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Post by zin on Jul 11, 2018 8:58:38 GMT -5
You are saying that I was describing my 'sleep'.
And here I'd like to tell something which I find a bit strange... 'Fourth Way' says self-remembering is man's birth right. And then this self-remembering is taught only in work groups or in teacher-student relationships which should continue at least half a year. While the sleep is so common in life of ordinary people, the cure is quite exceptional... I am not saying that it should be described everywhere.. But it is strange that it (self-remembering) is at least for some time a 'practice', done for a certain time or at x number of times in a given period. What I wrote in my above post is a simple thing.. so ordinary.. why does it take so many things to cure it? (not sure whether cure is the right word)
Gurdjieff said we are born awake but in a few years we go to sleep because we are raised by people who are asleep. And then most people remain asleep. We are born as essence. Then the self forms around essence, and our ~sense of who/what we are~ shifts from essence (what Is real In us) to personality (what is not-real in us, what is acquired). This is sleep. Now, why are the practices not given in public? One reason, we are self-developing organisms, a person has to choose this life. Another reason, the practices change you. One has to in a real sense be trained, to be somewhat prepared for the changes. Eventually, if one practices, there is a shift back to living through essence, ~who/what one really is~. This can be and will inevitably be disruptive. There is a very real perils of the path aspect. I was given the beginning practices on the condition that I not give then to anyone else without permission to do so. But people do not practice anyway. Even if one understands a little in the beginning, it takes a while to understand the value of practice. self-remembering is also called the first conscious shock. We all get accidental shocks in life, some smaller some greater. I was ten when John F Kennedy was assassinated. This is an example of a strong accidental shock. I remember where I was, what was said (in sixth grade teacher said, Boys and girls, our president has been shot). A strong shock like this (and it for everyone) puts one in the 4 centers simultaneously (what you asked about earlier). There are physiological changes in the organism which ~fixes~ the occurrence in the memory. Now, self-remembering is a shock one gives oneself, the first conscious shock. So, eventually, if one practices, the practice becomes the state. And eventually one again lives through their essence. One other thing in relation. Gurdjieff said as we are we do not have our own I. So down the road, the work is about having one's own I. But again, this has to be (self)-chosen. Choosing is (necessarily) a part of the process. Choosing this or that. Basically, at base, choosing to practice, or not. (But really, if one does not choose to practice, by default, you automatically are choosing not to practice). I know that's more than you wanted to know... No it isn't "more than I wanted to know". However, what seems to be presented here is an "either remain asleep, or become something quite different from 'ordinary life'." Yes the practices change people. But isn't "living through essence" the normal thing for a human? That's what I don't understand. What is the disruptiveness here? My idea is that people who become normal will eventually make the life normal (a life in which children are not put to 'sleep'). But maybe they will always be small in numbers..
PS. They say G. used the "Real I" expression in order to attract people??
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Post by zin on Jul 11, 2018 9:51:26 GMT -5
You are saying that I was describing my 'sleep'.
And here I'd like to tell something which I find a bit strange... 'Fourth Way' says self-remembering is man's birth right. And then this self-remembering is taught only in work groups or in teacher-student relationships which should continue at least half a year. While the sleep is so common in life of ordinary people, the cure is quite exceptional... I am not saying that it should be described everywhere.. But it is strange that it (self-remembering) is at least for some time a 'practice', done for a certain time or at x number of times in a given period. What I wrote in my above post is a simple thing.. so ordinary.. why does it take so many things to cure it? (not sure whether cure is the right word)
It's actually not too strange. As Nisargadata once said to a seeker, "You didn;t get into this mess overnight." The "mess" he was referring to is the mess of imagining that one is a separate entity inhabiting a body, and that reality is composed of other separate things. This doesn't happen overnight. It happens gradually as the intellect becomes dominant, and humans shift from a child-like way of directly interacting with reality through the senses to an adult-like way of interacting with ideas about reality. Staying in the I AM, ATA-T, zazen, Self-remembering, etc. are different ways of shifting attention away from thoughts to "what is." By constantly shifting attention away from thoughts it's possible to escape the attachment to ideas that keep most humans lost in the labyrinth of mind. The goal in most non-dual traditions is to attain non-abidance in mind, which Zen calls "no mind," and this attainment, which in some rare people happens suddenly, is usually something that happens only after a certain amount of practice. The brain exhibits what scientists call "neuro-plasticity" (which means that its functionality can be changed), and the brains of long-time mediators function quite differently than those of non-meditators. The same thing is true for some people who take psychedlic drugs and other people who have major realizations--they discover that there is a "Big Picture" of reality that is quite different from conventional conceptions of it. The most common path to non-abidance, the disappearance of "me," understanding, and a felt sense of oneness with "what is" is that of pursuing some activity that, in essence, is the shifting of attention away from thoughts to "what is." After a certain period of time there can be a sudden realization or experience of the Infinite, or a sudden realization that the entity one imagined oneself to be was a complete fiction. From my POV it doesn't seem surprising that this process usually takes from 5 to 15 years, or even longer. I think the difference between what we are saying is that I talk about the momentary act of self-remembering or ATA-T whereas you are talking about a permanent shift or realization. I was wondering about why it takes so long to introduce people into self-remembering... But of course, I don't know whether it immediately makes a difference in the person or not (and sdp says the story does not end with teaching the practice, eventually it can bring dangerous results).
"Staying in the I AM, ATA-T, zazen, Self-remembering, etc. are different ways of shifting attention away from thoughts to "what is." By constantly shifting attention away from thoughts it's possible to escape the attachment to ideas that keep most humans lost in the labyrinth of mind."
I understand the power of attachment to thoughts and what you write above. But in the end you found that you were not what you thought you were and the universe is inifinite, alive.. whereas G tradition does not leave it there. I am not inclined towards ideas like "some teachings create superhumans". But about some people I have a feeling of: they're pushing the borders. They cause changes in consciousness of massess. They are able to see what a big group can do, for example. I don't know what I'm saying exactly, but I am saying that it looks like some abilities are added to people who practice some things. Maybe this can be called 'evolution'.. or maybe not?..
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jul 11, 2018 12:54:44 GMT -5
Gurdjieff said we are born awake but in a few years we go to sleep because we are raised by people who are asleep. And then most people remain asleep. We are born as essence. Then the self forms around essence, and our ~sense of who/what we are~ shifts from essence (what Is real In us) to personality (what is not-real in us, what is acquired). This is sleep. Now, why are the practices not given in public? One reason, we are self-developing organisms, a person has to choose this life. Another reason, the practices change you. One has to in a real sense be trained, to be somewhat prepared for the changes. Eventually, if one practices, there is a shift back to living through essence, ~who/what one really is~. This can be and will inevitably be disruptive. There is a very real perils of the path aspect. I was given the beginning practices on the condition that I not give then to anyone else without permission to do so. But people do not practice anyway. Even if one understands a little in the beginning, it takes a while to understand the value of practice. self-remembering is also called the first conscious shock. We all get accidental shocks in life, some smaller some greater. I was ten when John F Kennedy was assassinated. This is an example of a strong accidental shock. I remember where I was, what was said (in sixth grade teacher said, Boys and girls, our president has been shot). A strong shock like this (and it for everyone) puts one in the 4 centers simultaneously (what you asked about earlier). There are physiological changes in the organism which ~fixes~ the occurrence in the memory. Now, self-remembering is a shock one gives oneself, the first conscious shock. So, eventually, if one practices, the practice becomes the state. And eventually one again lives through their essence. One other thing in relation. Gurdjieff said as we are we do not have our own I. So down the road, the work is about having one's own I. But again, this has to be (self)-chosen. Choosing is (necessarily) a part of the process. Choosing this or that. Basically, at base, choosing to practice, or not. (But really, if one does not choose to practice, by default, you automatically are choosing not to practice). I know that's more than you wanted to know... No it isn't "more than I wanted to know". However, what seems to be presented here is an "either remain asleep, or become something quite different from 'ordinary life'." Yes the practices change people. But isn't "living through essence" the normal thing for a human? That's what I don't understand. What is the disruptiveness here? My idea is that people who become normal will eventually make the life normal (a life in which children are not put to 'sleep'). But maybe they will always be small in numbers..
PS. They say G. used the "Real I" expression in order to attract people??
This gets very complicated, and discussing it here it is merely theoretical, I should stop but I can't help indulging myself. We are two people. From what I've read (Roger Sperry split brain research) and studied and pondered and surmised (the Jill Bolte book My Stroke of Insight, makes it pretty clear) the 'two people' live in the left and right brain hemispheres. Essence basically doesn't speak English (or any abstraction language. I would say that essence speaks the language of form, like animals [see Temple Grandin, Thinking in Pictures]). It is said in the work that eventually one must realize their nothingness. Personality (what we ordinarily call our self) consists of the contents of the centers, virtually everything we think and feel and do (note this doesn't include the instinctive center, which controls physiological functions). In some people personality and essence are very similar (I would say Einstein is an example, for some reason [learning] speech was delayed in Einstein, I'd say this has something to do with it). ...Skipping a lot....fully, to realize one's nothingness means to empty the centers of their contents. So, then, how would you function in life? (Again, see Jill Bolte). First education is the formation of personality. There is a second education possible, this is the education of essence. This transition is what is difficult (again, see Jill Bolte). It is dangerous (from your reply to ZD) in the sense that one can become vulnerable again, like a little child. So, then, yes, living through essence is the way things should be, but earth lives under abnormal conditions (the consequences of the organ kundabuffer, basically, what's imaginary versus what's real). ....going to watch England v Croatia....but that's basically it...
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Post by zendancer on Jul 11, 2018 16:25:24 GMT -5
It's actually not too strange. As Nisargadata once said to a seeker, "You didn;t get into this mess overnight." The "mess" he was referring to is the mess of imagining that one is a separate entity inhabiting a body, and that reality is composed of other separate things. This doesn't happen overnight. It happens gradually as the intellect becomes dominant, and humans shift from a child-like way of directly interacting with reality through the senses to an adult-like way of interacting with ideas about reality. Staying in the I AM, ATA-T, zazen, Self-remembering, etc. are different ways of shifting attention away from thoughts to "what is." By constantly shifting attention away from thoughts it's possible to escape the attachment to ideas that keep most humans lost in the labyrinth of mind. The goal in most non-dual traditions is to attain non-abidance in mind, which Zen calls "no mind," and this attainment, which in some rare people happens suddenly, is usually something that happens only after a certain amount of practice. The brain exhibits what scientists call "neuro-plasticity" (which means that its functionality can be changed), and the brains of long-time mediators function quite differently than those of non-meditators. The same thing is true for some people who take psychedlic drugs and other people who have major realizations--they discover that there is a "Big Picture" of reality that is quite different from conventional conceptions of it. The most common path to non-abidance, the disappearance of "me," understanding, and a felt sense of oneness with "what is" is that of pursuing some activity that, in essence, is the shifting of attention away from thoughts to "what is." After a certain period of time there can be a sudden realization or experience of the Infinite, or a sudden realization that the entity one imagined oneself to be was a complete fiction. From my POV it doesn't seem surprising that this process usually takes from 5 to 15 years, or even longer. I think the difference between what we are saying is that I talk about the momentary act of self-remembering or ATA-T whereas you are talking about a permanent shift or realization. I was wondering about why it takes so long to introduce people into self-remembering... But of course, I don't know whether it immediately makes a difference in the person or not (and sdp says the story does not end with teaching the practice, eventually it can bring dangerous results).
"Staying in the I AM, ATA-T, zazen, Self-remembering, etc. are different ways of shifting attention away from thoughts to "what is." By constantly shifting attention away from thoughts it's possible to escape the attachment to ideas that keep most humans lost in the labyrinth of mind."
I understand the power of attachment to thoughts and what you write above. But in the end you found that you were not what you thought you were and the universe is inifinite, alive.. whereas G tradition does not leave it there. I am not inclined towards ideas like "some teachings create superhumans". But about some people I have a feeling of: they're pushing the borders. They cause changes in consciousness of massess. They are able to see what a big group can do, for example. I don't know what I'm saying exactly, but I am saying that it looks like some abilities are added to people who practice some things. Maybe this can be called 'evolution'.. or maybe not?.. Yes, I'm talking about a permanent shift from abidance in mind to non-abidance, from feeling as if there's a "me" at the center of whatever is happening, to a felt sense of oneness with "what is" (no separate "me") or a felt sense of pure isness. Until that shift occurs, which we term "SR," it feels as though there is a "me" making an effort to shift attention away from thoughts. After the "me" vanishes, and it becomes obvious that there never was a "me," everything is seen, felt, and understood quite differently--more like a ceaseless flow of being, or an unfoldment of the Infinite, or a play of consciousness. Thoughts appear, but they don't belong to a someone. After the shift, it no longer matters whether there is thinking or an absence of thinking because everything that's happening is seen to be issuing from Source rather than a person. I don't know enough about G.'s system to comment upon it, but exercises like ATA-T, breath-counting, breath following, or mantra repetition, are simple to describe and involve no secrets. They will appeal to some seekers and not to others in the same way that formal sitting meditation will appeal to some people and not others. FWIW, some people in the Adya tradition sit and don't attempt to do anything at all. They just sit in silence. I'm a global thinker, so I was always interested in the common theme or common activity involved in all of the different non-dual traditions. I finally concluded that the one thing they all have in common is attentiveness that is not directed toward engagement with thought. In most traditions there is a conscious shift of attention away from thoughts to direct perception. Mindfulness is the only tradition that purposely attends thoughts, but in that tradition people are encouraged to passively and impersonally watch thoughts rather than follow them or engage with them. IOW, all non-dual traditions ignore, passively watch, or actively shift attention away from thinking (and especially self-referential thinking), and this ultimately can lead to unity of body, mind, and universe.
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Post by Reefs on Feb 12, 2019 8:50:16 GMT -5
Yes, muscle memory is a big part of it. He's basically mastered all the possible moves. I watched an interview with him where he explains how he did it. He basically looked at the cube and somehow saw the first three to four first moves, then he made sure he 'got into the zone' and the rest was automatic. This is an interesting case of flow and non-doing. Reminds me of Zhuangzi's story about the cook and his knife. Yes. And as in spirituality, easy and playful takes it to the next level. Just watch:
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