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Post by laughter on Aug 23, 2017 10:25:34 GMT -5
Now when I said there are "useful" distinctions. I should have added the caveat that they are only useful in specific contexts. Taken as universal truths these same distinctions can be dangerous. Couldn't let laughter have the last word.
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Post by redglove on Aug 24, 2017 22:55:36 GMT -5
So here's a question for all those who experience themselves continuously in the natural state: what is your experience of the act of reading something tricky and complex? Do you find yourself "watching yourself read," so that the act of complex reading requires no more effort than watching someone else read? Or do you find yourself temporarily "losing your self-awareness" in the act of such reading, since it seems to require focused mental effort?
How is it similar or different for any other task which seems to require cognitive intensity?
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Post by zendancer on Aug 26, 2017 18:09:57 GMT -5
So here's a question for all those who experience themselves continuously in the natural state: what is your experience of the act of reading something tricky and complex? Do you find yourself "watching yourself read," so that the act of complex reading requires no more effort than watching someone else read? Or do you find yourself temporarily "losing your self-awareness" in the act of such reading, since it seems to require focused mental effort? How is it similar or different for any other task which seems to require cognitive intensity? A condition of samadhi is one in which ordinary selfhood is absent. What this means is that self-reflection ceases for a while. Maybe while one is building a model airplane, or building a rock wall, or working on a car, or hoeing a garden, etc. one "gets into the activity" so totally that self-reflection does not occur. Most states of samadhi are transient, but after a while, self-reflection returns, along with the sense of being a separate person. Even the deepest state of samadhi--nirvikalpa--is transient. The Natural State, or sahaja samadhi, occurs after the sense of personal selfhood is discovered to have been an illusion. After it is understood that separateness is an illusion, then the old sense of selfhood as a separate entity, ceases, and there is a flow to life that includes everything, even cognitive intensity. When focused mental effort is required, then focused mental effort takes place, but it is not ascribed to a personal doer in the way that it was prior to penetrating the illusion of selfhood.
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Post by redglove on Aug 29, 2017 11:36:48 GMT -5
So what do you make of Ramana's statement that "After the mind ceases to exist and bliss of peace has been realised, one will find it then as difficult to bring out a thought, as he now finds it difficult to keep out all thoughts. ... If one wants to abide in the thought-free state, a struggle is inevitable."
These suggest not merely a lack of doership ascribed, but a lack of thought, period, a thought-freeness. No? Or how do you experience that?
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Post by zendancer on Aug 29, 2017 13:36:49 GMT -5
So what do you make of Ramana's statement that "After the mind ceases to exist and bliss of peace has been realised, one will find it then as difficult to bring out a thought, as he now finds it difficult to keep out all thoughts. ... If one wants to abide in the thought-free state, a struggle is inevitable." These suggest not merely a lack of doership ascribed, but a lack of thought, period, a thought- freeness. No? Or how do you experience that? I'm guessing that Ramana is not typical of most people who pursue a path to non-duality. He reportedly sat in nirvikalpa samadhi for YEARS. Most people are lucky if they can even enter that state, and those that do rarely stay in that state of deep absorption for more than a few hours. It is a thought-free perception-free blissful state of pure awareness, and Ramana was quite young when he began staying in that state (between the age of about 17 and 24). After he began spending his time more normally, it still wasn't normal normal, and he reportedly didn't talk much for several years. From my experience with NS, his words make total sense. When one exits NS, it feels as if the body/mind is thawing out as it comes back to normal. Thoughts gradually get cranked back up, but it takes a while (depending upon the depth of NS and the duration of it) for the internal dialogue to get fully back up to speed. If someone remained in NS for an extremely long period of time (days or even weeks), one would be thought-free upon exiting that state, and it might take a long time before thoughts returned to anything like normal. In all likelihood, Ramana is probably one of the few people in human history who has ever been drawn to remain in that deep state of mind for a period of many years. Most people who attain TNS never spend extremely long periods of time in NS, and their experiences will vary depending upon how they spent their time. As I've mentioned before, this body/mind was drawn to do ATA-T as an everyday activity because I was curious to know whether it was possible for an adult to learn to look at the world and interact with the world in a thought-free state. Learning to be in the world in a significantly thought-free state of mind is not difficult, but it does require a certain amount of persistence. In my case, it took two or three years before a gap between thoughts could be seen without a thought arising ABOUT that seeing. Someone with a less talkative mind than I had might become aware of the gaps and experience mental silence much sooner. The good news is that anyone who is willing (or is sufficiently interested) to keep shifting attention away from thoughts to direct sensory perception can eventually attain a significantly-thought-free mind, and internal silence seems to result in existential realizations (thinking divides; silence unifies). Today, "I" can stop thinking at will and remain in a thought-free state for as long as desired, but "I" hope it is understood that "I" am not doing this. The Infinite is the only doer, and in the form of this body/mind It chose to do ATA-T, and IT does whatever this body/mind does. A few days ago "I" hiked on the "mountain-to-sea trail" near Asheville, NC, for several hours, and the mind was extraordinarily silent. For long periods of time (15 minutes at a stretch) there was just looking, listening, and feeling. No thoughts at all. However, the main point is that even if thoughts occur, it's not a big deal, and a super-silent mind is not special. After realizing that there is no person behind what's going on, it doesn't matter whether there are thoughts or no thoughts. I operate two businesses, and sometimes there's lots of thoughts about many different issues, and that, too, is what IT does. In TNS there is no inside or outside; there is only "what is" doing whatever "what is" does, and the flowing nature of "what is" can be known and lived as "what is." What we are is "what is," and there is no other.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2017 11:04:07 GMT -5
So what do you make of Ramana's statement that "After the mind ceases to exist and bliss of peace has been realised, one will find it then as difficult to bring out a thought, as he now finds it difficult to keep out all thoughts. ... If one wants to abide in the thought-free state, a struggle is inevitable." These suggest not merely a lack of doership ascribed, but a lack of thought, period, a thought- freeness. No? Or how do you experience that? Let me first comment that your initial question stopped thought, Redglove. It cut to the heart of the matter. Your quotes from Ramana are obviously contradictory. One can ascribe their differences to context. But really, who cares? if you are basing your inherent freedom on what Ramana said or didn't say then you are disregarding the core of his advice. Not that you should or shouldn't. "If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him...." I lose my sense of self, separation, when I read or study difficult things -- temporary freedom. Thought free state is available to anyone at any time. Sleep, among others. Induced naturally or otherwise. Open your eyes and there is nothing, but thought, unless you believe you and the objects you see are separate and real. The world and thoughts arise out of a sense of discomfort, that sense of separation, of lacking, examine that, that is the way back to nothing.
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Post by redglove on Sept 9, 2017 10:54:58 GMT -5
This makes sense. Thanks for the edifying -- thoughts!
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Post by redglove on Sept 9, 2017 10:59:07 GMT -5
Is that freedom, though? I wonder. I think that might be more like unconsciousness. Real freedom seems to me to consist in seeing clearly the merely surface-like-nature of self rather than in the loss of the sense of it. To put it another way, it seems to be the seeing of the sense of self in the larger perspective rather than the loss of it through a narrowing of perspective. That narrowing perspective -- focusing, concentration -- may be necessary as preliminary mental preparation, that's all... IMO.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Sept 10, 2017 10:46:52 GMT -5
Is that freedom, though? I wonder. I think that might be more like unconsciousness. Real freedom seems to me to consist in seeing clearly the merely surface-like-nature of self rather than in the loss of the sense of it. To put it another way, it seems to be the seeing of the sense of self in the larger perspective rather than the loss of it through a narrowing of perspective. That narrowing perspective -- focusing, concentration -- may be necessary as preliminary mental preparation, that's all... IMO. Yes. For some "cross pollination"I think you'll find some relationship to this on the arousing the mind thread.
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Post by etolle on Dec 16, 2018 19:34:21 GMT -5
the difference in reading this about 1 yr ago and today is tremendous...experiencing "what is" is so real..it sort of reminds me of a time about 30/40 yrs ago when I took acid..
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Post by justlikeyou on Dec 16, 2018 19:48:09 GMT -5
the difference in reading this about 1 yr ago and today is tremendous...experiencing "what is" is so real..it sort of reminds me of a time about 30/40 yrs ago when I took acid.. How so are you reminded?
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Post by etolle on Dec 16, 2018 22:33:20 GMT -5
the difference in reading this about 1 yr ago and today is tremendous...experiencing "what is" is so real..it sort of reminds me of a time about 30/40 yrs ago when I took acid.. How so are you reminded? only word I can come up with is real, more intense or alive..iow,what actually is,without interpretation from imagined self,conditioned mind,etc,is similar to doin acid..all my life (til iwas 42) I felt like somethin was wrong,unless I numbed out with alcohol and or drugs. been sober 24 yrs but things didn't start to change until I read pon and realized that the mind made self had always been who I thought I was..tolle got me started but reading other folks experience on this forum has set me free from me.lol
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Post by justlikeyou on Dec 17, 2018 7:57:08 GMT -5
only word I can come up with is real, more intense or alive..iow,what actually is,without interpretation from imagined self,conditioned mind,etc,is similar to doin acid..all my life (til iwas 42) I felt like somethin was wrong,unless I numbed out with alcohol and or drugs. been sober 24 yrs but things didn't start to change until I read pon and realized that the mind made self had always been who I thought I was..tolle got me started but reading other folks experience on this forum has set me free from me.lol OK, cool. Thanks for sharing. Glad PON was such a help to you. It served a similar role for me as well.
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Post by zendancer on Dec 17, 2018 9:07:45 GMT -5
only word I can come up with is real, more intense or alive..iow,what actually is,without interpretation from imagined self,conditioned mind,etc,is similar to doin acid..all my life (til iwas 42) I felt like somethin was wrong,unless I numbed out with alcohol and or drugs. been sober 24 yrs but things didn't start to change until I read pon and realized that the mind made self had always been who I thought I was..tolle got me started but reading other folks experience on this forum has set me free from me.lol Welcome home!
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Post by etolle on Dec 17, 2018 12:28:59 GMT -5
only word I can come up with is real, more intense or alive..iow,what actually is,without interpretation from imagined self,conditioned mind,etc,is similar to doin acid..all my life (til iwas 42) I felt like somethin was wrong,unless I numbed out with alcohol and or drugs. been sober 24 yrs but things didn't start to change until I read pon and realized that the mind made self had always been who I thought I was..tolle got me started but reading other folks experience on this forum has set me free from me.lol Welcome home! zen,yer experience as a builder/workin with yer hands kind of guy resonates cause that's what I did..painting contract,drywall,etc ..always enjoyed the work and lookin back it makes sense. that's the only time I could get away from the noise in my head and just do what I did..did you experience that?...most spiritual thing I do today is build a dog house. lol
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