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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2015 8:47:57 GMT -5
And also I don't completely understand what does his bolder means? I am the strong believer of predetermination, Are you too? You meant to say something about predetermination in the above bolder line?No. Predetermination would be totally irrelevant to what I'm talking about. What I mean about permeate is that what happens is no longer seen to be directed by you. I'm not making any inferences about who or what is directing or what time that directing was decided on. I don't know any of that directly. But the direction happens? So something else is directing us,Isn't it?
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Post by tzujanli on Jun 28, 2015 8:53:43 GMT -5
No. Predetermination would be totally irrelevant to what I'm talking about. What I mean about permeate is that what happens is no longer seen to be directed by you. I'm not making any inferences about who or what is directing or what time that directing was decided on. I don't know any of that directly. But the direction happens? So something else is directing us,Isn't it? 'Direction' is determined by the choices made by the experiencer..
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Post by quinn on Jun 28, 2015 8:53:54 GMT -5
Is there truly "resting" in the ATA-T you're talking about? Surrender might be another word. Is there a true surrendering of all ideas about the 'actual'? If so, then we're talking about the same thing. It seems like you're saying the practice of ATA-T creates the reappearance of ideas about the actual (the roller coaster). How do you conclude that? Ok let me explain my point clear here why I don't prefer to do ATA-T, If I do ATA-T(Looking into the outer world perception(no thought allowed)) then it creates the peace while I am doing this ATA-T, soon it would attract it's opposite irritation so it would strongly push us to give up the idea of ATA-T and once we give up, sooner or later again it starts to suggest us to do this ATA-T So this roller coaster never stops so it would re-create the roller coaster rather than creating the intended result, are you getting me now? And Now you need to tell me what kind of ATA-T doesn't create this roller coaster?The one I do. You're describing your experience with ATA-T and I'm not questioning your experience at all. I do question, though, your conclusion that this roller coaster is created by ATA-T. Would you entertain an alternate conclusion? What if the roller coaster was already going on and ATA-T is just bringing it into sharper focus by showing you the contrast? And if you're willing to entertain that idea, would you also be willing to consider that anything that helps you see the mind's shenanigans more clearly is a good thing?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2015 8:54:58 GMT -5
But the direction happens? So something else is directing us,Isn't it? 'Direction' is determined by the choices made by the experiencer.. NO freewill, freewill is illusion.
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Post by quinn on Jun 28, 2015 8:55:39 GMT -5
No. Predetermination would be totally irrelevant to what I'm talking about. What I mean about permeate is that what happens is no longer seen to be directed by you. I'm not making any inferences about who or what is directing or what time that directing was decided on. I don't know any of that directly. But the direction happens? So something else is directing us,Isn't it? Haven't got a clue.
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Post by tzujanli on Jun 28, 2015 8:58:25 GMT -5
'Direction' is determined by the choices made by the experiencer.. NO freewill, freewill is illusion. Cool, good luck with that belief..
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2015 8:59:45 GMT -5
Ok let me explain my point clear here why I don't prefer to do ATA-T, If I do ATA-T(Looking into the outer world perception(no thought allowed)) then it creates the peace while I am doing this ATA-T, soon it would attract it's opposite irritation so it would strongly push us to give up the idea of ATA-T and once we give up, sooner or later again it starts to suggest us to do this ATA-T So this roller coaster never stops so it would re-create the roller coaster rather than creating the intended result, are you getting me now? And Now you need to tell me what kind of ATA-T doesn't create this roller coaster?The one I do. You're describing your experience with ATA-T and I'm not questioning your experience at all. I do question, though, your conclusion that this roller coaster is created by ATA-T. Would you entertain an alternate conclusion?What if the roller coaster was already going on and ATA-T is just bringing it into sharper focus by showing you the contrast? And if you're willing to entertain that idea, would you also be willing to consider that anything that helps you see the mind's shenanigans more clearly is a good thing? Good question,but I need to ask you another question that roller coaster is always in our life,agree? Yes, Roller coaster has already been there, but as long as this roller coaster intensity is in the controlled manner, there is no suffering, but unfortunately when it increases the intensity on both sides we are inevitably entering into the suffering mode, So what would I say, When I do this ATA-T it increases the intensity of the sides of the roller coaster, so this unhappiness changes into the irritation mode. And I don't understand your last question of yours, Can you rephrase it?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2015 9:00:16 GMT -5
NO freewill, freewill is illusion. Cool, good luck with that belief.. Thank you very much.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2015 9:01:09 GMT -5
But the direction happens? So something else is directing us,Isn't it? Haven't got a clue. You said 'I'm not making any inferences about who or what is directing or what time that directing was decided on. I don't know any of that directly. ' What do you mean directing and done by whom?
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Post by zendancer on Jun 28, 2015 9:05:58 GMT -5
The one I do. You're describing your experience with ATA-T and I'm not questioning your experience at all. I do question, though, your conclusion that this roller coaster is created by ATA-T. Would you entertain an alternate conclusion?What if the roller coaster was already going on and ATA-T is just bringing it into sharper focus by showing you the contrast? And if you're willing to entertain that idea, would you also be willing to consider that anything that helps you see the mind's shenanigans more clearly is a good thing? Good question,but I need to ask you another question that roller coaster is always in our life,agree? Yes, Roller coaster has already been there, but as long as this roller coaster intensity is in the controlled manner, there is no suffering, but unfortunately when it increases the intensity on both sides we are inevitably entering into the suffering mode, So what would I say, When I do this ATA-T it increases the intensity of the sides of the roller coaster, so this unhappiness changes into the irritation mode. And I don't understand your last question of yours, Can you rephrase it? The roller coaster is a product of self-referential thought. Who is riding the roller coaster? Penetrate the illusion of self-referentiality, and the roller coaster ceases to exist along with the imaginary rider.
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Post by zendancer on Jun 28, 2015 9:09:26 GMT -5
One other hint: "outer" and "inner" are also thoughts ABOUT what's going on. What happens when thoughts about outer and inner totally cease? What remains?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2015 9:10:00 GMT -5
Good question,but I need to ask you another question that roller coaster is always in our life,agree? Yes, Roller coaster has already been there, but as long as this roller coaster intensity is in the controlled manner, there is no suffering, but unfortunately when it increases the intensity on both sides we are inevitably entering into the suffering mode, So what would I say, When I do this ATA-T it increases the intensity of the sides of the roller coaster, so this unhappiness changes into the irritation mode. And I don't understand your last question of yours, Can you rephrase it? The roller coaster is a product of self-referential thought. Who is riding the roller coaster? Penetrate the illusion of self-referentiality, and the roller coaster ceases to exist along with the imaginary rider. How could you say this is self-referential thought? I am not the one who is riding this roller coaster, roller coaster happens automatically, I am pretty sure I am not the one who is directing my life.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2015 9:11:37 GMT -5
One other hint: "outer" and "inner" are also thoughts ABOUT what's going on. What happens when thoughts about outer and inner totally cease? What remains? I don't understand the motto behind this question, Can you please connect back to what I am asking ?
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Post by tzujanli on Jun 28, 2015 9:25:44 GMT -5
One other hint: "outer" and "inner" are also thoughts ABOUT what's going on. What happens when thoughts about outer and inner totally cease? What remains? An experiencer experiencing clarity.. which is known by comparison to experiencers who are not experiencing clarity..
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Post by quinn on Jun 28, 2015 9:26:05 GMT -5
The one I do. You're describing your experience with ATA-T and I'm not questioning your experience at all. I do question, though, your conclusion that this roller coaster is created by ATA-T. Would you entertain an alternate conclusion?What if the roller coaster was already going on and ATA-T is just bringing it into sharper focus by showing you the contrast? And if you're willing to entertain that idea, would you also be willing to consider that anything that helps you see the mind's shenanigans more clearly is a good thing? Good question,but I need to ask you another question that roller coaster is always in our life,agree? Yes, Roller coaster has already been there, but as long as this roller coaster intensity is in the controlled manner, there is no suffering, but unfortunately when it increases the intensity on both sides we are inevitably entering into the suffering mode, So what would I say, When I do this ATA-T it increases the intensity of the sides of the roller coaster, so this unhappiness changes into the irritation mode. And I don't understand your last question of yours, Can you rephrase it? I agree that duality will always be our experience, change will always be our experience. I see we're coming from very different understandings when you say "as long as this roller coaster intensity is in the controlled manner, there is no suffering". To me, the roller coaster is suffering. So now words are very much in our way. Just to try and break through that a bit, can you tell me how you control the intensity of the roller coaster? Maybe I can understand what you mean better. (So to not have a mixed up post with multiple conversations in it, I'll re-state that last question separately.)
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