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Post by zendancer on Jun 6, 2015 13:00:32 GMT -5
During one of the satsangs this week I spoke with Gangaji about many of the things we often discuss on this forum, and I took that opportunity to explain a bit about ATA-T and how it differs from mindfulness (ATA+T). Did Gangajii have any insight or comments about ATA? She understood what I was describing, and agreed with my interpretation of Ramana's quote regarding sahaja Samadhi. I explained ATA-T primarily for the benefit of the other attendees. It was new to most people, and several folks were quite surprised to learn about it. Two people did not believe it was possible to look at the world in total silence, but they decided to give it a try for a few months and report back on their investigation. Gangaji was just as clear as I remembered from past meetings, and it is always great fun to watch her skillful interactions with seekers. She seems to have mellowed somewhat over the years (in the past she could be quite ruthless), and is generally supportive of people regardless of what they bring to the table. Like Tolle, she understands that people have to be where they are, but she is always inviting them to become more silent and to inquire more deeply into what's going on. ATST she doesn't put up with any headtrips, and she cuts through whatever erroneous ideas people are attached to as cleanly as a sharp knife.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2015 13:20:27 GMT -5
I agree, it's indubitable that seeking appears, but when I look deeply into my experience, I never actually find a seeker, or even a body for that matter. I find a seeker AND a body, AND 'i' am not confined/defined by that clarity, it is simply seen for what it 'is': part of the whole.. Well finding the appearances of a seeker and body doesn't take much effort, as laffy says it's a no brainer. I was a little more curious and went looking for them beyond their appearances. But I just couldn't find them. Then I realized that they were hiding in the same place that freedom was; in everything...
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Post by laughter on Jun 6, 2015 13:25:03 GMT -5
Did Gangajii have any insight or comments about ATA? She understood what I was describing, and agreed with my interpretation of Ramana's quote regarding sahaja Samadhi. I explained ATA-T primarily for the benefit of the other attendees. It was new to most people, and several folks were quite surprised to learn about it. Two people did not believe it was possible to look at the world in total silence, but they decided to give it a try for a few months and report back on their investigation. Gangaji was just as clear as I remembered from past meetings, and it is always great fun to watch her skillful interactions with seekers. She seems to have mellowed somewhat over the years (in the past she could be quite ruthless), and is generally supportive of people regardless of what they bring to the table. Like Tolle, she understands that people have to be where they are, but she is always inviting them to become more silent and to inquire more deeply into what's going on. ATST she doesn't put up with any headtrips, and she cuts through whatever erroneous ideas people are attached to as cleanly as a sharp knife. Thanks ZD.
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Post by laughter on Jun 6, 2015 13:31:32 GMT -5
I find a seeker AND a body, AND 'i' am not confined/defined by that clarity, it is simply seen for what it 'is': part of the whole.. Well finding the appearances of a seeker and body doesn't take much effort, as laffy says it's a no brainer. I was a little more curious and went looking for them beyond their appearances. But I just couldn't find them. Then I realized that they were hiding in the same place that freedom was; in everything...
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Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2015 13:38:27 GMT -5
She understood what I was describing, and agreed with my interpretation of Ramana's quote regarding sahaja Samadhi. I explained ATA-T primarily for the benefit of the other attendees. It was new to most people, and several folks were quite surprised to learn about it. Two people did not believe it was possible to look at the world in total silence, but they decided to give it a try for a few months and report back on their investigation. Gangaji was just as clear as I remembered from past meetings, and it is always great fun to watch her skillful interactions with seekers. She seems to have mellowed somewhat over the years (in the past she could be quite ruthless), and is generally supportive of people regardless of what they bring to the table. Like Tolle, she understands that people have to be where they are, but she is always inviting them to become more silent and to inquire more deeply into what's going on. ATST she doesn't put up with any headtrips, and she cuts through whatever erroneous ideas people are attached to as cleanly as a sharp knife. Thanks ZD. Laughter or ZD, can you explain to me how her statement fits into non-duality and the illusion of a separate individual, experiencer, doer... seeking and expecting to find something in silence and inquiry? Or is she making a concession to those who still believe they are a real person that exists?
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Post by laughter on Jun 6, 2015 13:59:56 GMT -5
Thanks ZD. Laughter or ZD, can you explain to me how her statement fits into non-duality and the illusion of a separate individual, experiencer, doer... seeking and expecting to find something in silence and inquiry? Or is she making a concession to those who still believe they are a real person that exists? I'll defer to ZD here source. I mean, he's actually met her!
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Post by zendancer on Jun 6, 2015 14:14:43 GMT -5
Laffy,
One of the interesting things that happened after the silent part of the retreat ended was that different people asked me if I had a website or a blog. The first time I was asked this I said no. I started to suggest visiting the ST forum, but when I quickly reflected upon what they would likely encounter if they came here, I realized that I could no longer recommend this site. Instead, I gave the person my email address and promised that I would have a website available in the near future. I had thought many times in the past about the possibility of putting together a website devoted to Self-realization, meditation, and other related issues, but this week I knew that that project just couldn't wait any longer.
In the past I had bought the domain name "attendingtheactual.com", and although I own some other domain names, I'll probably stick with that one because I now get asked about ATA so often. I'm a Luddite, so I'll have to get some help setting up the domain, but in the weeks ahead I hope to have a basic website functioning in some minimal manner. Stay tuned.....
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Post by zendancer on Jun 6, 2015 14:36:10 GMT -5
Source,
Tolle, Mooji, Gangaji, Adya, and many other people who are widely regarded as Self-realized know from direct experience that we humans are deeply conditioned by our culture, our unique experiences, and our imaginative thinking to perceive the world as if we are separate from it. Most of these people do not think of themselves as teachers in the usual sense. They see themselves more like signposts pointing to a living truth that each human has to discover for herself. In fact, this past week Gangaji specifically denied being a teacher because, as she stated, "what I'm pointing to cannot be taught."
From my POV, and I suspect from the POV of all the above-mentioned people, silence, and/or becoming free from the jabbering of the intellect, is the key to discovering everything important about human existence. Ramana remained silent for many years after his realization because he considered silence to be the highest teaching and the most direct route to the Infinite. I often tell people that they can find the answer to any existential question they have by simply becoming silent, but I don't tell anyone to believe this. I explain how to attain silence (by shifting attention away from thoughts), and invite people to investigate the matter for themselves.
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Post by zin on Jun 6, 2015 14:47:41 GMT -5
Laffy, One of the interesting things that happened after the silent part of the retreat ended was that different people asked me if I had a website or a blog. The first time I was asked this I said no. I started to suggest visiting the ST forum, but when I quickly reflected upon what they would likely encounter if they came here, I realized that I could no longer recommend this site. Instead, I gave the person my email address and promised that I would have a website available in the near future. I had thought many times in the past about the possibility of putting together a website devoted to Self-realization, meditation, and other related issues, but this week I knew that that project just couldn't wait any longer. In the past I had bought the domain name "attendingtheactual.com", and although I own some other domain names, I'll probably stick with that one because I now get asked about ATA so often. I'm a Luddite, so I'll have to get some help setting up the domain, but in the weeks ahead I hope to have a basic website functioning in some minimal manner. Stay tuned.....
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Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2015 14:56:32 GMT -5
Source, Tolle, Mooji, Gangaji, Adya, and many other people who are widely regarded as Self-realized know from direct experience that we humans are deeply conditioned by our culture, our unique experiences, and our imaginative thinking to perceive the world as if we are separate from it. Most of these people do not think of themselves as teachers in the usual sense. They see themselves more like signposts pointing to a living truth that each human has to discover for herself. In fact, this past week Gangaji specifically denied being a teacher because, as she stated, " what I'm pointing to cannot be taught." From my POV, and I suspect from the POV of all the above-mentioned people, silence, and/or becoming free from the jabbering of the intellect, is the key to discovering everything important about human existence. Ramana remained silent for many years after his realization because he considered silence to be the highest teaching and the most direct route to the Infinite. I often tell people that they can find the answer to any existential question they have by simply becoming silent, but I don't tell anyone to believe this. I explain how to attain silence (by shifting attention away from thoughts), and invite people to investigate the matter for themselves. Thanks ZD. I suppose this is where the laughing spontaneously erupts at Gods cosmic joke but there isn't anybody laughing...
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Post by figgles on Jun 6, 2015 15:07:14 GMT -5
Laffy, One of the interesting things that happened after the silent part of the retreat ended was that different people asked me if I had a website or a blog. The first time I was asked this I said no. I started to suggest visiting the ST forum, but when I quickly reflected upon what they would likely encounter if they came here, I realized that I could no longer recommend this site. Instead, I gave the person my email address and promised that I would have a website available in the near future. I had thought many times in the past about the possibility of putting together a website devoted to Self-realization, meditation, and other related issues, but this week I knew that that project just couldn't wait any longer. In the past I had bought the domain name "attendingtheactual.com", and although I own some other domain names, I'll probably stick with that one because I now get asked about ATA so often. I'm a Luddite, so I'll have to get some help setting up the domain, but in the weeks ahead I hope to have a basic website functioning in some minimal manner. Stay tuned..... If you're interested in doing it yourself, SBI (Site build it) for under $400.00 per year, walk you through step by step, from site conception to creation, optimization and maintenance....so easy it's kinda fun...I'm actually putting one together right now for my hubby's painting biz.
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Post by zendancer on Jun 6, 2015 15:53:40 GMT -5
Laffy, One of the interesting things that happened after the silent part of the retreat ended was that different people asked me if I had a website or a blog. The first time I was asked this I said no. I started to suggest visiting the ST forum, but when I quickly reflected upon what they would likely encounter if they came here, I realized that I could no longer recommend this site. Instead, I gave the person my email address and promised that I would have a website available in the near future. I had thought many times in the past about the possibility of putting together a website devoted to Self-realization, meditation, and other related issues, but this week I knew that that project just couldn't wait any longer. In the past I had bought the domain name "attendingtheactual.com", and although I own some other domain names, I'll probably stick with that one because I now get asked about ATA so often. I'm a Luddite, so I'll have to get some help setting up the domain, but in the weeks ahead I hope to have a basic website functioning in some minimal manner. Stay tuned..... If you're interested in doing it yourself, SBI (Site build it) for under $400.00 per year, walk you through step by step, from site conception to creation, optimization and maintenance....so easy it's kinda fun...I'm actually putting one together right now for my hubby's painting biz. Thanks Figs. My daughter and her fiancé have a sophisticated website for their dance band, and I'm hoping that they can help me with this. If not, I'll check out SBI. I'm a real do-it-yourselfer, but I'd rather hammer nails, hang sheetrock, dig a ditch, write, climb a mountain, or do almost anything other than something like this. I haven't even gotten the basics of my new smartphone mastered yet, so the thought of setting up a website is rather daunting to say the least. Remember, "age-related-cognitive decline" is a recognized condition in the medical community! ha ha
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Post by zendancer on Jun 6, 2015 16:59:15 GMT -5
I could tell dozens of funny stories about things that happened this last week, as well as things that were said, but I'll confine myself to just one or two. Ha ha.
1. On the way to the retreat I picked up six bottles of a decent inexpensive pinot noir, but when we got to the center, we discovered that one of the rules of the retreat included "no consumption of alcoholic beverages." Carol wondered if we should hide the bottles in our rental car. I told her that rules are made to be broken, and that we have always been bad Zen students, so each night after dinner, we went to our room, popped open a bottle, and enjoyed bar time. Maintenance people cleaned the room each day, so Carol would not let me throw a bottle, cork, or aluminized seal in the trash lest we be discovered. As the week went along, my suitcase became filled with empty bottles, corks, and seals. On the last day of the retreat I told Carol that I was going to dump all of that trash in a bear-proof garbage can located between two of the cabins. "No, no," she said, "they might figure out where it came from." I had a hard time keeping my laughter contained, but I understood my wife's mind. We therefore carried all of the trash 40 miles away to a dumpster located beside a McDonalds restaurant. There, I disposed of the incriminating evidence. I can understand why almost all spiritual groups discourage alcohol and/or drug use during a retreat ("let's stay as clear-headed as possible"), but ironically, the Stanford Sierra Center shares property with a Catholic church, and I saw a well-stocked wine bar in the hallway beside the kitchen. I thought, "It's too bad that several of us can't sit around the crackling fire after dinner, and talk existential stuff while sipping a mellow glass of vino."
2. Several weeks before we went on the retreat Carol said, "You never stay silent on these kinds of retreats." I replied, "That's not true; I always stay silent except with you." She said, "That's what I mean; you're always talking to ME!" I said, "Well, we've jabbered together for forty years about existential matters, but if you want me to stay silent this time, I will not say a single word." After we got there, the silence between us lasted about an hour. Ha ha. Carol accusingly said, "See, I told you that this would happen." I laughed and replied, "Well, I just can't help myself. I can only blame it on being a bad Zen student." Carol replied that the next retreat she goes on will be without me.
3. Someone during one of the satsang sessions mentioned the Buddha's teaching about "all suffering comes from desire, and the goal of the spiritual life is to become free from desire." Gangaji replied, "Well, I don't know if the Buddha's teaching in this case was translated accurately, but if it was, then I think he was mistaken." That comment led to some seriously heavy-duty laughter. She continued, "You know, he lived in a different time and a different culture, and all teachings are contextual."
I really got a kick out of what she was pointing to. One of the reasons I lost interest in the Zen tradition is that it is much too cold and austere for my taste. There ain't much joie de vivre to be found there! Ha ha. I remember the first time I went to a Gangaji satsang in Nashville (probably 18 years ago), and the main thing that struck me within minutes of entering the place was the warmth and love that was almost a tangible force within the auditorium (not only between students and Gangaji but also between each other). IMO the Zen tradition could use a lot more love, laughter, joie de vivre, and human warmth.
4. During a conversation with a group of people after the silence ended, someone said to me, "If you understand all of this stuff, why did you come to this retreat?" I laughed and replied, "Because it's so much fun to hear the truth spoken in unique and creative ways, because I enjoy silence, because I wanted to see if Gangaji's style has changed over the last few years, because I love to hike in mountains and wilderness areas, because I thought it would be a great place for a vacation, because I love talking to people who are sincerely interested in finding the truth, and......how many more reasons would you like?" ha ha. I could also have said, "I didn't have a choice," but that would have opened up a bag of worms that usually increases confusion rather than decreases it. Some things are best left unsaid. ha ha
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Post by tzujanli on Jun 6, 2015 20:49:15 GMT -5
I find a seeker AND a body, AND 'i' am not confined/defined by that clarity, it is simply seen for what it 'is': part of the whole.. Well finding the appearances of a seeker and body doesn't take much effort, as laffy says it's a no brainer. I was a little more curious and went looking for them beyond their appearances. But I just couldn't find them. Then I realized that they were hiding in the same place that freedom was; in everything... That's the BS word game, 'appearances'.. what 'is' appears when it intersects the experiencer's awareness and informs the mind, and what experiencers imagine informs the mind, too.. nothing is 'hiding', some things are overlooked because that experiencer is 'looking for' confirmation of their beliefs without the willingness to 'see' everything.. just because something is not seen doesn't mean it's hiding..
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Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2015 22:34:33 GMT -5
Well finding the appearances of a seeker and body doesn't take much effort, as laffy says it's a no brainer. I was a little more curious and went looking for them beyond their appearances. But I just couldn't find them. Then I realized that they were hiding in the same place that freedom was; in everything... That's the BS word game, 'appearances'.. what 'is' appears when it intersects the experiencer's awareness and informs the mind, and what experiencers imagine informs the mind, too.. nothing is 'hiding', some things are overlooked because that experiencer is 'looking for' confirmation of their beliefs without the willingness to 'see' everything.. just because something is not seen doesn't mean it's hiding.. I think I understand what your saying, you are separating 'I awareness', into an experiencer(I) with an attribute of awareness. I don't have a problem with that because that's the way it appears to me as well. I'm saying the appearance of separation(experiencer)(I) is an illusion. What's happening(wholeness) is made of what is; awareness and what it is not; appearance of a separate experiencer.
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