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Post by zin on Jun 28, 2015 7:59:06 GMT -5
No la-la land wandering? No, if you go to La-La land, no longer in ATA-T :-) .........(although, there is a subtle exception, but best not go there, best not discuss that......). Keep keeping the secrets!
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2015 7:59:19 GMT -5
ATA-T is not a problem that's just an action, but the peace which has been created by ATA-T can't stand without it's opposite. ATA-T is also one of the mind created fun, Consciousness clearly knows where to break this state. Could you explain more what you mean by the bold? :-) (Also, what I just posted might clarify more what ATA-T is). While Consciousness being the original creator, it could create anything it want, but it is suggesting to itself to do some action to achieve something, It never achieves something this way, it would successfully create this creating technique again and again, but it never reach to the intended result.
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Post by zendancer on Jun 28, 2015 8:01:47 GMT -5
Correct, people who start meditating imagine that they are volitional persons who are meditating for some reason--to reduce stress, improve health, find answers to existential questions, function more optimally, attain enlightenment, etc. As the intellect becomes silent, and attention focuses upon isness rather than thoughts, any of these things can happen. Scientists know that meditation triggers what is called "the relaxation response," so the practice relaxes the body, lowers blood pressure, changes galvanic skin response, and has many other beneficial somatic effects. This is well known and well documented. What is only now being discovered by scientists is that meditation changes the brain and its operation in other less-obvious ways. The brain has plasticity, and how it is used affects it structurally. As people meditate, certain parts of the brain grow larger and other parts smaller, and neural pathways are also altered. Many of us suspect that silent attentiveness, alone, is capable of collapsing thought structures--even thought structures that we are unaware of. Inquiry and existential questioning seems to play a role in these collapses, but internal silence, alone, may be sufficient. The bottom line? People begin meditating under the assumption that they are volitional persons, and sometimes the thought structure that supports that sense of personal doership can collapse and reveal that the only do-er is the Infinite and that no separate person ever existed. Some people who attain SR state their understanding as, "All there is is consciousness," and "What I am is consciousness." Some people who attain SR state their understanding as, "There is only the Infinite," and "I am THAT." Both groups of people are pointing to the same thing. The latter group of people use the word "THAT" to include both the physical world and the non-physical world, but they don't put any particular emphasis upon either physicality or non-physicality. Both groups of people see and interact with a reality that is fundamentally undivided by the intellect. It is not necessary to meditate to be Aware, but it is priceless to rest in the Awareness that is apparently a meditator. -@zenshredding
Definitely!
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jun 28, 2015 8:11:39 GMT -5
No, if you go to La-La land, no longer in ATA-T :-) .........(although, there is a subtle exception, but best not go there, best not discuss that......). Keep keeping the secrets! No, it's not a secret if nobody wants to know.
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Post by zin on Jun 28, 2015 8:12:09 GMT -5
ATA-T is not a problem that's just an action, but the peace which has been created by ATA-T can't stand without it's opposite. ATA-T is also one of the mind created fun, Consciousness clearly knows where to break this state. Coming from quite a few years of Vipassana practice (which could be called ATA+T), I think there's a time for each. What ATA+T can do is change our relationship with thought. Jumping into ATA-T without truly seeing that relationship could result in the roller coaster you're talking about. Depends on the mindscape of the practicer, though. ATA-T (the way I understand it - ZD can correct me if I'm wrong) is the same as resting in awareness except with the eyes open and body moving. As that 'resting place' is actually the unencumbered truth of this moment, it's a coming home. There's an alignment going on that takes on a 'life' of its own and starts to permeate the roller coaster.Hi quinn, I have little to say on these, and it is, almost whenever I heard ATA-A here (on st) it was together with expressions like "the cosmos is a unified whole", so the two became inseparable for me. If you ask "the two what?" I won't answer "the two ideas", I just don't know how to say well, but "taking on a life of its own" is familiar to me.
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Post by quinn on Jun 28, 2015 8:17:30 GMT -5
Coming from quite a few years of Vipassana practice (which could be called ATA+T), I think there's a time for each. What ATA+T can do is change our relationship with thought. Jumping into ATA-T without truly seeing that relationship could result in the roller coaster you're talking about. Depends on the mindscape of the practicer, though. ATA-T (the way I understand it - ZD can correct me if I'm wrong) is the same as resting in awareness except with the eyes open and body moving. As that 'resting place' is actually the unencumbered truth of this moment, it's a coming home. There's an alignment going on that takes on a 'life' of its own and starts to permeate the roller coaster.Hi quinn, I have little to say on these, and it is, almost whenever I heard ATA-A here (on st) it was together with expressions like "the cosmos is a unified whole", so the two became inseparable for me. If you ask "the two what?" I won't answer "the two ideas", I just don't know how to say well, but "taking on a life of its own" is familiar to me. Yeah, there's so little vocabulary for this (at least in English), we have to resort to metaphor! In what way is "taking on a life of its own" familiar to you?
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Post by zin on Jun 28, 2015 8:21:00 GMT -5
Hi quinn, I have little to say on these, and it is, almost whenever I heard ATA-A here (on st) it was together with expressions like "the cosmos is a unified whole", so the two became inseparable for me. If you ask "the two what?" I won't answer "the two ideas", I just don't know how to say well, but "taking on a life of its own" is familiar to me. Yeah, there's so little vocabulary for this (at least in English), we have to resort to metaphor! In what way is "taking on a life of its own" familiar to you? I can say: a life taking me in.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2015 8:21:58 GMT -5
ATA-T is not a problem that's just an action, but the peace which has been created by ATA-T can't stand without it's opposite. ATA-T is also one of the mind created fun, Consciousness clearly knows where to break this state. Coming from quite a few years of Vipassana practice (which could be called ATA+T), I think there's a time for each. What ATA+T can do is change our relationship with thought. Jumping into ATA-T without truly seeing that relationship could result in the roller coaster you're talking about. Depends on the mindscape of the practicer, though. ATA-T (the way I understand it - ZD can correct me if I'm wrong) is the same as resting in awareness except with the eyes open and body moving. As that 'resting place' is actually the unencumbered truth of this moment, it's a coming home. There's an alignment going on that takes on a 'life' of its own and starts to permeate the roller coaster. Hi I completely don't understand what you are talking about in your second paragraph, Yes you are right about my idea on my first paragraph, Doing ATA-T would surely put us in a roller coaster, How about "resting in awareness except with the eyes open and body moving." differ from the one which I am talking about?
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Post by quinn on Jun 28, 2015 8:24:13 GMT -5
Yeah, there's so little vocabulary for this (at least in English), we have to resort to metaphor! In what way is "taking on a life of its own" familiar to you? I can say: a life taking me in. Ahhh... ***big relaxing sigh ***
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Post by zin on Jun 28, 2015 8:25:00 GMT -5
I can say: a life taking me in. Ahhh... ***big relaxing sigh ***
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2015 8:28:03 GMT -5
Actually I got your core point very clearly, you mean to say here to everyone that this person who named 'Gopal' or 'Laughter' is not the doer, but we are all moved by a single doer, we are not acting separately. This is what you mean to say clearly, I understood you and I have the huge agreement with you here. But the part where you seem to talk about the doer and perceiver are one is what confuses me, because I am simply experiences the thought rather than creating the one, So it's clear that I am not the creator but perceiver, but you say they both are one, How come? Isn't it clear that none of your thoughts are not created by you? Good question, but if "you" realize that "you" are YOU, this issue instantly dissolves. The REAL YOU is the do-er of everything; IT is the thinker, the thought, the perceiver of thought, etc. Thoughts appear in what YOU ARE because what YOU ARE is the entire process we call "reality." Reality is intelligent, creative, unified, and infinite. IT does whatever IT does, and you are THAT. It grows body/minds, and It thinks about Itself, but It can't know Itself through thinking. It can know what It is not, and it can realize what It IS by the disappearance of what It is not. Ok, thanks, but my question is, When I am not the doer of my thoughts and while I am being the experiencer of those thoughts, Isn't it clear that my inner level of consciousness creates these thoughts? How could I be the creator when I am an experiencer?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2015 8:30:09 GMT -5
ATA-T is not a problem that's just an action, but the peace which has been created by ATA-T can't stand without it's opposite. ATA-T is also one of the mind created fun, Consciousness clearly knows where to break this state. Coming from quite a few years of Vipassana practice (which could be called ATA+T), I think there's a time for each. What ATA+T can do is change our relationship with thought. Jumping into ATA-T without truly seeing that relationship could result in the roller coaster you're talking about. Depends on the mindscape of the practicer, though. ATA-T (the way I understand it - ZD can correct me if I'm wrong) is the same as resting in awareness except with the eyes open and body moving. As that 'resting place' is actually the unencumbered truth of this moment, it's a coming home. There's an alignment going on that takes on a 'life' of its own and starts to permeate the roller coaster.And also I don't completely understand what does his bolder means? I am the strong believer of predetermination, Are you too? You meant to say something about predetermination in the above bolder line?
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Post by quinn on Jun 28, 2015 8:34:48 GMT -5
Coming from quite a few years of Vipassana practice (which could be called ATA+T), I think there's a time for each. What ATA+T can do is change our relationship with thought. Jumping into ATA-T without truly seeing that relationship could result in the roller coaster you're talking about. Depends on the mindscape of the practicer, though. ATA-T (the way I understand it - ZD can correct me if I'm wrong) is the same as resting in awareness except with the eyes open and body moving. As that 'resting place' is actually the unencumbered truth of this moment, it's a coming home. There's an alignment going on that takes on a 'life' of its own and starts to permeate the roller coaster. Hi I am completely don't understand what you are talking about in your second paragraph, Yes you are right about my idea on my first paragraph, Doing ATA-T would surely put us in a roller coaster, How about "resting in awareness except with the eyes open and body moving." differ from the one which I am talking about? Is there truly "resting" in the ATA-T you're talking about? Surrender might be another word. Is there a true surrendering of all ideas about the 'actual'? If so, then we're talking about the same thing. It seems like you're saying the practice of ATA-T creates the reappearance of ideas about the actual (the roller coaster). How do you conclude that?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2015 8:42:15 GMT -5
Hi I am completely don't understand what you are talking about in your second paragraph, Yes you are right about my idea on my first paragraph, Doing ATA-T would surely put us in a roller coaster, How about "resting in awareness except with the eyes open and body moving." differ from the one which I am talking about? Is there truly "resting" in the ATA-T you're talking about? Surrender might be another word. Is there a true surrendering of all ideas about the 'actual'? If so, then we're talking about the same thing. It seems like you're saying the practice of ATA-T creates the reappearance of ideas about the actual (the roller coaster). How do you conclude that? Ok let me explain my point clear here why I don't prefer to do ATA-T, If I do ATA-T(Looking into the outer world perception(no thought allowed)) then it creates the peace while I am doing this ATA-T, soon it would attract it's opposite irritation so it would strongly push us to give up the idea of ATA-T and once we give up, sooner or later again it starts to suggest us to do this ATA-T So this roller coaster never stops so it would re-create the roller coaster rather than creating the intended result, are you getting me now? And Now you need to tell me what kind of ATA-T doesn't create this roller coaster?
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Post by quinn on Jun 28, 2015 8:44:40 GMT -5
Coming from quite a few years of Vipassana practice (which could be called ATA+T), I think there's a time for each. What ATA+T can do is change our relationship with thought. Jumping into ATA-T without truly seeing that relationship could result in the roller coaster you're talking about. Depends on the mindscape of the practicer, though. ATA-T (the way I understand it - ZD can correct me if I'm wrong) is the same as resting in awareness except with the eyes open and body moving. As that 'resting place' is actually the unencumbered truth of this moment, it's a coming home. There's an alignment going on that takes on a 'life' of its own and starts to permeate the roller coaster.And also I don't completely understand what does his bolder means? I am the strong believer of predetermination, Are you too? You meant to say something about predetermination in the above bolder line?No. Predetermination would be totally irrelevant to what I'm talking about. What I mean about permeate is that what happens is no longer seen to be directed by you. I'm not making any inferences about who or what is directing or what time that directing was decided on. I don't know any of that directly.
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