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Post by laughter on Feb 9, 2018 5:53:06 GMT -5
Maybe you can't see past concepts... Personality (here) = ego/cultural self/conditioned self/inauthentic self/false sense of self. The Emperor imagined everybody saw clothes on him. Only the unspoiled innocent little boy could say the truth: Dude, you're naked. So yes, personality imagines it is something that it is not, in most people. That's not that complicated. (And you say it all the time). I assume that you equate True Self with Source. Is Source small and fragile? Source is what sees and also what imagines. It is infinite. There is nothing else here. Discover THAT, and see if it is small and fragile. There is no entity that can become unified with Source because Source is all there is. A seeker imagines progress toward unity, but there is no one who can make progress. Progress is a story created by imagination. When Source stops imagining, the truth becomes obvious. This is why the Buddha said, "In all the universe I am the only one." It's why Kabir said, "Behold, but one in all things; it is the second that leads you astray." It's why Ramana said on his deathbed in response to a follower's question about where he was going, "Where could I possibly go?" It's why Laughter is asking, "Can the Source of imaqination be imaginary?" thanks ZD
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Post by etolle on Feb 9, 2018 20:50:35 GMT -5
so you experience true self,essence,as small and fragile?
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Feb 10, 2018 12:29:20 GMT -5
so you experience true self,essence,as small and fragile? Let me make an analogy. About 20 years ago in an accident I tore my right bicep tendon off the bone. I had it repaired, put in a cast, my arm was virtually at a right angle, and my doctor told me not to move my arm or even fingers, at all (so it would heal properly). So I could not even squeeze a ball to keep my hand in shape. So my muscles atrophied. Cast came off after about two months. I was an electrician, right-handed. I could start back to work, but could barely do anything. I could barely hold my wire-cutters to staple staples. I had to cut wire with my left hand. But I got a little stronger every day. With therapy I could eventually straighten my arm. This is the meaning of being small, fragile, like my atrophied arm. When we are born we live through essence. But ego/persona/cultural self/mask/false self begins to form immediately, from information collected through the senses. From this information the ego/persona is formed. It eventually covers over our essence, so essence ceases to grow, so essence for most people, is small and fragile. This is different for different people, but for most this occurs about the age of six, this complete shift from essence to persona. So then we cease to live through our essence, we encounter life through our persona/mask/cultural self. Another "analogy", attention is held and captured by people, places, things and thoughts, feelings and actions. 100% of your attention now is centered on squiggles on a computer screen. So the computer screen has your attention. So your attention is like my arm in a cast, captured and held. As long as conditioning holds your attention, essence will be weak and fragile. Ask yourself any time you think to do so, where is my attention, now? You will almost inevitably find your attention is captured and held by some place, person, thing, thought, feeling or action, not-free. I learned these things many years ago. I learned to 'free my attention', and I learned, and am learning what essence is when it is not small and fragile. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ZD discovered something important, ATA-T (attend[ing] the actual minus thought). This frees attention from conditioning, and loosens conditioning, and in part dissolves conditioning.
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Post by zendancer on Feb 10, 2018 17:01:25 GMT -5
so you experience true self,essence,as small and fragile? Let me make an analogy. About 20 years ago in an accident I tore my right bicep tendon off the bone. I had it repaired, put in a cast, my arm was virtually at a right angle, and my doctor told me not to move my arm or even fingers, at all (so it would heal properly). So I could not even squeeze a ball to keep my hand in shape. So my muscles atrophied. Cast came off after about two months. I was an electrician, right-handed. I could start back to work, but could barely do anything. I could barely hold my wire-cutters to staple staples. I had to cut wire with my left hand. But I got a little stronger every day. With therapy I could eventually straighten my arm. This is the meaning of being small, fragile, like my atrophied arm. When we are born we live through essence. But ego/persona/cultural self/mask/false self begins to form immediately, from information collected through the senses. From this information the ego/persona is formed. It eventually covers over our essence, so essence ceases to grow, so essence for most people, is small and fragile. This is different for different people, but for most this occurs about the age of six, this complete shift from essence to persona. So then we cease to live through our essence, we encounter life through our persona/mask/cultural self. Another "analogy", attention is held and captured by people, places, things and thoughts, feelings and actions. 100% of your attention now is centered on squiggles on a computer screen. So the computer screen has your attention. So your attention is like my arm in a cast, captured and held. As long as conditioning holds your attention, essence will be weak and fragile. Ask yourself any time you think to do so, where is my attention, now? You will almost inevitably find your attention is captured and held by some place, person, thing, thought, feeling or action, not-free. I learned these things many years ago. I learned to 'free my attention', and I learned, and am learning what essence is when it is not small and fragile. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ZD discovered something important, ATA-T (attend[ing] the actual minus thought). This frees attention from conditioning, and loosens conditioning, and in part dissolves conditioning. Again, my point is that understanding "the big picture" is what ends the search. Understanding changes as a result of realizations, but there is only one thingless-thing that sees, thinks, acts, understands, or realizes anything. I'll call it "Source" rather than "True Self" because there seems to be some difference in the way that many of us use that latter phrase. Source wakes up as a baby, and sees, hears, feels, etc. As Source grows from babyhood to adulthood, it learns about the world through both its body and it's brain, makes various distinctions, and acquires beliefs, many of which are self-referential and many of which are false. Typically, Source, as an adult, believes that it is a separate thing existing in space and time and interacting with other things. If Source, as an adult, has doubts or existential questions about the nature of reality, it may start searching for some sort of truth that will make better sense than conventional ideas. As it contemplates what it wants to understand by turning attention away from thoughts to direct sensory perception, it often has realizations that change it's understanding. Here are just a few of those realizations: 1.The realization that there is a difference between "what is" and ideas about "what is" 2 The realization that there is a difference between relative meaning and absolute meaning 3. The realization that there is a difference between direct perception (gnosis) and cognitive perception (episteme) 4. The realization that time, space, and thingness are cognitive grids that exist only in imagination. 5. The realization that whatever the body/mind is doing is exactly what it must be doing (which is equally true for all other humans) 6. The realization that reality, or "what is," or Source, is a unified living intelligent aware whole 7. The realization that selfhood and the sense of separateness is an illusion As these kinds of realizations occur, understanding changes. Along the way, Source, as an adult, imagined that it could do something to become unified with Source, but after SR, Source realizes that Source is all there is, and that the real doer behind all activity is Source. Source, in the form of a human being, then understands that all past efforting, meditating, questioning, "becoming present," etc. was simply the unfolding of Source prior to Its waking up to Itself. This understanding leads to a kind of internal relaxation and acceptance of however the unfolding of Source happens to manifest. Source realizes that it's past spiritual quest to become unified with Source was a kind of goose chase because Source was Source all along, even when Source didn't know it. Source, as a sage, understands that humans are conditioned to respond to their environment in different ways that are, in most cases, logical. A sage understands that the Intelligence of Source is beyond human comprehension, so there's no need to second-guess it or question it. All that one has to do is act in accordance with the Will of Source, and that Will will spontaneously unfold moment by moment and always be totally obvious. A sage doesn't care whether there is thinking or internal silence because whatever is happening will always be a manifestation of Source's Will.
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lee
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Post by lee on Feb 10, 2018 20:48:08 GMT -5
Again, my point is that understanding "the big picture" is what ends the search. Understanding changes as a result of realizations, but there is only one thingless-thing that sees, thinks, acts, understands, or realizes anything. I'll call it "Source" rather than "True Self" because there seems to be some difference in the way that many of us use that latter phrase. Source wakes up as a baby, and sees, hears, feels, etc. As Source grows from babyhood to adulthood, it learns about the world through both its body and it's brain, makes various distinctions, and acquires beliefs, many of which are self-referential and many of which are false. Typically, Source, as an adult, believes that it is a separate thing existing in space and time and interacting with other things. If Source, as an adult, has doubts or existential questions about the nature of reality, it may start searching for some sort of truth that will make better sense than conventional ideas. As it contemplates what it wants to understand by turning attention away from thoughts to direct sensory perception, it often has realizations that change it's understanding. Here are just a few of those realizations: 1.The realization that there is a difference between "what is" and ideas about "what is" 2 The realization that there is a difference between relative meaning and absolute meaning 3. The realization that there is a difference between direct perception (gnosis) and cognitive perception (episteme) 4. The realization that time, space, and thingness are cognitive grids that exist only in imagination. 5. The realization that whatever the body/mind is doing is exactly what it must be doing (which is equally true for all other humans) 6. The realization that reality, or "what is," or Source, is a unified living intelligent aware whole 7. The realization that selfhood and the sense of separateness is an illusion As these kinds of realizations occur, understanding changes. Along the way, Source, as an adult, imagined that it could do something to become unified with Source, but after SR, Source realizes that Source is all there is, and that the real doer behind all activity is Source. Source, in the form of a human being, then understands that all past efforting, meditating, questioning, "becoming present," etc. was simply the unfolding of Source prior to Its waking up to Itself. This understanding leads to a kind of internal relaxation and acceptance of however the unfolding of Source happens to manifest. Source realizes that it's past spiritual quest to become unified with Source was a kind of goose chase because Source was Source all along, even when Source didn't know it. Source, as a sage, understands that humans are conditioned to respond to their environment in different ways that are, in most cases, logical. A sage understands that the Intelligence of Source is beyond human comprehension, so there's no need to second-guess it or question it. All that one has to do is act in accordance with the Will of Source, and that Will will spontaneously unfold moment by moment and always be totally obvious. A sage doesn't care whether there is thinking or internal silence because whatever is happening will always be a manifestation of Source's Will. Yes, everything is none other than Source. End of the day, we are always Source interacting with Source in a world of joyful and painful experiences, all of which are but a Manifestation of Source.
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Post by etolle on Feb 11, 2018 4:27:22 GMT -5
so you experience true self,essence,as small and fragile? Let me make an analogy. About 20 years ago in an accident I tore my right bicep tendon off the bone. I had it repaired, put in a cast, my arm was virtually at a right angle, and my doctor told me not to move my arm or even fingers, at all (so it would heal properly). So I could not even squeeze a ball to keep my hand in shape. So my muscles atrophied. Cast came off after about two months. I was an electrician, right-handed. I could start back to work, but could barely do anything. I could barely hold my wire-cutters to staple staples. I had to cut wire with my left hand. But I got a little stronger every day. With therapy I could eventually straighten my arm. This is the meaning of being small, fragile, like my atrophied arm. When we are born we live through essence. But ego/persona/cultural self/mask/false self begins to form immediately, from information collected through the senses. From this information the ego/persona is formed. It eventually covers over our essence, so essence ceases to grow, so essence for most people, is small and fragile. This is different for different people, but for most this occurs about the age of six, this complete shift from essence to persona. So then we cease to live through our essence, we encounter life through our persona/mask/cultural self. Another "analogy", attention is held and captured by people, places, things and thoughts, feelings and actions. 100% of your attention now is centered on squiggles on a computer screen. So the computer screen has your attention. So your attention is like my arm in a cast, captured and held. As long as conditioning holds your attention, essence will be weak and fragile. Ask yourself any time you think to do so, where is my attention, now? You will almost inevitably find your attention is captured and held by some place, person, thing, thought, feeling or action, not-free. I learned these things many years ago. I learned to 'free my attention', and I learned, and am learning what essence is when it is not small and fragile. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ZD discovered something important, ATA-T (attend[ing] the actual minus thought). This frees attention from conditioning, and loosens conditioning, and in part dissolves conditioning. thanks star..very new to all this so just wanted to compare experience. i'm n old guy and hae just recently discovered what I call true self. i'm in alcoholics anonymous and if I go in there with words like S O U R C E,theyll kick me out.lol
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Post by etolle on Feb 11, 2018 4:31:36 GMT -5
Let me make an analogy. About 20 years ago in an accident I tore my right bicep tendon off the bone. I had it repaired, put in a cast, my arm was virtually at a right angle, and my doctor told me not to move my arm or even fingers, at all (so it would heal properly). So I could not even squeeze a ball to keep my hand in shape. So my muscles atrophied. Cast came off after about two months. I was an electrician, right-handed. I could start back to work, but could barely do anything. I could barely hold my wire-cutters to staple staples. I had to cut wire with my left hand. But I got a little stronger every day. With therapy I could eventually straighten my arm. This is the meaning of being small, fragile, like my atrophied arm. When we are born we live through essence. But ego/persona/cultural self/mask/false self begins to form immediately, from information collected through the senses. From this information the ego/persona is formed. It eventually covers over our essence, so essence ceases to grow, so essence for most people, is small and fragile. This is different for different people, but for most this occurs about the age of six, this complete shift from essence to persona. So then we cease to live through our essence, we encounter life through our persona/mask/cultural self. Another "analogy", attention is held and captured by people, places, things and thoughts, feelings and actions. 100% of your attention now is centered on squiggles on a computer screen. So the computer screen has your attention. So your attention is like my arm in a cast, captured and held. As long as conditioning holds your attention, essence will be weak and fragile. Ask yourself any time you think to do so, where is my attention, now? You will almost inevitably find your attention is captured and held by some place, person, thing, thought, feeling or action, not-free. I learned these things many years ago. I learned to 'free my attention', and I learned, and am learning what essence is when it is not small and fragile. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ZD discovered something important, ATA-T (attend[ing] the actual minus thought). This frees attention from conditioning, and loosens conditioning, and in part dissolves conditioning. Again, my point is that understanding "the big picture" is what ends the search. Understanding changes as a result of realizations, but there is only one thingless-thing that sees, thinks, acts, understands, or realizes anything. I'll call it "Source" rather than "True Self" because there seems to be some difference in the way that many of us use that latter phrase. Source wakes up as a baby, and sees, hears, feels, etc. As Source grows from babyhood to adulthood, it learns about the world through both its body and it's brain, makes various distinctions, and acquires beliefs, many of which are self-referential and many of which are false. Typically, Source, as an adult, believes that it is a separate thing existing in space and time and interacting with other things. If Source, as an adult, has doubts or existential questions about the nature of reality, it may start searching for some sort of truth that will make better sense than conventional ideas. As it contemplates what it wants to understand by turning attention away from thoughts to direct sensory perception, it often has realizations that change it's understanding. Here are just a few of those realizations: 1.The realization that there is a difference between "what is" and ideas about "what is" 2 The realization that there is a difference between relative meaning and absolute meaning 3. The realization that there is a difference between direct perception (gnosis) and cognitive perception (episteme) 4. The realization that time, space, and thingness are cognitive grids that exist only in imagination. 5. The realization that whatever the body/mind is doing is exactly what it must be doing (which is equally true for all other humans) 6. The realization that reality, or "what is," or Source, is a unified living intelligent aware whole 7. The realization that selfhood and the sense of separateness is an illusion As these kinds of realizations occur, understanding changes. Along the way, Source, as an adult, imagined that it could do something to become unified with Source, but after SR, Source realizes that Source is all there is, and that the real doer behind all activity is Source. Source, in the form of a human being, then understands that all past efforting, meditating, questioning, "becoming present," etc. was simply the unfolding of Source prior to Its waking up to Itself. This understanding leads to a kind of internal relaxation and acceptance of however the unfolding of Source happens to manifest. Source realizes that it's past spiritual quest to become unified with Source was a kind of goose chase because Source was Source all along, even when Source didn't know it. Source, as a sage, understands that humans are conditioned to respond to their environment in different ways that are, in most cases, logical. A sage understands that the Intelligence of Source is beyond human comprehension, so there's no need to second-guess it or question it. All that one has to do is act in accordance with the Will of Source, and that Will will spontaneously unfold moment by moment and always be totally obvious. A sage doesn't care whether there is thinking or internal silence because whatever is happening will always be a manifestation of Source's Will. zd,thanks for that explanation,even I,uh,i mean whoever is typing this can comprehend.lol....this is so exciting there are no words.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Feb 11, 2018 10:04:25 GMT -5
Let me make an analogy. About 20 years ago in an accident I tore my right bicep tendon off the bone. I had it repaired, put in a cast, my arm was virtually at a right angle, and my doctor told me not to move my arm or even fingers, at all (so it would heal properly). So I could not even squeeze a ball to keep my hand in shape. So my muscles atrophied. Cast came off after about two months. I was an electrician, right-handed. I could start back to work, but could barely do anything. I could barely hold my wire-cutters to staple staples. I had to cut wire with my left hand. But I got a little stronger every day. With therapy I could eventually straighten my arm. This is the meaning of being small, fragile, like my atrophied arm. When we are born we live through essence. But ego/persona/cultural self/mask/false self begins to form immediately, from information collected through the senses. From this information the ego/persona is formed. It eventually covers over our essence, so essence ceases to grow, so essence for most people, is small and fragile. This is different for different people, but for most this occurs about the age of six, this complete shift from essence to persona. So then we cease to live through our essence, we encounter life through our persona/mask/cultural self. Another "analogy", attention is held and captured by people, places, things and thoughts, feelings and actions. 100% of your attention now is centered on squiggles on a computer screen. So the computer screen has your attention. So your attention is like my arm in a cast, captured and held. As long as conditioning holds your attention, essence will be weak and fragile. Ask yourself any time you think to do so, where is my attention, now? You will almost inevitably find your attention is captured and held by some place, person, thing, thought, feeling or action, not-free. I learned these things many years ago. I learned to 'free my attention', and I learned, and am learning what essence is when it is not small and fragile. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ZD discovered something important, ATA-T (attend[ing] the actual minus thought). This frees attention from conditioning, and loosens conditioning, and in part dissolves conditioning. thanks star..very new to all this so just wanted to compare experience. i'm n old guy and hae just recently discovered what I call true self. i'm in alcoholics anonymous and if I go in there with words like S O U R C E,theyll kick me out.lol I've read Bill's original healing experience, it was quite profound. Everybody here would understand it. He wanted others to be able to recreate, be healed as he was. If I recall correctly, he used the word God in the beginning, got a lot of "push back". So he shifted to the words higher power. I suppose you've read or heard about Bill's essentially "mystical" experience?
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Post by etolle on Feb 11, 2018 22:48:18 GMT -5
thanks star..very new to all this so just wanted to compare experience. i'm n old guy and hae just recently discovered what I call true self. i'm in alcoholics anonymous and if I go in there with words like S O U R C E,theyll kick me out.lol I've read Bill's original healing experience, it was quite profound. Everybody here would understand it. He wanted others to be able to recreate, be healed as he was. If I recall correctly, he used the word God in the beginning, got a lot of "push back". So he shifted to the words higher power. I suppose you've read or heard about Bill's essentially "mystical" experience? yes I have and at 1st I didn't believe it but now I don't think like that. I identified with bills story( other than that) and it helped me tremendously. i'm glad they changed some of the religious stuff or I would not have stayed. my dad was a fanatical Baptist preacher/alcoholic,at about 2 year intervals. lol..not funny when I was a kid..total fkn insanity...joined aa 23 years ago and it saved my life. good to talk to somebody who is on this path and also comprehends what aa espouses. most folks in aa think they are awakened but are closed minded beyond belief,and of course I was just like them most of my life. Eckhart tolles book THE POWER OF NOW AND A NEW EARTH turned my world around and nothin has been the same since. did you read those?......wat do you think about bill w's experience?..was all that in his head?...
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Feb 12, 2018 8:28:50 GMT -5
I've read Bill's original healing experience, it was quite profound. Everybody here would understand it. He wanted others to be able to recreate, be healed as he was. If I recall correctly, he used the word God in the beginning, got a lot of "push back". So he shifted to the words higher power. I suppose you've read or heard about Bill's essentially "mystical" experience? yes I have and at 1st I didn't believe it but now I don't think like that. I identified with bills story( other than that) and it helped me tremendously. i'm glad they changed some of the religious stuff or I would not have stayed. my dad was a fanatical Baptist preacher/alcoholic,at about 2 year intervals. lol..not funny when I was a kid..total fkn insanity...joined aa 23 years ago and it saved my life. good to talk to somebody who is on this path and also comprehends what aa espouses. most folks in aa think they are awakened but are closed minded beyond belief,and of course I was just like them most of my life. Eckhart tolles book THE POWER OF NOW AND A NEW EARTH turned my world around and nothin has been the same since. did you read those?......wat do you think about bill w's experience?..was all that in his head?... I read the Power of Now when it first came out. It's very good. I have never read A New Earth. I browsed it years ago, will probably eventually get around to reading it, don't remember much from the browsing. No, Bill's experience wasn't all in his head. He got 'outside' his head, actually. He touched something profound, "higher", "deeper". If one reads the mystics you see he had a mystical experience. But there isn't really a 'formula' for getting to-where-he-got. For him it was life changing, he wanted to share with others. A very great thing came out of it. Many different groups use the 12 steps, they are very useful, you could actually say profound. I would say Bill and Tolle touched very close territory. You might could say the 12 steps are like an outside scaffolding, Tolle's 'words', an inside scaffolding, either, or, or both needed, for some. silkworth.net/ask_billw/Q&A19.html
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Post by laughter on Feb 13, 2018 0:23:58 GMT -5
yes I have and at 1st I didn't believe it but now I don't think like that. I identified with bills story( other than that) and it helped me tremendously. i'm glad they changed some of the religious stuff or I would not have stayed. my dad was a fanatical Baptist preacher/alcoholic,at about 2 year intervals. lol..not funny when I was a kid..total fkn insanity...joined aa 23 years ago and it saved my life. good to talk to somebody who is on this path and also comprehends what aa espouses. most folks in aa think they are awakened but are closed minded beyond belief,and of course I was just like them most of my life. Eckhart tolles book THE POWER OF NOW AND A NEW EARTH turned my world around and nothin has been the same since. did you read those?......wat do you think about bill w's experience?..was all that in his head?... I read the Power of Now when it first came out. It's very good. I have never read A New Earth. I browsed it years ago, will probably eventually get around to reading it, don't remember much from the browsing. No, Bill's experience wasn't all in his head. He got 'outside' his head, actually. He touched something profound, "higher", "deeper". If one reads the mystics you see he had a mystical experience. But there isn't really a 'formula' for getting to-where-he-got. For him it was life changing, he wanted to share with others. A very great thing came out of it. Many different groups use the 12 steps, they are very useful, you could actually say profound. I would say Bill and Tolle touched very close territory. You might could say the 12 steps are like an outside scaffolding, Tolle's 'words', an inside scaffolding, either, or, or both needed, for some. Cool metaphor.
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Post by etolle on Dec 12, 2018 22:54:13 GMT -5
yes I have and at 1st I didn't believe it but now I don't think like that. I identified with bills story( other than that) and it helped me tremendously. i'm glad they changed some of the religious stuff or I would not have stayed. my dad was a fanatical Baptist preacher/alcoholic,at about 2 year intervals. lol..not funny when I was a kid..total fkn insanity...joined aa 23 years ago and it saved my life. good to talk to somebody who is on this path and also comprehends what aa espouses. most folks in aa think they are awakened but are closed minded beyond belief,and of course I was just like them most of my life. Eckhart tolles book THE POWER OF NOW AND A NEW EARTH turned my world around and nothin has been the same since. did you read those?......wat do you think about bill w's experience?..was all that in his head?... I read the Power of Now when it first came out. It's very good. I have never read A New Earth. I browsed it years ago, will probably eventually get around to reading it, don't remember much from the browsing. No, Bill's experience wasn't all in his head. He got 'outside' his head, actually. He touched something profound, "higher", "deeper". If one reads the mystics you see he had a mystical experience. But there isn't really a 'formula' for getting to-where-he-got. For him it was life changing, he wanted to share with others. A very great thing came out of it. Many different groups use the 12 steps, they are very useful, you could actually say profound. I would say Bill and Tolle touched very close territory. You might could say the 12 steps are like an outside scaffolding, Tolle's 'words', an inside scaffolding, either, or, or both needed, for some. silkworth.net/ask_billw/Q&A19.htmldo you recall bill w referencing the "painful inner dialogue"?
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Sept 8, 2019 7:06:38 GMT -5
This thread has been considered for a few days, and finally comes as a response to a post by wren, June 29, 4:42 PM, sdp seems to be a lot clearer in his view the last month or so. My reply to this post (What?) was also recently commented on by E (about an hour+ ago). So I will briefly give my view, again. Becoming more conscious is like juggling, it cannot be passive, it takes effort. You begin to learn to juggle using three objects, usually balls. With two hands, one ball has to be in the air at all times. So there is a movement of catching and throwing with an expenditure of energy. If the throwing and catching stops, the juggling stops. Becoming more conscious, similarly, requires certain effort, but conscious efforts. One cannot become more conscious, passively. Awakening requires a certain quantity of a certain quality of energy, and this energy cannot be come by, passively. The energy of awakening can be accumulated, but if conscious efforts, which concern the use of attention and awareness, cease, the energy will leak away, like the flow of the balls ceasing when one stops juggling. Now, some are going to say, but that's not how I understand awakening. So I will use the term, self-remembering, that's what self-remembering is, the state of being awake. I do this to try in a small way to circumvent the problem of language we are having with the use of the term Self Realization. The term Self Realization is obviously being defined differently by different people here. So I will use the term self-remembering for the state of being awake, not to be equated with Self Realization, which I have said before is not in my vocabulary (for various reasons). One significant difference is that self-remembering can come and go, one can be more awake or less awake, one can be more conscious or less conscious. This, again, depends upon this quantity of a certain quality of energy. So what is the role of ego/personality/cultural self/imaginary self in all this? Ego/etc. is a drain of energy. If one lives primarily through ego/etc., he or she can never accumulate the energy required for awakening, excuse me, for self-remembering. So, one has to "keep the balls in the air" via conscious efforts to such an extent that the energy entering the organism exceeds that exiting the organism, generally through the sieve that ego/personality/imaginary self, is. Working with attention saves energy, by working with awareness, one creates this finer quality of energy and likewise saves it. I realize that most of this is at odds with the view and ideas spoken to primarily here on ST's (non-volition and such). For others maybe this will give some additional perspective. Almost everything I have ever posted here on ST's relates in some manner to this information (the OP). So this is my view in a nutshell. Basically, any ordinary effort, that by ego/imaginary self, is a mechanical effort and is non-volitional. Conscious efforts, obviously and by definition, cannot occur unconsciously, that is, resulting from habit, conditioning or through ego/imaginary self. Additionally, awakening/self-remembering does not involve the repair of ego/personality/imaginary self, it involves making ego/etc. passive. Bumped, as referred to...
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Post by zendancer on Sept 8, 2019 11:02:10 GMT -5
This thread has been considered for a few days, and finally comes as a response to a post by wren, June 29, 4:42 PM, sdp seems to be a lot clearer in his view the last month or so. My reply to this post (What?) was also recently commented on by E (about an hour+ ago). So I will briefly give my view, again. Becoming more conscious is like juggling, it cannot be passive, it takes effort. You begin to learn to juggle using three objects, usually balls. With two hands, one ball has to be in the air at all times. So there is a movement of catching and throwing with an expenditure of energy. If the throwing and catching stops, the juggling stops. Becoming more conscious, similarly, requires certain effort, but conscious efforts. One cannot become more conscious, passively. Awakening requires a certain quantity of a certain quality of energy, and this energy cannot be come by, passively. The energy of awakening can be accumulated, but if conscious efforts, which concern the use of attention and awareness, cease, the energy will leak away, like the flow of the balls ceasing when one stops juggling. Now, some are going to say, but that's not how I understand awakening. So I will use the term, self-remembering, that's what self-remembering is, the state of being awake. I do this to try in a small way to circumvent the problem of language we are having with the use of the term Self Realization. The term Self Realization is obviously being defined differently by different people here. So I will use the term self-remembering for the state of being awake, not to be equated with Self Realization, which I have said before is not in my vocabulary (for various reasons). One significant difference is that self-remembering can come and go, one can be more awake or less awake, one can be more conscious or less conscious. This, again, depends upon this quantity of a certain quality of energy. So what is the role of ego/personality/cultural self/imaginary self in all this? Ego/etc. is a drain of energy. If one lives primarily through ego/etc., he or she can never accumulate the energy required for awakening, excuse me, for self-remembering. So, one has to "keep the balls in the air" via conscious efforts to such an extent that the energy entering the organism exceeds that exiting the organism, generally through the sieve that ego/personality/imaginary self, is. Working with attention saves energy, by working with awareness, one creates this finer quality of energy and likewise saves it. I realize that most of this is at odds with the view and ideas spoken to primarily here on ST's (non-volition and such). For others maybe this will give some additional perspective. Almost everything I have ever posted here on ST's relates in some manner to this information (the OP). So this is my view in a nutshell. Basically, any ordinary effort, that by ego/imaginary self, is a mechanical effort and is non-volitional. Conscious efforts, obviously and by definition, cannot occur unconsciously, that is, resulting from habit, conditioning or through ego/imaginary self. Additionally, awakening/self-remembering does not involve the repair of ego/personality/imaginary self, it involves making ego/etc. passive. Bumped, as referred to... It's okay to imagine that effort is needed, but there comes a point where it's realized that the idea of efforting has been an illusion. Not only do some people, such as Paul Morgan-Somers, fall into unity consciousness without doing anything, but other people do so through inquiry rather than meditative practices. Norio Kushi, Ramana, and many other people fall into that category. People who pursue meditative practices, and subsequently attain SR, often refer to efforting as a way of encouraging other people to become internally silent because that's what's usually correlated with realizations, and it's one way of pointing to that. Niz, for example, often told people that staying in the "I am" initially required a lot of effort, and i've told people the same sort of thing about ATA-T, but if someone asked me whether that claim is true, I'd have to admit that what was thought to be effort at the time, ceased to be thought about that way after a particular realization. Why? Because there are not two here. There is no separate entity that can make an effort to find anything; it's only imagined like that, and imagination requires dualistic thinking. If there is no "me," how can a "me" make an effort of any kind? The reason sages are equanimous is because this truth has been non-conceptually realized.
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Post by satchitananda on Sept 8, 2019 12:05:36 GMT -5
If there is no "me," how can a "me" make an effort of any kind? The reason sages are equanimous is because this truth has been non-conceptually realized. That's all very well, but in order to find out there is no me you have to start with a me. If you can juggle it is effortless and performed without thinking, and it would be legitimate to say in that moment while all the balls are in the air that I feel like I've always been able to juggle. But of course that's not true.
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