction to any kind of substances. I've read some reports about chain smokers and drug addicts being clean after a week of fasting. I came across something interesting while I was still researching this. Not sure if you've ever heard of Hildegard of Bingen. I'm speaking from memory here so I may get the numbers wrong, but she had a list of roughly 30 vices. And according to her research, fasting did affect almost all of them in a positive way, except for one vice where the effect was rather negative. And that one vice was pride! I ain't never had time for 30 days in the woods. I'm lucky with Sue, she's always on me to lose weight anyways, but then again she pushes food 'cause she doesn't like to eat alone. Ah, that sounds so familiar!
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Fasting
Jul 16, 2018 14:36:38 GMT -5
Post by maxdprophet on Jul 16, 2018 14:36:38 GMT -5
I've only done 24 hours and some intermittent fasting. I'm at a pretty lean wt right now so am not really interested in it too much. The main reason I would do it is for the autophagy (recycling of senescent cells). I mentioned earlier doing a ketogenic diet, sometimes called 'fasting mimicking.' It mimics fasting because the brain, primarily, but also the rest of the body, must adapt to an energy source other than plentiful glucose. When glucose is cut out (fasting, keto), the bare glucose necessities are supplied by breaking down protein into glucose (gluconeogenesis). Then the remaining energy needs are via fat oxidation (bodyfat=stored energy). However free fatty acids can't cross the blood brain barrier, and since the brain is vital for survival, some of that fat is broken into ketones, which can cross the BBB. It is ketosis -- generated via fasting or carb restriction and/or exercise -- that creates the increased focus and clarity.
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Fasting
Jul 17, 2018 0:21:07 GMT -5
Post by laughter on Jul 17, 2018 0:21:07 GMT -5
That was a fun read. Sounds like some good advice too. The Loomis quote was as inspiring as it was informative. I guess some superficial and minor version of the enzyme repurposing is what I was referring to by reference to the "inner body". It fees like a positive, high-energy, non-audio physical hum. On a psychological level, it feels very empowering. You will know first hand that you don't need 3 square meals in order to stay healthy. And you will also know first hand that you've got an inner physician you can rely on. It really helps to let go of attachment to food, actually attachment or even addiction to any kind of substances. I've read some reports about chain smokers and drug addicts being clean after a week of fasting. I came across something interesting while I was still researching this. Not sure if you've ever heard of Hildegard of Bingen. I'm speaking from memory here so I may get the numbers wrong, but she had a list of roughly 30 vices. And according to her research, fasting did affect almost all of them in a positive way, except for one vice where the effect was rather negative. And that one vice was pride! I ain't never had time for 30 days in the woods. I'm lucky with Sue, she's always on me to lose weight anyways, but then again she pushes food 'cause she doesn't like to eat alone. Ah, that sounds so familiar! That's hil-arious. Hadn't heard of her before. Yes, I have to admit that this dialog is putting fasting into an entirely different light for me, thanks.
This book compares facets of fast food and other American abominations to other addictive substances. He coined a word in it: "hyperpalatable".
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Post by laughter on Jul 17, 2018 0:29:40 GMT -5
I've only done 24 hours and some intermittent fasting. I'm at a pretty lean wt right now so am not really interested in it too much. The main reason I would do it is for the autophagy (recycling of senescent cells). I mentioned earlier doing a ketogenic diet, sometimes called 'fasting mimicking.' It mimics fasting because the brain, primarily, but also the rest of the body, must adapt to an energy source other than plentiful glucose. When glucose is cut out (fasting, keto), the bare glucose necessities are supplied by breaking down protein into glucose (gluconeogenesis). Then the remaining energy needs are via fat oxidation (bodyfat=stored energy). However free fatty acids can't cross the blood brain barrier, and since the brain is vital for survival, some of that fat is broken into ketones, which can cross the BBB. It is ketosis -- generated via fasting or carb restriction and/or exercise -- that creates the increased focus and clarity. So have you transitioned back to allowing some of the processed carbs again? My go-to strategy in the perpetual losing battle of the bulge was always exercise. When injury put me down I turned to Atkins, so the more dramatic weight losses I've had in my life have ironically been when I was sedentary, watching the pee stick turn purple. European history suggests why certain segments of the population do better with fewer carbs. Especially the deep, pre-history from archeology and modern genealogy.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2018 9:36:26 GMT -5
On a psychological level, it feels very empowering. You will know first hand that you don't need 3 square meals in order to stay healthy. And you will also know first hand that you've got an inner physician you can rely on. It really helps to let go of attachment to food, actually attachment or even addiction to any kind of substances. I've read some reports about chain smokers and drug addicts being clean after a week of fasting. I came across something interesting while I was still researching this. Not sure if you've ever heard of Hildegard of Bingen. I'm speaking from memory here so I may get the numbers wrong, but she had a list of roughly 30 vices. And according to her research, fasting did affect almost all of them in a positive way, except for one vice where the effect was rather negative. And that one vice was pride! Ah, that sounds so familiar! That's hil-arious. Hadn't heard of her before. Yes, I have to admit that this dialog is putting fasting into an entirely different light for me, thanks.
This book compares facets of fast food and other American abominations to other addictive substances. He coined a word in it: "hyperpalatable". Must be in the cardio section of the gym for this kind of talk. Preferred diet of powerlifters, here in Americuh, is the three p's, Pizza, Pepsi and Beer. Lolly will vouch for this, though it might be slightly different in the Outback.
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Fasting
Jul 17, 2018 13:39:40 GMT -5
Post by maxdprophet on Jul 17, 2018 13:39:40 GMT -5
I've only done 24 hours and some intermittent fasting. I'm at a pretty lean wt right now so am not really interested in it too much. The main reason I would do it is for the autophagy (recycling of senescent cells). I mentioned earlier doing a ketogenic diet, sometimes called 'fasting mimicking.' It mimics fasting because the brain, primarily, but also the rest of the body, must adapt to an energy source other than plentiful glucose. When glucose is cut out (fasting, keto), the bare glucose necessities are supplied by breaking down protein into glucose (gluconeogenesis). Then the remaining energy needs are via fat oxidation (bodyfat=stored energy). However free fatty acids can't cross the blood brain barrier, and since the brain is vital for survival, some of that fat is broken into ketones, which can cross the BBB. It is ketosis -- generated via fasting or carb restriction and/or exercise -- that creates the increased focus and clarity. So have you transitioned back to allowing some of the processed carbs again? My go-to strategy in the perpetual losing battle of the bulge was always exercise. When injury put me down I turned to Atkins, so the more dramatic weight losses I've had in my life have ironically been when I was sedentary, watching the pee stick turn purple. European history suggests why certain segments of the population do better with fewer carbs. Especially the deep, pre-history from archeology and modern genealogy. Yea body composition is like 80-90% about the food intake and less about exercise (unless you do A LOT.) I was at my lightest while training for marathons -- food intake couldn't keep up. I also shed pounds easily on this Atkins/Keto thingy. Unlike in the marathon days, I'm actually stronger now. Higher protein intake and resistance training has led to increased lean muscle mass. All that running burned quite a lot of muscle mass. I'm still not eating refined carbs (no sugar no grains -- nsng). I eat mostly 'above ground' plants and not too much fruit and meat. My issue now is maintaining or growing muscle while trying to keep my insulin levels low. The latter is important cuz of Type 3 Diabetes (aka Alzheimer's Disease, prevalent in fam history). re: the only thing folks seem to agree on regarding AD prevention is exercise. But there is some hope in the Type3Diabetes realm -- that neurons have developed some sort of insulin resistance and are no longer as able to metabolize glucose. Basically I'm doing a Hail Mary pass, thinking that keeping insulin load low is good. In the meantime, the nsng/keto has been pretty easy and has kept me lean and strong and clearheaded. That said, I do partake in carbs now and then -- like when my kids bake treats or on special occasions. Also, beer!
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jul 17, 2018 20:17:47 GMT -5
So have you transitioned back to allowing some of the processed carbs again? My go-to strategy in the perpetual losing battle of the bulge was always exercise. When injury put me down I turned to Atkins, so the more dramatic weight losses I've had in my life have ironically been when I was sedentary, watching the pee stick turn purple. European history suggests why certain segments of the population do better with fewer carbs. Especially the deep, pre-history from archeology and modern genealogy. Yea body composition is like 80-90% about the food intake and less about exercise (unless you do A LOT.) I was at my lightest while training for marathons -- food intake couldn't keep up. I also shed pounds easily on this Atkins/Keto thingy. Unlike in the marathon days, I'm actually stronger now. Higher protein intake and resistance training has led to increased lean muscle mass. All that running burned quite a lot of muscle mass. I'm still not eating refined carbs (no sugar no grains -- nsng). I eat mostly 'above ground' plants and not too much fruit and meat. My issue now is maintaining or growing muscle while trying to keep my insulin levels low. The latter is important cuz of Type 3 Diabetes (aka Alzheimer's Disease, prevalent in fam history). re: the only thing folks seem to agree on regarding AD prevention is exercise. But there is some hope in the Type3Diabetes realm -- that neurons have developed some sort of insulin resistance and are no longer as able to metabolize glucose. Basically I'm doing a Hail Mary pass, thinking that keeping insulin load low is good. In the meantime, the nsng/keto has been pretty easy and has kept me lean and strong and clearheaded. That said, I do partake in carbs now and then -- like when my kids bake treats or on special occasions. Also, beer! Max, the best book I found on reducing blood sugar levels is Dr. Bernstein's Diabetes Solution, The Complete Guide to Achieving Normal Blood Sugars by Richard K Bernstein. In 1946 at age 12 Berstein was diagnosed with type 1 diabetes. In 1969 he started experimenting on himself checking his blood sugar levels 5-8 times a day. From this he was able to begin controling his blood sugar levels. By 1973 he tried to share what he had learned with others but nobody would listen to because of lack of credentials. So at age 45 he entered medical school and became a doctor. From different sources I also tried over a dozen supplements to help reduce blood sugar levels. The only one I found to really help is berberine. Get it, try it.
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Post by lolly on Jul 18, 2018 3:49:24 GMT -5
That's hil-arious. Hadn't heard of her before. Yes, I have to admit that this dialog is putting fasting into an entirely different light for me, thanks.
This book compares facets of fast food and other American abominations to other addictive substances. He coined a word in it: "hyperpalatable". Must be in the cardio section of the gym for this kind of talk. Preferred diet of powerlifters, here in Americuh, is the three p's, Pizza, Pepsi and Beer. Lolly will vouch for this, though it might be slightly different in the Outback. I just eat brown rice, sweet potato, lean meat and veg. Don't touch pizza or soda, but I'm partial to as occasional beer or six.
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Fasting
Jul 18, 2018 10:13:47 GMT -5
Post by Reefs on Jul 18, 2018 10:13:47 GMT -5
Humans really do not need to eat meat to live healthily. Excessive eating and meat-eating are examples in my view of unconscious and unreflective behaviour that is almost expected of us in the western world. People who fast or who refrain from meat are easily lampooned by a society that encourages consumption in general and eating in particular. I would say all the great sages and all the great teachings counsel moderation and self-discipline. Without self discipline of various kinds one can become lost among the thorns of the world (to echo Jesus' parable of the Sower) Personally I semi-fast every Sunday and never eat after 7pm, and my body is grateful for these small disciplines. It is not difficult to observe small disciplines if these disciplines become habitual. In the same way, observing the habit of regular silence is to refrain from gorging on words and opinions. May we all enjoy the blessings of moderation in eating and speaking! Moderation certainly works, especially when you combine it with meditation or introspection. There's a reason why people are drawn to certain foods at certain times or under certain circumstances and why they eat more then they actually should and why their bodies start breaking down at some point. Changing diet and fasting can do wonders here, but if we are only working on the physical level and ignore the psychological component then the achieved results won't last, or they are only sustainable with iron self-discipline. To me, however, that's no way to live. A strict diet or regimen is the typical rational clock time approach. But the body is not rational, the body has its own rhythms which sometimes align with clock time and sometimes not. My approach would be to get in touch with those rhythms and trust the body's own intelligence. And that can mean that at times you may eat all Sunday and then suddenly on Wednesday or Thursday you don't feel like eating at all. That's a much more natural and relaxed way of living if you can allow yourself that kind of freedom.
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Fasting
Jul 18, 2018 10:17:58 GMT -5
Post by Reefs on Jul 18, 2018 10:17:58 GMT -5
I read a book by Sri Yukteswar many years ago. He said the human body is not designed to eat meat. Animals that eat meat have a short digestive system so the meat passes through the system quickly. Humans have a long digestive system and meat begins to putrify before it completes the digestive process. Makes sense to me. Yes, I remember, in his book he says that humans are primarily fruit eaters, although he has a broader definition of fruits than just the dictionary definition.
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