jazz
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Desire
Jun 21, 2015 16:28:57 GMT -5
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Post by jazz on Jun 21, 2015 16:28:57 GMT -5
What's your relationship to desire? Do you have a relationship to desire? Seems to me that ego is invested in keeping it "unconscious" more or less. If there is revelation of all desire, it could mean the death of it and that's obviously not, well, desirable... It's been heard renounce all desire, which makes sense in a certain light, but then again we're not interested in being desireless, are we? So now there's the movement to become more conscious of desire, expectation etc, and that feels a little threathening. Which desires are genuine and which aren't? I don't expect you to give me an answer, just thought I'd throw the ball out there
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Desire
Jun 21, 2015 16:35:27 GMT -5
Post by AlphaA on Jun 21, 2015 16:35:27 GMT -5
What's your relationship to desire? Do you have a relationship to desire? Seems to me that ego is invested in keeping it "unconscious" more or less. If there is revelation of all desire, it could mean the death of it and that's obviously not, well, desirable... It's been heard renounce all desire, which makes sense in a certain light, but then again we're not interested in being desireless, are we? So now there's the movement to become more conscious of desire, expectation etc, and that feels a little threathening. Which desires are genuine and which aren't? I don't expect you to give me an answer, just thought I'd throw the ball out there I've come to understand desire as simply art...I use the term art because, desire is a function of mind. So essentially the way we defined it's function is not particularly it's intentions. We define it by how we experience it, but desire is part of a totality of mechanism...you see how I've come to see it that way?!...you said, "Seems to me that ego is invested in keeping it "unconscious" more or less. I am on your side 100% on that one. lol
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Desire
Jun 21, 2015 16:53:02 GMT -5
Post by laughter on Jun 21, 2015 16:53:02 GMT -5
What's your relationship to desire? Do you have a relationship to desire? Seems to me that ego is invested in keeping it "unconscious" more or less. If there is revelation of all desire, it could mean the death of it and that's obviously not, well, desirable... It's been heard renounce all desire, which makes sense in a certain light, but then again we're not interested in being desireless, are we? So now there's the movement to become more conscious of desire, expectation etc, and that feels a little threathening. Which desires are genuine and which aren't? I don't expect you to give me an answer, just thought I'd throw the ball out there I've been able to find temporary fulfillment of desire, and it seems to me that this was much more likely to happen when the desire was forefont in the mind and a primary point of focus. It's not that the ego is invested in keeping the desire unconscious, quite the opposite really. The process of ego keeps our attention on what it is that we want. It's that this process, of wanting possession or experience and suffering for the lack of it, is one that can only operate unconsciously and can't survive the light of day.
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Desire
Jun 21, 2015 16:53:12 GMT -5
Post by jay17 on Jun 21, 2015 16:53:12 GMT -5
So now there's the movement to become more conscious of desire, expectation etc, and that feels a little threathening. Which desires are genuine and which aren't? Why do you think becoming more aware of oneself feels threatening? I would theorize a person finds out which of their desires are genuine, is in proportion to their level of self awareness.
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jazz
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Posts: 197
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Desire
Jun 21, 2015 19:57:40 GMT -5
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Post by jazz on Jun 21, 2015 19:57:40 GMT -5
So now there's the movement to become more conscious of desire, expectation etc, and that feels a little threathening. Which desires are genuine and which aren't? Why do you think becoming more aware of oneself feels threatening? I would theorize a person finds out which of their desires are genuine, is in proportion to their level of self awareness. I would say so too. It feels threatening because there are "structures" in place which don't survive awareness.
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Desire
Jun 22, 2015 0:30:09 GMT -5
Post by jay17 on Jun 22, 2015 0:30:09 GMT -5
Why do you think becoming more aware of oneself feels threatening? I would theorize a person finds out which of their desires are genuine, is in proportion to their level of self awareness. I would say so too. It feels threatening because there are "structures" in place which don't survive awareness. Please share one example from your experiences.
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jazz
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Posts: 197
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Desire
Jun 22, 2015 1:00:06 GMT -5
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Post by jazz on Jun 22, 2015 1:00:06 GMT -5
I would say so too. It feels threatening because there are "structures" in place which don't survive awareness. Please share one example from your experiences. The structures I was refering to was finding myself in a situation where becoming more aware, so to speak, could potentially hurt people I'm in relationship with. "The structures" are a "safe" place to be and allowing my truer self to shine forth, which would mean becoming more aware, would damage those structures and hurt people around me. So there's also a desire "not to hurt people" and fear of that. I feel caught. Is that clear?
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Desire
Jun 22, 2015 13:22:37 GMT -5
Post by AlphaA on Jun 22, 2015 13:22:37 GMT -5
Please share one example from your experiences. The structures I was refering to was finding myself in a situation where becoming more aware, so to speak, could potentially hurt people I'm in relationship with. "The structures" are a "safe" place to be and allowing my truer self to shine forth, which would mean becoming more aware, would damage those structures and hurt people around me. So there's also a desire "not to hurt people" and fear of that. I feel caught. Is that clear? Ahhh.. yes, I know exactly what you mean Jazz. Not too long ago, I was in that same pickle with my daughter. What I've come to learn is that, the pain I felt..(or as you put it, "fear to not hurt people"), is simply the process of my mind re-conditioning itself to a higher aspect of self hood....because it's very selfish to ourselves to think we can hurt another if we accept our unconditional happiness...regardless of how anyone may feel. Our very nature is to be Blissful, so it's insane to allow ourselves to put compassion before self growth.
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Desire
Jun 22, 2015 14:18:53 GMT -5
Post by quinn on Jun 22, 2015 14:18:53 GMT -5
Please share one example from your experiences. The structures I was refering to was finding myself in a situation where becoming more aware, so to speak, could potentially hurt people I'm in relationship with. "The structures" are a "safe" place to be and allowing my truer self to shine forth, which would mean becoming more aware, would damage those structures and hurt people around me. So there's also a desire "not to hurt people" and fear of that. I feel caught. Is that clear? Maybe it would be good to consider how much hurt is delivered when we're unaware.
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Desire
Jun 23, 2015 4:35:27 GMT -5
Post by jay17 on Jun 23, 2015 4:35:27 GMT -5
Please share one example from your experiences. The structures I was refering to was finding myself in a situation where becoming more aware, so to speak, could potentially hurt people I'm in relationship with. "The structures" are a "safe" place to be and allowing my truer self to shine forth, which would mean becoming more aware, would damage those structures and hurt people around me. So there's also a desire "not to hurt people" and fear of that. I feel caught. Is that clear? Clearer, but then i would inquire more because i imagine, based on self observation\knowledge, that there are both beneficial and non-beneficial structures in place(i am speaking of my own definition of 'structure', that may or may not be the same as yours), so that becoming more self aware can be both good and bad for both self and others one is connected to. And because there are, potentially\most likely, non-beneficial structures, not all of them are safe to be in. One may feel secure and comfortable because one is familiar with them, but not safe - as is in harm is being done to self and others. My next step is to ask what are the details of the elements you perceive that causes you to feel caught? It seems the elements are, 'self awareness growth', 'structures' and 'hurting others'. The only one that i require more info on is you have not defined what a 'structure' is comprised of. Can and will you share an example 'structure' and a scenario in which it might cause harm to another if that structure is dissolved?
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jazz
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Posts: 197
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Desire
Jun 23, 2015 10:47:35 GMT -5
Post by jazz on Jun 23, 2015 10:47:35 GMT -5
The structures I was refering to was finding myself in a situation where becoming more aware, so to speak, could potentially hurt people I'm in relationship with. "The structures" are a "safe" place to be and allowing my truer self to shine forth, which would mean becoming more aware, would damage those structures and hurt people around me. So there's also a desire "not to hurt people" and fear of that. I feel caught. Is that clear? Clearer, but then i would inquire more because i imagine, based on self observation\knowledge, that there are both beneficial and non-beneficial structures in place(i am speaking of my own definition of 'structure', that may or may not be the same as yours), so that becoming more self aware can be both good and bad for both self and others one is connected to. And because there are, potentially\most likely, non-beneficial structures, not all of them are safe to be in. One may feel secure and comfortable because one is familiar with them, but not safe - as is in harm is being done to self and others. My next step is to ask what are the details of the elements you perceive that causes you to feel caught? It seems the elements are, 'self awareness growth', 'structures' and 'hurting others'. The only one that i require more info on is you have not defined what a 'structure' is comprised of. Can and will you share an example 'structure' and a scenario in which it might cause harm to another if that structure is dissolved? I'm reluctant to go into too much detail as I didn't mean to make this a personal exploration thread as such. I agree with you about beneficial and non beneficial structures and have seen how becoming more self aware has been positive for myself and others. As to resisting to becoming more aware I've seen the harmful effects of that (in the way I treat persons close to me as well as physical effects in my body. i.e stress, pain etc) and that's kind of where I'm finding myself atm. So one could say that non beneficial structures are in place "causing" me to hold back, not be 100% honest, which again causes pain (physical and emotional). As for the details of the elements of those structures that cause me to feel caught.. If I inquire into "caughtness" or "the one who is caught" what I find is fear of reactions from the outside, guilt, shame, beliefs about who I am, that sort of thing. I can also see an element of wanting to run away from difficult situations, so in there is "the caught one". Maybe I'm supposed to stay and use it to become more conscious. But a part of me doesn't like that. hehe.
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Desire
Jun 24, 2015 9:40:15 GMT -5
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Post by jay17 on Jun 24, 2015 9:40:15 GMT -5
Clearer, but then i would inquire more because i imagine, based on self observation\knowledge, that there are both beneficial and non-beneficial structures in place(i am speaking of my own definition of 'structure', that may or may not be the same as yours), so that becoming more self aware can be both good and bad for both self and others one is connected to. And because there are, potentially\most likely, non-beneficial structures, not all of them are safe to be in. One may feel secure and comfortable because one is familiar with them, but not safe - as is in harm is being done to self and others. My next step is to ask what are the details of the elements you perceive that causes you to feel caught? It seems the elements are, 'self awareness growth', 'structures' and 'hurting others'. The only one that i require more info on is you have not defined what a 'structure' is comprised of. Can and will you share an example 'structure' and a scenario in which it might cause harm to another if that structure is dissolved? I'm reluctant to go into too much detail as I didn't mean to make this a personal exploration thread as such. Understood. I naturally set my sails towards inner exploration as it seems logical that expressed thoughts about a topic comes from within, therefore, within the self is where the conversation is best served. I agree with you about beneficial and non beneficial structures and have seen how becoming more self aware has been positive for myself and others. As to resisting to becoming more aware I've seen the harmful effects of that (in the way I treat persons close to me as well as physical effects in my body. i.e stress, pain etc) and that's kind of where I'm finding myself atm. So one could say that non beneficial structures are in place "causing" me to hold back, not be 100% honest, which again causes pain (physical and emotional). Understood. From my experiences of such things - If the non-beneficial\n-b structures are created by self, and these structures evoke pain, then perhaps it's not the structure that is causing you to hold back, but one's own natural avoidance\recoiling response to pain is. Avoiding pain can come from either fear or love or a mixture of both. Self protection\preservation\love of self to avoid that which can cause harm to self, and fear of that which is evoking pain. But pain also has two sides to it. If pain is the self's 'warning\alerting system' that something is wrong and requires a response to fix the problem, then self has to examine to determine if the 'cause' requires more personal attention or is to be avoided. So it seems then, that if you have already examined and determined an element of yourself is an 'n-b structure', you are already aware\have judged\realized this is something about yourself you wish to improve\fix\heal\transform, so that it will produce benefit to yourself and those you connect with...and this then suggests the reason(s) you hold back from doing this requires examination and resolution. As for the details of the elements of those structures that cause me to feel caught.. If I inquire into "caughtness" or "the one who is caught" what I find is fear of reactions from the outside, guilt, shame, beliefs about who I am, that sort of thing. I can also see an element of wanting to run away from difficult situations, so in there is "the caught one". Maybe I'm supposed to stay and use it to become more conscious. But a part of me doesn't like that. hehe. I think it's common human nature to avoid pain and to seek out the path of least resistance, though throughout history, the wise ones have all stated that it's the people who face their fears, who rise to difficult challenges, these are the people who overcome and become the great ones who inspire others. And it's usually the wise ones saying this who have done all those things, they speak from their own experiences. Would it be safe to say this 'feeling caught' means something along the lines of - you are aware of a dilemma of two choices...1. stay as you are, retaining n-b structures that produce pain, and 2. faced with consequential pain as you face and deal with them. "Stuck between a rock and a hard place", as the saying goes. It has been my experience over the last 2 decades that pain is a natural by-product of growth\healing\transformation. It is a natural part of being human. But i have also noticed that as my development increases, the pain reduces. Yes, there is always an increase in pain when consciously going deeply into and dealing with problems, but that initial increase of pain dies off a lot quicker than one imagines when observing the problem from a distance. "If you want to follow me to freedom, be prepared to swim upstream, against the river of conditioning(structures). Be prepared to grapple continuously with the fierce flow of negative mental currents. In time our strokes will become effortless and our sense of purpose irresistible." - Buddha Every internal problem i have faced and healed\fixed\transformed, appeared huge and overwhelming before i began the journey, and were simple and powerless against me once i went in and understood them. As for my relationships, as i continue to transform, the ones that are meant to be, improved, our love for each other deepened, and the ones that are not meant to be fell by the wayside. Changes logically will occur when you consciously set out to change. If you change for the better, logically that which you lose was not good for you. You learn and contentedly accept this within the journey, not in agonizing about it in spectator mode. Those that take the journey into the dark unknown are the ones that shine the brightest because their journey illuminates the dark realms of themselves...and sadly, compared to how many people there are, not many take that journey...though i am hopeful that more continue to do so, thus inspire more to take their own.
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jazz
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Posts: 197
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Desire
Jun 25, 2015 11:25:28 GMT -5
Post by jazz on Jun 25, 2015 11:25:28 GMT -5
Yeah, and there is a 3rd choice which is "maybe I'm supposed to stay and learn from this" and "2" is just the old "running away from difficulties" into fantasy. Discerning isn't that clear yet.
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Desire
Jun 25, 2015 13:15:19 GMT -5
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Post by jay17 on Jun 25, 2015 13:15:19 GMT -5
Yeah, and there is a 3rd choice which is "maybe I'm supposed to stay and learn from this" and "2" is just the old "running away from difficulties" into fantasy. Discerning isn't that clear yet. I think as long as a person remains courageously and compassionately open and honest with themself, and they persevere with their inner journey to know themself, the individual will discover all that is required. If the journey is like the flowing of a river, sometimes you travel fast in the rapids sections, accumulating a lot of data quickly thus moving forward the same, other times you come to deep slow moving lake sections where the pace is very slow and you can spend years in that one state, delving deeply into self. The pace of the journey is also determined and learnt by self within the journey. It is not subject to the pace and timing of the external world, of the many activities within society. The internal clock and landscape is unique for each individual. Go too fast and self misses vital info, go too slow and self stagnates. Either way hinders the purpose of the inner journey. The more one learns about themself and utilises that knowledge, the more efficient and effective the growth\healing\transformation\expansion\whatever term suits oneself. And like all new things experienced, one is much slower at it at first, then as skill and self confidence increases, the momentum builds and the speed and efficiency becomes an effortless effort. In the physical realm regarding Momentum: It takes a helluva lot more energy\effort to build up speed than it does to maintain that speed once reached. And i have come to perceive that the physical realm is manifesting from a non physical realm, so the principles i see in the physical must come from the non physical. "As above, so below."
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jazz
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Post by jazz on Jun 25, 2015 14:05:09 GMT -5
Took this photo on a recent trip to Ko Phangan, Thailand. A painting in a vegan restaurant.
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