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Post by quinn on Jun 28, 2015 9:35:13 GMT -5
The one I do. You're describing your experience with ATA-T and I'm not questioning your experience at all. I do question, though, your conclusion that this roller coaster is created by ATA-T. Would you entertain an alternate conclusion?What if the roller coaster was already going on and ATA-T is just bringing it into sharper focus by showing you the contrast? And if you're willing to entertain that idea, would you also be willing to consider that anything that helps you see the mind's shenanigans more clearly is a good thing? And I don't understand your last question of yours, Can you rephrase it? What I mean is, do you think it's a good thing to be more conscious of how the mind takes you out of peace? To see clearly that no thought = peace thought returns = irritation Is ATA-T causing the irritation or are the thoughts causing it? Do certain thoughts cause irritation and some not? Which ones? This is what I mean by seeing the mind's shenanigans.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2015 9:47:28 GMT -5
Good question,but I need to ask you another question that roller coaster is always in our life,agree? Yes, Roller coaster has already been there, but as long as this roller coaster intensity is in the controlled manner, there is no suffering, but unfortunately when it increases the intensity on both sides we are inevitably entering into the suffering mode, So what would I say, When I do this ATA-T it increases the intensity of the sides of the roller coaster, so this unhappiness changes into the irritation mode. And I don't understand your last question of yours, Can you rephrase it? I agree that duality will always be our experience, change will always be our experience. I see we're coming from very different understandings when you say "as long as this roller coaster intensity is in the controlled manner, there is no suffering". To me, the roller coaster is suffering. So now words are very much in our way. Just to try and break through that a bit, can you tell me how you control the intensity of the roller coaster? Maybe I can understand what you mean better. (So to not have a mixed up post with multiple conversations in it, I'll re-state that last question separately.) Actually this is what happened in my life, I suffered, So I applied lot of technique like controlling, allowing, seeing, but at last what I had noticed was, whatever I do, mind clearly repeats that, Once I directly seen this, 'nothing can be done' was realized, So I give up all the action towards my life, So happy/unhappy roller coaster intensity decreases in such a way unhappy side of the roller coaster doesn't put me into the suffering mode, when intensity of this unhappy side increases, I would surely like to call this as suffering, when I say suffering it's obviously attached with intention to come out of that state Or try to come out of that state is inevitably attached. So roller coaster happens, unhappy movement doesn't brings me to suffer because intensity of that is very slight. But if I do this ATA-T this creates the tremendous peace soas usual any mind doesn't remain without it's opposite it attracts it's opposite irritation, when I say irritation, it would create situation which would cause the irritation.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2015 9:51:48 GMT -5
And I don't understand your last question of yours, Can you rephrase it? What I mean is, do you think it's a good thing to be more conscious of how the mind takes you out of peace? To see clearly that no thought = peace thought returns = irritation Is ATA-T causing the irritation or are the thoughts causing it? Do certain thoughts cause irritation and some not? Which ones? This is what I mean by seeing the mind's shenanigans. Whether a particular state is irritation or happy or sad can't be determined by you, situation automatically determines, Doing ATA-T creates the peace so result of that consciousness creates another situation which causes you to get irritated.
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Post by quinn on Jun 28, 2015 10:05:06 GMT -5
I agree that duality will always be our experience, change will always be our experience. I see we're coming from very different understandings when you say "as long as this roller coaster intensity is in the controlled manner, there is no suffering". To me, the roller coaster is suffering. So now words are very much in our way. Just to try and break through that a bit, can you tell me how you control the intensity of the roller coaster? Maybe I can understand what you mean better. (So to not have a mixed up post with multiple conversations in it, I'll re-state that last question separately.) Actually this is what happened in my life, I suffered, So I applied lot of technique like controlling, allowing, seeing, but at last what I had noticed was, whatever I do, mind clearly repeats that, Once I directly seen this, 'nothing can be done' was realized, So I give up all the action towards my life, So happy/unhappy roller coaster intensity decreases in such a way unhappy side of the roller coaster doesn't put me into the suffering mode, when intensity of this unhappy side increases, I would surely like to call this as suffering, when I say suffering it's obviously attached with intention to come out of that state Or try to come out of that state is inevitably attached. So roller coaster happens, unhappy movement doesn't brings me to suffer because intensity of that is very slight. But if I do this ATA-T this creates the tremendous peace soas usual any mind doesn't remain without it's opposite it attracts it's opposite irritation, when I say irritation, it would create situation which would cause the irritation. Oh, I see! Thank you, that was very clear. So you already see the shenanigans of the mind! And you also see that you can't control the ups and downs by applying techniques. Yes - I've seen that too. I don't see ATA-T as a technique. I see it as exactly what happens when you see what you've seen (the mind's shenanigans, I can't control ups and downs). You give it a rest. You stop. You let all that go and just deal with life directly. When mind rises up and says "the peace of ATA-T attracts it's opposite", you pay it no mind (lol). Peace arises...ok. Irritation arises...ok. Let mind do its thing while I drive this car or feel the grass under my feet or whatever I'm attending to. Not a technique. A way of being after we see that all else fails. A way of being that we had forgotten, so maybe we have to practice it a bit to remember.
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Post by quinn on Jun 28, 2015 10:14:29 GMT -5
What I mean is, do you think it's a good thing to be more conscious of how the mind takes you out of peace? To see clearly that no thought = peace thought returns = irritation Is ATA-T causing the irritation or are the thoughts causing it? Do certain thoughts cause irritation and some not? Which ones? This is what I mean by seeing the mind's shenanigans. Whether a particular state is irritation or happy or sad can't be determined by you, situation automatically determines, Doing ATA-T creates the peace so result of that consciousness creates another situation which causes you to get irritated. Oh, I see just the opposite. Irritation, sad, happy is the result of what's going on internally, not a result of the situation. Haven't you ever been in a situation where something happens and you react one way but the person next to you reacts totally different? Yes, the situation triggers the reaction, but the contents of that reaction are totally internal (contents being sad, happy, irritated, etc.).
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2015 10:54:27 GMT -5
Whether a particular state is irritation or happy or sad can't be determined by you, situation automatically determines, Doing ATA-T creates the peace so result of that consciousness creates another situation which causes you to get irritated. Oh, I see just the opposite. Irritation, sad, happy is the result of what's going on internally, not a result of the situation. Haven't you ever been in a situation where something happens and you react one way but the person next to you reacts totally different? Yes, the situation triggers the reaction, but the contents of that reaction are totally internal (contents being sad, happy, irritated, etc.). Your situation is not separated from the creation, other person reaction is not separated from what's happening there,Yes everything is internal, but what happens outside is also the creation of the same consciousness. You are trying to separate the things. When irritation happens due to another person's action towards you, this another person is completely not responsible for what he is doing, this whole situation completely arises from inner, that's what I said you don't have absolutely no control over there. Situation would clearly define your state of being(irritation,happy,unhappy,sad,laughing,boring)
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2015 10:59:52 GMT -5
Actually this is what happened in my life, I suffered, So I applied lot of technique like controlling, allowing, seeing, but at last what I had noticed was, whatever I do, mind clearly repeats that, Once I directly seen this, 'nothing can be done' was realized, So I give up all the action towards my life, So happy/unhappy roller coaster intensity decreases in such a way unhappy side of the roller coaster doesn't put me into the suffering mode, when intensity of this unhappy side increases, I would surely like to call this as suffering, when I say suffering it's obviously attached with intention to come out of that state Or try to come out of that state is inevitably attached. So roller coaster happens, unhappy movement doesn't brings me to suffer because intensity of that is very slight. But if I do this ATA-T this creates the tremendous peace soas usual any mind doesn't remain without it's opposite it attracts it's opposite irritation, when I say irritation, it would create situation which would cause the irritation. Oh, I see! Thank you, that was very clear. So you already see the shenanigans of the mind! And you also see that you can't control the ups and downs by applying techniques. Yes - I've seen that too. I don't see ATA-T as a technique. I see it as exactly what happens when you see what you've seen (the mind's shenanigans, I can't control ups and downs). You give it a rest. You stop. You let all that go and just deal with life directly. When mind rises up and says "the peace of ATA-T attracts it's opposite", you pay it no mind (lol). Peace arises...ok. Irritation arises...ok. Let mind do its thing while I drive this car or feel the grass under my feet or whatever I'm attending to. Not a technique. A way of being after we see that all else fails. A way of being that we had forgotten, so maybe we have to practice it a bit to remember. What are you talking about here? When it creates the opposite, aren't you sure that it's not leading anywhere other than it's own creation? It would never lead you anywhere because it's has it's own creation to continue.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jun 28, 2015 11:12:32 GMT -5
What I mean is, do you think it's a good thing to be more conscious of how the mind takes you out of peace? To see clearly that no thought = peace thought returns = irritation Is ATA-T causing the irritation or are the thoughts causing it? Do certain thoughts cause irritation and some not? Which ones? This is what I mean by seeing the mind's shenanigans. Whether a particular state is irritation or happy or sad can't be determined by you, situation automatically determines, Doing ATA-T creates the peace so result of that consciousness creates another situation which causes you to get irritated. The bold, absolutely not true. True, we can't control what happens, the ups and downs of the rollercoaster, but happy or sad can be determined by the "mind/body". In my tradition there is the symbol/image of the pendulum. The pendulum swings up high to one side, the good/happiness side of life, and we get lost in the happiness, everything is roses, roses, we feel a slight movement the other way, but suddenly we are at the other end of the pendulum swing, and are in the unhappiness/bad side of life, and everything is thorns, thorns. We don't see that there is one pendulum, we don't see that the two arcs are connected. But it is possible to remain conscious throughout the swing, to see that it's one pendulum. It's possible to "create" a "space" where one is not identified with either the "happy" side of the swing or the "sad" side of the swing, this is the place of ATA-T. The "bad" swing cannot make one unhappy, the good swing cannot bring forgetfulness of the bad times, you see the whole. So, indirectly, happy or sad can be determined. In Taoism this is called the still point. There is a fixed point of a wheel, the axle, about which the wheel turns. This is also like the eye of a hurricane, quiet, still, no wind. But we usually get lost in the yin and yang, and suffer or get irritated.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jun 28, 2015 11:13:39 GMT -5
Whether a particular state is irritation or happy or sad can't be determined by you, situation automatically determines, Doing ATA-T creates the peace so result of that consciousness creates another situation which causes you to get irritated. Oh, I see just the opposite. Irritation, sad, happy is the result of what's going on internally, not a result of the situation.Haven't you ever been in a situation where something happens and you react one way but the person next to you reacts totally different? Yes, the situation triggers the reaction, but the contents of that reaction are totally internal (contents being sad, happy, irritated, etc.). Bingo.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2015 11:15:16 GMT -5
Whether a particular state is irritation or happy or sad can't be determined by you, situation automatically determines, Doing ATA-T creates the peace so result of that consciousness creates another situation which causes you to get irritated. The bold, absolutely not true. True, we can't control what happens, the ups and downs of the rollercoaster, but happy or sad can be determined by the "mind/body". In my tradition there is the symbol/image of the pendulum. The pendulum swings up high to one side, the good/happiness side of life, and we get lost in the happiness, everything is roses, roses, we feel a slight movement the other way, but suddenly we are at the other end of the pendulum swing, and are in the unhappiness/bad side of life, and everything is thorns, thorns. We don't see that there is one pendulum, we don't see that the two arcs are connected. But it is possible to remain conscious throughout the swing, to see that it's one pendulum. It's possible to "create" a "space" where one is not identified with either the "happy" side of the swing or the "sad" side of the swing, this is the place of ATA-T. The "bad" swing cannot make one unhappy, the good swing cannot bring forgetfulness of the bad times, you see the whole. So, indirectly, happy or sad can be determined. In Taoism this is called the still point. There is a fixed point of a wheel, the axle, about which the wheel turns. This is also like the eye of a hurricane, quiet, still, no wind. But we usually get lost in the yin and yang, and suffer or get irritated. Situation unfolds from the infinite and it absolutely decides how you feel, you don't have any other way, once you realize this, infinite starts to create in a new way where you don't find situation which irritates you.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jun 28, 2015 11:15:39 GMT -5
Oh, I see just the opposite. Irritation, sad, happy is the result of what's going on internally, not a result of the situation. Haven't you ever been in a situation where something happens and you react one way but the person next to you reacts totally different? Yes, the situation triggers the reaction, but the contents of that reaction are totally internal (contents being sad, happy, irritated, etc.). Your situation is not separated from the creation, other person reaction is not separated from what's happening there,Yes everything is internal, but what happens outside is also the creation of the same consciousness. You are trying to separate the things. When irritation happens due to another person's action towards you, this another person is completely not responsible for what he is doing, this whole situation completely arises from inner, that's what I said you don't have absolutely no control over there. Situation would clearly define your state of being(irritation,happy,unhappy,sad,laughing,boring) Again, wrong.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2015 11:17:03 GMT -5
Your situation is not separated from the creation, other person reaction is not separated from what's happening there,Yes everything is internal, but what happens outside is also the creation of the same consciousness. You are trying to separate the things. When irritation happens due to another person's action towards you, this another person is completely not responsible for what he is doing, this whole situation completely arises from inner, that's what I said you don't have absolutely no control over there. Situation would clearly define your state of being(irritation,happy,unhappy,sad,laughing,boring) Again, wrong. I am having the certainty in this place and it's absolutely not what I assume as I am doing in many areas. Infinite unfolds in such a way that would exactly define what you feel.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jun 28, 2015 11:17:00 GMT -5
The bold, absolutely not true. True, we can't control what happens, the ups and downs of the rollercoaster, but happy or sad can be determined by the "mind/body". In my tradition there is the symbol/image of the pendulum. The pendulum swings up high to one side, the good/happiness side of life, and we get lost in the happiness, everything is roses, roses, we feel a slight movement the other way, but suddenly we are at the other end of the pendulum swing, and are in the unhappiness/bad side of life, and everything is thorns, thorns. We don't see that there is one pendulum, we don't see that the two arcs are connected. But it is possible to remain conscious throughout the swing, to see that it's one pendulum. It's possible to "create" a "space" where one is not identified with either the "happy" side of the swing or the "sad" side of the swing, this is the place of ATA-T. The "bad" swing cannot make one unhappy, the good swing cannot bring forgetfulness of the bad times, you see the whole. So, indirectly, happy or sad can be determined. In Taoism this is called the still point. There is a fixed point of a wheel, the axle, about which the wheel turns. This is also like the eye of a hurricane, quiet, still, no wind. But we usually get lost in the yin and yang, and suffer or get irritated. Situation unfolds from the infinite and it absolutely decides how you feel, you don't have any other way, once you realize this, infinite starts to create in a new way where you don't find situation which irritates you. Again, wrong. We finally find a chink in gopal's armor.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2015 11:19:32 GMT -5
Situation unfolds from the infinite and it absolutely decides how you feel, you don't have any other way, once you realize this, infinite starts to create in a new way where you don't find situation which irritates you. Again, wrong. We finally find a chink in gopal's armor. Infinite unfolds clearly according to your belief system, for an example, when you think you can do something to eradicate something from your experience, it would create the experience in such a way that it would push you to apply your technique, when you find the truth that none of the technique could succeed to eradicate, then infinite re-orchestrate the situation where you don't need to use your technique.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jun 28, 2015 11:24:57 GMT -5
I am having the certainty in this place and it's absolutely not what I assume as I am doing in many areas. Infinite unfolds in such a way that would exactly define what you feel. Maybe you can take a closer look at this? Things have happened to me, say within the last year, that would have made me raging angry, say ten years ago. Maybe gopal has changed, and not necessarily the events of life?
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