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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2015 16:11:02 GMT -5
what is your understanding of "good points"? welcome to the forum, regardless ;-) What is your understanding of people having personal preferences that you do not agree with so you choose to voice your disapproval of? ahhhh... "good point" Jay...
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Post by Deleted on May 25, 2015 8:05:42 GMT -5
popee and zendancer, thanks for the welcome, guys.
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Post by Deleted on May 25, 2015 8:24:59 GMT -5
Hi Jay
The question of which faculties are employed in the processing of the raw datum of experience leads right to the heart of epistemology and touches on neurobiology and philosophy of mind on the way - it is potentially a vast question. With that caution in mind I'll have to report that I can't accurately say what is involved or how the process works. Take the sentence "existence is a dynamic event presenting itself." That's the sense I get in the present moment. It feels true in a powerful visceral way. But don't ask me what my biology is doing (or indeed, what the cosmos is up to.) I don't really know. (Studies on the cerebral hemispheres report that a tendency to fragmentation is a procedure of left hemispheric processing and so I suspect that in meditation or present moment awareness there is a decrease of activity in this hemisphere.)
You say: "I will ask two more in order to increase my understanding of what you are saying, so that i may see if they are of worth to me also."
Rather than a narrow analysis of what is reported, simply try to get a broad feel for where it points. And then go for a long walk and sit beside a stream, relax, take some deep breaths and… who knows.
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Post by zendancer on May 25, 2015 8:46:36 GMT -5
Hi Jay The question of which faculties are employed in the processing of the raw datum of experience leads right to the heart of epistemology and touches on neurobiology and philosophy of mind on the way - it is potentially a vast question. With that caution in mind I'll have to report that I can't accurately say what is involved or how the process works. Take the sentence "existence is a dynamic event presenting itself." That's the sense I get in the present moment. It feels true in a powerful visceral way. But don't ask me what my biology is doing (or indeed, what the cosmos is up to.) I don't really know. (Studies on the cerebral hemispheres report that a tendency to fragmentation is a procedure of left hemispheric processing and so I suspect that in meditation or present moment awareness there is a decrease of activity in this hemisphere.) You say: "I will ask two more in order to increase my understanding of what you are saying, so that i may see if they are of worth to me also." Rather than a narrow analysis of what is reported, simply try to get a broad feel for where it points. And then go for a long walk and sit beside a stream, relax, take some deep breaths and… who knows. Excellent advice!
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Post by jay17 on May 25, 2015 15:39:32 GMT -5
The question of which faculties are employed in the processing of the raw datum of experience leads right to the heart of epistemology and touches on neurobiology and philosophy of mind on the way - it is potentially a vast question. With that caution in mind I'll have to report that I can't accurately say what is involved or how the process works. Take the sentence "existence is a dynamic event presenting itself." That's the sense I get in the present moment. It feels true in a powerful visceral way. But don't ask me what my biology is doing (or indeed, what the cosmos is up to.) I don't really know. (Studies on the cerebral hemispheres report that a tendency to fragmentation is a procedure of left hemispheric processing and so I suspect that in meditation or present moment awareness there is a decrease of activity in this hemisphere.) You say: "I will ask two more in order to increase my understanding of what you are saying, so that i may see if they are of worth to me also." Rather than a narrow analysis of what is reported, simply try to get a broad feel for where it points. And then go for a long walk and sit beside a stream, relax, take some deep breaths and… who knows. First you say my questioning is related to potential vastness(1st underlined text), then you say they are related to narrow analysis.(2nd underlined) You then suggest i try\experience connecting with existence as expressed in 3rd underlined... Thus it seems to me that perhaps you perceive i do not connect with existence in that manner. But surely, how could i ask a question that points to a vast landscape if i am narrow minded. If i ask a broad question, does this not suggest i ask from a broad perspective. It does continue to appear to me that you are of the opinion that thinking is a restrictive activity.
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Post by relinquish on May 25, 2015 17:12:47 GMT -5
Welcome to the forum Moondance. I, too, feel that the wave/ocean analogy is a very effective illustration of the fundamental absence of exclusivity in all 'apparent objects', along with the truth of impermanence. In my view, separation only seems to be experienced where this belief in exclusivity is occurring. Once again, welcome.
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Post by Deleted on May 26, 2015 8:25:47 GMT -5
Welcome to the forum Moondance. I, too, feel that the wave/ocean analogy is a very effective illustration of the fundamental absence of exclusivity in all 'apparent objects', along with the truth of impermanence. In my view, separation only seems to be experienced where this belief in exclusivity is occurring. Once again, welcome. Nicely observed, Relinquish. Thanks for the welcome.
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Post by Deleted on May 26, 2015 8:42:17 GMT -5
Jay, I don't think that the ability to ask potentially vast questions necessarily indicates a vast intellect or broad mindedness. Small children do it all the time. At the same time I don't think that the ability to focus narrowly on a subject is an indication of narrow mindedness - it's indispensable in certain areas of life.
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Post by jay17 on May 27, 2015 2:22:38 GMT -5
Jay, I don't think that the ability to ask potentially vast questions necessarily indicates a vast intellect or broad mindedness. Small children do it all the time. At the same time I don't think that the ability to focus narrowly on a subject is an indication of narrow mindedness - it's indispensable in certain areas of life. Well, then i have no idea what your problem is with thinking, with me asking specific questions or you choosing to not answer them.
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Post by Deleted on May 27, 2015 8:35:04 GMT -5
Hi Jay
I've no idea what my problem with thinking is either. It's news to me.
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Post by jay17 on May 30, 2015 1:20:18 GMT -5
Hi Jay I've no idea what my problem with thinking is either. It's news to me. What are the practical benefits to interfacing with existence this way... ...as in what can that process be used for in day to day living, what can one achieve with it... Rather than a narrow analysis of what is reported, simply try to get a broad feel for where it points. And then go for a long walk and sit beside a stream, relax, take some deep breaths and… who knows. ...and is critical and analytical thinking a part of that process?
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Post by Deleted on May 30, 2015 8:07:41 GMT -5
What are the practical benefits to interfacing with existence this way... ...as in what can that process be used for in day to day living, what can one achieve with it... Rather than a narrow analysis of what is reported, simply try to get a broad feel for where it points. And then go for a long walk and sit beside a stream, relax, take some deep breaths and… who knows. ...and is critical and analytical thinking a part of that process? It's difficult to quantify. As I've mentioned, sixteen years ago my life was quite chaotic - I was working far too hard and drinking way too much. So I had already decided that I needed to change my life. Meditation was a big part of this and it was through meditation that the shift in perception occurred. Sixteen years later I'm in a very different place - how much of this is due to a steady meditation practice, lifestyle choices or the insight, I'm not exactly sure. What is clear is that there is a certain underlying ease or well-being in the present moment perception of existence as an ever-fresh spontaneous happening. As I've indicated, analytical thinking - in particular the tendency to fragment and freeze-frame the flow of existence as it unfolds can be a hindrance to seeing existence as the dynamic shifting gestalt that it is.
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Post by quinn on May 30, 2015 15:29:45 GMT -5
What are the practical benefits to interfacing with existence this way... ...as in what can that process be used for in day to day living, what can one achieve with it... ...and is critical and analytical thinking a part of that process? It's difficult to quantify. As I've mentioned, sixteen years ago my life was quite chaotic - I was working far too hard and drinking way too much. So I had already decided that I needed to change my life. Meditation was a big part of this and it was through meditation that the shift in perception occurred. Sixteen years later I'm in a very different place - how much of this is due to a steady meditation practice, lifestyle choices or the insight, I'm not exactly sure. What is clear is that there is a certain underlying ease or well-being in the present moment perception of existence as an ever-fresh spontaneous happening. As I've indicated, analytical thinking - in particular the tendency to fragment and freeze-frame the flow of existence as it unfolds can be a hindrance to seeing existence as the dynamic shifting gestalt that it is. Nicely put, Moondance. And a belated welcome, too.
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Post by jay17 on May 30, 2015 18:58:31 GMT -5
What are the practical benefits to interfacing with existence this way... ...as in what can that process be used for in day to day living, what can one achieve with it... ...and is critical and analytical thinking a part of that process? It's difficult to quantify. As I've mentioned, sixteen years ago my life was quite chaotic - I was working far too hard and drinking way too much. So I had already decided that I needed to change my life. Meditation was a big part of this and it was through meditation that the shift in perception occurred. Sixteen years later I'm in a very different place - how much of this is due to a steady meditation practice, lifestyle choices or the insight, I'm not exactly sure. What is clear is that there is a certain underlying ease or well-being in the present moment perception of existence as an ever-fresh spontaneous happening. As I've indicated, analytical thinking - in particular the tendency to fragment and freeze-frame the flow of existence as it unfolds can be a hindrance to seeing existence as the dynamic shifting gestalt that it is. Perhaps it's difficult for you to quantify because you do not analyze the info you experience from your meditative state of being. Analysis: - An investigation of the component parts of a whole and their relations in making up the whole. - The abstract separation of a whole into its constituent parts in order to study the parts and their relations. I have never found analysis hinders my understanding of the interconnective flow of all things. Quite the opposite actually.
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Post by jay17 on May 31, 2015 3:57:25 GMT -5
Just finished reading this in New Dawn an hour or so ago...
------------------------------------------------------ "If there is a thread that connects human beings throughout history, it may be the thread of real thinking, the thread of heart-felt questioning about life and death, joy and suffering, and our place and destiny on this earth. Since ancient times we have looked both within and without for answers to the perplexing questions that challenge us at every breath. We have felt, perhaps instinctively, that these questions - and our search for the answers to them - are what give our lives real meaning.
In the past, our questioning was guided by the shaman and the priest. It was guided by the great philosophers and scientists who took the time to look, listen, think, and explore. And it was guided by our own magical relationship to a natural world that reminded us through its awesome beauty and power that we were part of something much larger than our thought could comprehend. There was the sense, the premonition, that the magical beauty and power that we saw around us was also, inexplicably, within us.
When Socrates and others uttered the ultimate human(Delphic) challenge - "Man, know Thy Self" - they understood that this "Self" could never be known in any ordinary way, as we know the events and objects in and around us. They understood that this "knowing" involved the totality of our being, that it was a matter more of direct experience than of mental reflection. To be sure, the mind was involved in this knowing, but so was the heart and body. And so was the consciousness within which everything else sprang to life.
They also understood that the real question underlying all the others is the question, "Who am I?" For only this question, deeply felt, can mobilise all of our energies in the quest for what is real. And so, in one way or another, they helped us search for what was real, what was essential, in ourselves.
Today, for the most part, this kind of thinking, this kind of questioning is guided by specialists in one area or another, who feel compelled to give us ready-made answers from thier own disciplines. Unfortunately, these answers, even when they are useful, have to do with bits and pieces of ourselves and our world. We find ourselves emotionally and intellectually fragmented with no real understanding of who we are or what is really going on. Our thinking is what Martin Heidegger calls "calculative thinking", thinking directed toward manipulation, toward obtaining some specific result. It "races from one prospect to the next. Calculative thinking never stops, never collects itself."
Conditioned as we are by this kind of thinking, it is difficult to imagine an alternative. But sometimes we feel called toward what Heidegger refers to as "meditative thinking", thinking that "contemplates the meaning which reigns in everything that is." This kind of thinking, which for Heidegger, lies at the heart of what it means to be human, has to do with pondering and waiting, with going beyond our ordinary understanding and attempting to remain open for truth to manifest.
Unfortunately, modern society provides little support for this kind of thinking. How could it? If we look clearly around us we see a society in which the mass media, government, religion, business, industry, the medical establishment, academia, even the arts - almost all institutions of modern life - vie for our attention, energy, and money with "sound bites" and slogans designed to arouse our emotions and our desires. We see a society that depends on "calculative thinking", thinking orientated only to immediate action and gratification.
Meditative thinking, however, requires patience and silence, 'being', as well as, 'doing'. It requires that we somehow stop and recollect ourselves. It requires conditions in which we can practice innocent looking and listening, the kind of awareness that we experience when we truly, unselfishly love someone or something - when we love the truth. For real thinking depends on openness, openness to whatever is in front of us. And it must start with what is closest - our own being. It is only then, when we are truly open to ourselves, that what is true can enter our perception and reveal itself fully to us. It is only then that we can go beyond the "stimulus-response" mode of living, a mode of living that is suited to machines, not people.
It is startling to realise that every time we take a breath of fresh air, we are breathing many of the same molecules that Socrates, Jesus, and others from ancient times breathed. But it is even more startling, perhaps, to realise that every time we truly ponder the question "Who am I?" - when it reverberates throughout our entire being - we are experiencing a profound identity with everyone who has ever lived.
LEARNING TO "STOP" Whatever our occupation, our skin colour, our marital status, our hobbies, our beliefs, our personal interests, we are all beings who need, at heart, to rediscover the miracle, the wonder, of existing on this earth. This rediscovery begins with learning how to "stop" inwardly, to turn from the known to the unknown in ourselves.
Our lives give us many opportunities to come to this "stop". When we get into bed at night at the end of a long day, or when we first wake up in the morning and are about to leap forward into our day, there is sometimes a gap between one activity and the next, a space, where we can intentionally pause for an instant and feel a deep underlying wish, a deep longing, for something that we cannot quite define.
The ordinary shocks and contradictions of our daily lives can also, if we let them, bring us to this space. We can also sometimes experience it between our various automatic thoughts and feelings, when one thought or feeling is about to run down and another begin, or between exhalation and our inhalation.
If we are to begin to practice real thinking, we need to be attentive to this gap and the deep inner wish that it sometimes reveals. We need to give this wish time and space to expand throughout our entire being, and begin to enter into more parts of our lives. We need to respect this wish for what it truly is - a beckoning toward our own true nature - and not immediately identify it with a desire for something that we think we need or want. We need to recognise that this wish is a reminder of the miracle of being.
The great teachers have told us that the purpose of real thinking is to help us put into questions, the ideas, aims and assumptions that keep us locked in our egoism, our own perceptual prison, and to show us what is required to venture out of this prison into the world of authentic consciousness. They have told us that this consciousness is what lies at the heart of our own being, if we would but open ourselves to its presence. But whatever they have told us, we know in our own hearts that our ordinary thought, however useful it may be in our occupations and for solving the everyday problems in our lives, does not open us to ourselves, our friends, and our world. It does not welcome the profound questions that occasionally arise out of the depths of our being. It does not bring us the deep understanding and happiness, either personally or collectively, that we all desire. For this, we need to learn and experience the art of real thinking.
Excerpt from 'The empty vessel: A journal of contemporary Taoism' by Dennis Lewis ---------------------------------------- There's a couple of minor things i would disagree with, one of them being the term "real thinking", as i prefer to call it 'more beneficial thinking', or 'holistic thinking'. But apart from these differences, i rez pretty well with what he says.
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