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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2018 12:46:36 GMT -5
As you grow older the pernicious effects of time becomes painfully self evident.
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Post by laughter on Jul 1, 2018 22:33:11 GMT -5
As you grow older the pernicious effects of time becomes painfully self evident.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2018 6:49:52 GMT -5
As you grow older the pernicious effects of time becomes painfully self evident. Breaking: Perturbed elderly man shakes fist at sky; injures wrist.
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Post by zin on Jul 2, 2018 8:00:41 GMT -5
Breaking: Perturbed elderly man shakes fist at sky; injures wrist. That's rebellion at god! He deserved it!
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Post by explorer on Jul 2, 2018 16:20:07 GMT -5
Interesting that the plug was pulled on the World Cup 2018 thread but this thread on Time and Flow and Perception in Sports is deemed to be ok? Are they so different? If we look at Messi or Ronaldo or Modric in their pomp, we see the perfect examples of....err.... time and flow and perception! So, what is supposed to be unspiritual about talking about the World Cup? hmm.. and what else is unspiritual? Politics? Relationships? Religion? .... So what are we left with? Meditation? Silence? Nature? Music? Cartoons? Haikus? hmm..... an interestingly odd mixture on the permitted list!
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jul 2, 2018 16:27:02 GMT -5
Interesting that the plug was pulled on the World Cup 2018 thread but this thread on Time and Flow and Perception in Sports is deemed to be ok? Are they so different? If we look at Messi or Ronaldo or Modric in their pomp, we see the perfect examples of....err.... time and flow and perception! So, what is supposed to be unspiritual about talking about the World Cup? hmm.. and what else is unspiritual? Politics? Relationships? Religion? .... So what are we left with? Meditation? Silence? Nature? Music? Cartoons? Haikus? hmm..... an interestingly odd mixture on the permitted list! Form is emptiness...emptiness is form. The Heart Sutra (But...time and space and perception and flow are things we have talked about here for years...)... "I never mind about the little things". A line has to be drawn somewhere....doesn't it? ....I mean...surely, nobody considers that we live in a _______ world, do they? {It will all be over in two weeks anyway...}
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Post by zin on Jul 2, 2018 19:05:26 GMT -5
Can you give a few quotes about the differences between the functions in that regard? I thought about earlier letting people guess, well, not guess, but figure out, which functions are faster. Now, keep in mind, this is an explanation for why we experience, personally, the differences in the flow of time. It is said that each function differs, when their proper energy is used (that's an important qualification), by a significant factor. So, in order, which functions are quickest to slowest? (1) Thinking; (2) moving (learned movements like walking, humans are not born with the ability to walk immediately); (3) feeling, meaning emotional; and (4) instinctive, meaning the five senses and the inner workings of the organism like blood pumping and food digestion, things we are born with and do not have to be learned. .......... I remember reading about these things and it was like ordinary thinking is slowest, instinctive function is fastest, ordinary emotions are somewhere in between, etc.. And then, when there is higher functioning emotions get quite faster. My interest is there, in the 'high' functionings of thinking and feeling, where we "know all that we know at once" and "feel everything at once". So it is a definition of timelessness I think. When there isn't successiveness and there aren't fragments, it is timeless... At the same time, the difference between the low and high workings of emotional function (and here fast does not mean being excited!) can be the line between personal and impersonal?
I ask that because I don't wish to write about theories or info on differences of speed between functions (if your quotes are about that, that's ok though). I wonder whether there is a line beyond which the ordinary selfishness (heaviness) is not possible! There are some quotes related to this in my mind but as this is essentially a 'perception of time' thread, I hesitate about writing more.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2018 3:39:26 GMT -5
Breaking: Perturbed elderly man shakes fist at sky; injures wrist. That's rebellion at god! He deserved it! "A house divided against itself cannot stand"
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Post by Reefs on Jul 3, 2018 5:53:30 GMT -5
Breaking: Perturbed elderly man shakes fist at sky; injures wrist. That's rebellion at god! He deserved it! Haha, you guys are funny!
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Post by zendancer on Jul 3, 2018 8:07:12 GMT -5
I thought about earlier letting people guess, well, not guess, but figure out, which functions are faster. Now, keep in mind, this is an explanation for why we experience, personally, the differences in the flow of time. It is said that each function differs, when their proper energy is used (that's an important qualification), by a significant factor. So, in order, which functions are quickest to slowest? (1) Thinking; (2) moving (learned movements like walking, humans are not born with the ability to walk immediately); (3) feeling, meaning emotional; and (4) instinctive, meaning the five senses and the inner workings of the organism like blood pumping and food digestion, things we are born with and do not have to be learned. .......... I remember reading about these things and it was like ordinary thinking is slowest, instinctive function is fastest, ordinary emotions are somewhere in between, etc.. And then, when there is higher functioning emotions get quite faster. My interest is there, in the 'high' functionings of thinking and feeling, where we "know all that we know at once" and "feel everything at once". So it is a definition of timelessness I think. When there isn't successiveness and there aren't fragments, it is timeless... At the same time, the difference between the low and high workings of emotional function (and here fast does not mean being excited!) can be the line between personal and impersonal? I ask that because I don't wish to write about theories or info on differences of speed between functions (if your quotes are about that, that's ok though). I wonder whether there is a line beyond which the ordinary selfishness (heaviness) is not possible! There are some quotes related to this in my mind but as this is essentially a 'perception of time' thread, I hesitate about writing more.
Yes, a sage lives in a kind of timelessness because s/he has rewired the brain to remain focused on whatever is happening in the present moment. There may be some occasional self-reflection, but it's minor, and quite different from the usual self-referential way of interacting with the world that Charles Tart has called "the concensus trance state" and which some neuroscientists refer to as "the default mode network." Tolle probably writes and talks about the eternal NOW more than any other non-duality sage. When the mind is quiescent (not ruminating or thinking self-referentially), life is a kind of flow from activity to activity, and the passage of time is rarely reflected upon or experienced. They function much like little children who don;t worry about the future or reflect upon the past. One of the reasons little children are happy is because the intellect has not yet become a dominating influence. They live in a state of mind analogous to what Zen people call "no mind"--a state of being in which the body functions appropriately without reflection. The intellect appears within awareness, and awareness is the fundamental reality. People who have deep CC experiences realize that if the entire universe disappeared, awareness would still be present because it supersedes all else and is infinite--beyond space and time. In fact, time and space are solely products of thought, and are based upon the cognitive idea of separation.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jul 3, 2018 18:33:13 GMT -5
I thought about earlier letting people guess, well, not guess, but figure out, which functions are faster. Now, keep in mind, this is an explanation for why we experience, personally, the differences in the flow of time. It is said that each function differs, when their proper energy is used (that's an important qualification), by a significant factor. So, in order, which functions are quickest to slowest? (1) Thinking; (2) moving (learned movements like walking, humans are not born with the ability to walk immediately); (3) feeling, meaning emotional; and (4) instinctive, meaning the five senses and the inner workings of the organism like blood pumping and food digestion, things we are born with and do not have to be learned. .......... I remember reading about these things and it was like ordinary thinking is slowest, instinctive function is fastest, ordinary emotions are somewhere in between, etc.. And then, when there is higher functioning emotions get quite faster. My interest is there, in the 'high' functionings of thinking intellectual {the somewhat better word, as ordinary abstract thought plays no part} and feeling {and higher emotional is the better word, so as not to confuse the word feeling with sensation}, where we "know all that we know at once" and "feel everything at once". So it is a definition of timelessness I think. When there isn't successiveness and there aren't fragments, it is timeless... At the same time, the difference between the low and high workings of emotional function (and here fast does not mean being excited!) can be the line between personal and impersonal? I ask that because I don't wish to write about theories or info on differences of speed between functions (if your quotes are about that, that's ok though). I wonder whether there is a line beyond which the ordinary selfishness (heaviness) is not possible! There are some quotes related to this in my mind but as this is essentially a 'perception of time' thread, I hesitate about writing more.
Well, you can discover in yourself which is ordinarily fastest and which is ordinarily slowest. {The other arises out of the principle: "First you have to row a little boat"}. When does time drag and go slowly? One example is standing in a line. What are you mostly doing standing in a line? Thinking. (And then does time go by faster or more slowly while one is walking?, or gardening?, or taking pictures?, or playing a game?) Yes, thinking operates with the ~coarse least-fine energy~. Except in rare instances, maybe once or two in one's life, we do not ordinarily access the higher emotional or higher intellectual centers. Yes, these work with the highest, finest energies in man. Yes, to be-in the higher emotional center all sense of ego has been left behind, so correct, there is no sense of selfishness or heaviness. Basically, there is no sense of want for anything, the state itself is sufficient. But it is based upon a certain quality and quantity of energy. Do you know anything about poker? This is not a perfect analogy. Everything we do every day expends energy. Every hand in poker you have to ante in, put a certain amount of money in the pot. So you are "expending energy". So everything you do in an ordinary sense (walk, cook meals, eat, take pictures, go to the grocery store, read, help with homework, go to the post office, a thousand etcs.) requires and expends a certain amount of energy (these are called mechanical efforts). But then everything one does consciously, in the midst of ordinary efforts, saves a certain amount of energy. And then if one self-remembers in the midst of ordinary life, this transforms energy to a finer quality not ordinarily experienced in life. Now visualize two trains running on parallel tracks. One track [#1] is the emotional center, one track [#2] is the higher emotional center. The higher emotional "train" runs at ~only one speed~, say 100 MPH (or KPH). The emotional center train can run at various speeds (on a better or poorer quality of energy). The higher emotional center can only be accessed through the (ordinary) emotional center. So say you wish to ~get off~ of track #1 and ~ride~ on track #2. How could you safely do it? You have to get train #1 up to the speed of train #2, and then with both trains running side by side at the same speed, you can just step over from one train to the other. And only as long as you have sufficient energy, can you ~stay in~ the higher emotional center. So let's go back to poker. By winning hands you are accumulating chips/money/[energy of a certain quality]. At a certain point the game might get serious enough for you to choose to go "All in", bet all your chips on a certain hand. This may be the only way to accumulate enough energy of a certain quality to be able to ride train #2. So, again, how do we save energy? By a certain kind of conscious effort called self-observation, which has to do with attention. And how do we transform [ that] energy to be able to ride train #2? By the conscious effort called self-remembering, which has to do with awareness. So/but, you never get to ride train #2 ( except sometimes under certain circumstances possibly/maybe once or twice in one's life) apart from conscious efforts and voluntary suffering and then some day intentional suffering. But then one must crawl before they walk and walk before they run (row a little boat). But/then/and everything begins with one's aim.
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Post by enigma on Jul 3, 2018 19:43:58 GMT -5
I remember reading about these things and it was like ordinary thinking is slowest, instinctive function is fastest, ordinary emotions are somewhere in between, etc.. And then, when there is higher functioning emotions get quite faster. My interest is there, in the 'high' functionings of thinking intellectual {the somewhat better word, as ordinary abstract thought plays no part} and feeling {and higher emotional is the better word, so as not to confuse the word feeling with sensation}, where we "know all that we know at once" and "feel everything at once". So it is a definition of timelessness I think. When there isn't successiveness and there aren't fragments, it is timeless... At the same time, the difference between the low and high workings of emotional function (and here fast does not mean being excited!) can be the line between personal and impersonal? I ask that because I don't wish to write about theories or info on differences of speed between functions (if your quotes are about that, that's ok though). I wonder whether there is a line beyond which the ordinary selfishness (heaviness) is not possible! There are some quotes related to this in my mind but as this is essentially a 'perception of time' thread, I hesitate about writing more.
Well, you can discover in yourself which is ordinarily fastest and which is ordinarily slowest. {The other arises out of the principle: "First you have to row a little boat"}. When does time drag and go slowly? One example is standing in a line. What are you mostly doing standing in a line? Thinking. (And then does time go by faster or more slowly while one is walking?, or gardening?, or taking pictures?, or playing a game?) Yes, thinking operates with the ~coarse least-fine energy~. Except in rare instances, maybe once or two in one's life, we do not ordinarily access the higher emotional or higher intellectual centers. Yes, these work with the highest, finest energies in man. Yes, to be-in the higher emotional center all sense of ego has been left behind, so correct, there is no sense of selfishness or heaviness. Basically, there is no sense of want for anything, the state itself is sufficient. But it is based upon a certain quality and quantity of energy. Do you know anything about poker? This is not a perfect analogy. Everything we do every day expends energy. Every hand in poker you have to ante in, put a certain amount of money in the pot. So you are "expending energy". So everything you do in an ordinary sense (walk, cook meals, eat, take pictures, go to the grocery store, read, help with homework, go to the post office, a thousand etcs.) requires and expends a certain amount of energy (these are called mechanical efforts). But then everything one does consciously, in the midst of ordinary efforts, saves a certain amount of energy. And then if one self-remembers in the midst of ordinary life, this transforms energy to a finer quality not ordinarily experienced in life. Now visualize two trains running on parallel tracks. One track [#1] is the emotional center, one track [#2] is the higher emotional center. The higher emotional "train" runs at ~only one speed~, say 100 MPH (or KPH). The emotional center train can run at various speeds (on a better or poorer quality of energy). The higher emotional center can only be accessed through the (ordinary) emotional center. So say you wish to ~get off~ of track #1 and ~ride~ on track #2. How could you safely do it? You have to get train #1 up to the speed of train #2, and then with both trains running side by side at the same speed, you can just step over from one train to the other. And only as long as you have sufficient energy, can you ~stay in~ the higher emotional center. So let's go back to poker. By winning hands you are accumulating chips/money/[energy of a certain quality]. At a certain point the game might get serious enough for you to choose to go "All in", bet all your chips on a certain hand. This may be the only way to accumulate enough energy of a certain quality to be able to ride train #2. So, again, how do we save energy? By a certain kind of conscious effort called self-observation, which has to do with attention. And how do we transform [ that] energy to be able to ride train #2? By the conscious effort called self-remembering, which has to do with awareness. So/but, you never get to ride train #2 ( except sometimes under certain circumstances possibly/maybe once or twice in one's life) apart from conscious efforts and voluntary suffering and then some day intentional suffering. But then one must crawl before they walk and walk before they run (row a little boat). But/then/and everything begins with one's aim. It depends on how interested/engaged one is with a given activity. Based on that, time will drag or go quickly. That IS your personal experience. It doesn't directly relate to whether one is thinking, moving, feeling, sensing. One may be highly entertained by their own thoughts, and time spent that way may fly as a result. Also, thinking is slower than feeling because thinking is a process and feeling is not.
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Post by laughter on Jul 4, 2018 3:37:52 GMT -5
I thought about earlier letting people guess, well, not guess, but figure out, which functions are faster. Now, keep in mind, this is an explanation for why we experience, personally, the differences in the flow of time. It is said that each function differs, when their proper energy is used (that's an important qualification), by a significant factor. So, in order, which functions are quickest to slowest? (1) Thinking; (2) moving (learned movements like walking, humans are not born with the ability to walk immediately); (3) feeling, meaning emotional; and (4) instinctive, meaning the five senses and the inner workings of the organism like blood pumping and food digestion, things we are born with and do not have to be learned. .......... I remember reading about these things and it was like ordinary thinking is slowest, instinctive function is fastest, ordinary emotions are somewhere in between, etc.. And then, when there is higher functioning emotions get quite faster. My interest is there, in the 'high' functionings of thinking and feeling, where we "know all that we know at once" and "feel everything at once". So it is a definition of timelessness I think. When there isn't successiveness and there aren't fragments, it is timeless... At the same time, the difference between the low and high workings of emotional function (and here fast does not mean being excited!) can be the line between personal and impersonal? I ask that because I don't wish to write about theories or info on differences of speed between functions (if your quotes are about that, that's ok though). I wonder whether there is a line beyond which the ordinary selfishness (heaviness) is not possible! There are some quotes related to this in my mind but as this is essentially a 'perception of time' thread, I hesitate about writing more.
Thinking is slowest relative to action. In other words, actions that are thought-out, are deliberate, whereas action that isn't thought out, but instead, spontaneous, are more fluid. At the extreme, sports and some vocations involve conditioning the body/mind to respond quickly, typically by repeating the same action many times. There is a decided lightness of feeling the expression of these kinds of conditioned movements as they happen. Emotional conditioning is a different matter altogether. Leaving emotional heaviness behind might involve changes to conditioning, but conditioning is only secondary and incidental to leaving it behind on a permanent basis.
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Post by laughter on Jul 4, 2018 3:40:19 GMT -5
Well, you can discover in yourself which is ordinarily fastest and which is ordinarily slowest. {The other arises out of the principle: "First you have to row a little boat"}. When does time drag and go slowly? One example is standing in a line. What are you mostly doing standing in a line? Thinking. (And then does time go by faster or more slowly while one is walking?, or gardening?, or taking pictures?, or playing a game?) Yes, thinking operates with the ~coarse least-fine energy~. Except in rare instances, maybe once or two in one's life, we do not ordinarily access the higher emotional or higher intellectual centers. Yes, these work with the highest, finest energies in man. Yes, to be-in the higher emotional center all sense of ego has been left behind, so correct, there is no sense of selfishness or heaviness. Basically, there is no sense of want for anything, the state itself is sufficient. But it is based upon a certain quality and quantity of energy. Do you know anything about poker? This is not a perfect analogy. Everything we do every day expends energy. Every hand in poker you have to ante in, put a certain amount of money in the pot. So you are "expending energy". So everything you do in an ordinary sense (walk, cook meals, eat, take pictures, go to the grocery store, read, help with homework, go to the post office, a thousand etcs.) requires and expends a certain amount of energy (these are called mechanical efforts). But then everything one does consciously, in the midst of ordinary efforts, saves a certain amount of energy. And then if one self-remembers in the midst of ordinary life, this transforms energy to a finer quality not ordinarily experienced in life. Now visualize two trains running on parallel tracks. One track [#1] is the emotional center, one track [#2] is the higher emotional center. The higher emotional "train" runs at ~only one speed~, say 100 MPH (or KPH). The emotional center train can run at various speeds (on a better or poorer quality of energy). The higher emotional center can only be accessed through the (ordinary) emotional center. So say you wish to ~get off~ of track #1 and ~ride~ on track #2. How could you safely do it? You have to get train #1 up to the speed of train #2, and then with both trains running side by side at the same speed, you can just step over from one train to the other. And only as long as you have sufficient energy, can you ~stay in~ the higher emotional center. So let's go back to poker. By winning hands you are accumulating chips/money/[energy of a certain quality]. At a certain point the game might get serious enough for you to choose to go "All in", bet all your chips on a certain hand. This may be the only way to accumulate enough energy of a certain quality to be able to ride train #2. So, again, how do we save energy? By a certain kind of conscious effort called self-observation, which has to do with attention. And how do we transform [ that] energy to be able to ride train #2? By the conscious effort called self-remembering, which has to do with awareness. So/but, you never get to ride train #2 ( except sometimes under certain circumstances possibly/maybe once or twice in one's life) apart from conscious efforts and voluntary suffering and then some day intentional suffering. But then one must crawl before they walk and walk before they run (row a little boat). But/then/and everything begins with one's aim. It depends on how interested/engaged one is with a given activity. Based on that, time will drag or go quickly. That IS your personal experience. It doesn't directly relate to whether one is thinking, moving, feeling, sensing. One may be highly entertained by their own thoughts, and time spent that way may fly as a result. Also, thinking is slower than feeling because thinking is a process and feeling is not. Hmmmm ... I conceive of feeling in several different contexts, but in each one of them there's always some underlying process involved.
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Post by enigma on Jul 4, 2018 10:01:44 GMT -5
It depends on how interested/engaged one is with a given activity. Based on that, time will drag or go quickly. That IS your personal experience. It doesn't directly relate to whether one is thinking, moving, feeling, sensing. One may be highly entertained by their own thoughts, and time spent that way may fly as a result. Also, thinking is slower than feeling because thinking is a process and feeling is not. Hmmmm ... I conceive of feeling in several different contexts, but in each one of them there's always some underlying process involved. Yeah, feeling is stimulated by thought and involves memory/conditioning and sense perception, so there's a complex process involved, but apparently we're trying to separate thought, feeling, sense perception and intuition, and look at what is experienced as slow and fast. Experientially, a feeling just appears, it doesn't develop slowly. This is why peeps think feeling isn't tied to thought.
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