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Post by Gopal on Nov 11, 2018 10:11:09 GMT -5
I desperately wished to have many such realization but it is not happening after words. I don't know why! This desperately wishing for realisations is no good. They only arrive unexpected.. they are from the spontaneous, not the desperately wished for. Completely agreed and that's what I gave up expecting! Nowadays I continue have experiential realization!
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Post by Gopal on Nov 11, 2018 10:11:44 GMT -5
Yes, I know you don't see the disagreement as consequential (if you did, you would surely have to talk about it), but I'm not clear what the significance is of the page you linked. So maybe if I ask you this instead. The words, 'consciousness looking through each pair of eyes' were yours, right? I'm not misattributing them am I? Whereas E would likely say that he doesn't know if 'consciousness is looking through another pair of eyes. Why do you disagree on this point? What is the difference in your understandings that creates this disagreement? I think the understanding was originally ZD's, and it made sense to Laughter. No, that line is from Laffy!
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Post by Gopal on Nov 11, 2018 10:18:52 GMT -5
I desperately wished to have many such realization but it is not happening after words. I don't know why! Try some koans in the meantime. My very recent realization says to me that forming the answer or tend to find the solution to fix something or to create something actually creates the "seeking vs finding the answer" roller coaster. So I am very clear now that nothing to know or to see. My mind stops finding the answer now. Nowadays when it finds the answer, it goes like I am not involved, or it happens by itself. I strongly believe that any movement which is not filled by our self soon will stop.
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Post by zendancer on Nov 11, 2018 10:19:09 GMT -5
I think the understanding was originally ZD's, and it made sense to Laughter. No, that line is from Laffy! Probably both of us because I've made that claim repeatedly over the years. There's only one thing here, and it is what animates everything in the cosmos. It is the only thing that sees, thinks, or acts, and this can be directly known.
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Post by Gopal on Nov 11, 2018 10:28:10 GMT -5
No, that line is from Laffy! Probably both of us because I've made that claim repeatedly over the years. There's only one thing here, and it is what animates everything in the cosmos. It is the only thing that sees, thinks, or acts, and this can be directly known. All right! I have first seen him writing that statement.
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Post by Reefs on Nov 11, 2018 10:42:07 GMT -5
Frankly, my take is that the not-knowing in question is a seekers position, but I've had enough dialog with E' to be convinced he's not confused about anything, and have reduced our disagreement down to one very fine point that I find, essentially, inconclusive. But my experience as a seeker, is that the seeking didn't get interesting, and, in fact, wasn't even done consciously, until the illusion of the SVP was seen clearly for what it was. This isn't to say that not everyone who's never considered the not-knowing in question is still seeking, but all the Joe C. Trancer's who never sought, definitely never considered it, and the notion of the fallacy of any and all sorts of objective reality is one that only Trancer's and seekers object to. The reason for the objection is quite obvious to me. TBH, the solopsistesque conversation has been flogged to a pulp - but it just won't die. As Devo put it: No one gets away Until they whip it I say whip it Whip it good I feel it pulling at me - I have no strength to resist nor endure it - It's inevitable doom! What me worry.
If it would have been a solely philosophical discussion, it would have been over a long time ago. Solipsism has been called a bankrupt philosophy for a reason. But there seems to be aspects of self-image/self-identity tied into the discussion for some, which means there's a lot at stake and so they keep it going. Which may also explain why some can easily agree to disagree and some just can't.
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Post by Gopal on Nov 11, 2018 10:51:42 GMT -5
TBH, the solopsistesque conversation has been flogged to a pulp - but it just won't die. As Devo put it: No one gets away Until they whip it I say whip it Whip it good I feel it pulling at me - I have no strength to resist nor endure it - It's inevitable doom! What me worry.
If it would have been a solely philosophical discussion, it would have been over a long time ago. Solipsism has been called a bankrupt philosophy for a reason. But there seems to be aspects of self-image/self-identity tied into the discussion for some, which means there's a lot at stake and so they keep it going. Which may also explain why some can easily agree to disagree and some just can't. Its good to give up that argument. That argument is unnecessary!
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Post by Reefs on Nov 11, 2018 11:04:37 GMT -5
Everything is an extension of Source/All-That-Is. And the camouflage, isn't that, right? Not to be flip, and definitely not to play "gotcha'", but it seems to me you didn't relate it back and directly answer the original question. Perhaps you get a sense, from that, why E' goes to great lengths to disclaim that he makes any association with the word, "real". The way Seth uses the term camouflage in it's broadest sense is more or less the way we use the terms form or appearances. The more specific use of camouflage refers to reality systems (like this space-time-reality system we are all familiar with). Real in my book means existing in its own right. Individual appearances don't exist in their own right. In that sense, they are not real (screen metaphor). However, whatever manifests in whatever form can ever only be an extension of Source. In that sense, whatever manifests in whatever form is as real as it gets (wave/ocean metaphor). Notice how Enigma never actually uses the wave/ocean metaphor. He almost exclusively goes with the screen metaphor. And to anyone who has been paying attention to his position in the kensho discussions, this won't come as a surprise as is his lack of interest in the term 'real'.
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Post by Reefs on Nov 11, 2018 11:50:59 GMT -5
If it would have been a solely philosophical discussion, it would have been over a long time ago. Solipsism has been called a bankrupt philosophy for a reason. But there seems to be aspects of self-image/self-identity tied into the discussion for some, which means there's a lot at stake and so they keep it going. Which may also explain why some can easily agree to disagree and some just can't. Its good to give up that argument. That argument is unnecessary! Correct! Correct! Correct!
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Post by zendancer on Nov 11, 2018 13:48:37 GMT -5
And the camouflage, isn't that, right? Not to be flip, and definitely not to play "gotcha'", but it seems to me you didn't relate it back and directly answer the original question. Perhaps you get a sense, from that, why E' goes to great lengths to disclaim that he makes any association with the word, "real". Real in my book means existing in its own right. Individual appearances don't exist in their own right. In that sense, they are not real (screen metaphor). However, whatever manifests in whatever form can ever only be an extension of Source. In that sense, whatever manifests in whatever form is as real as it gets (wave/ocean metaphor). Agreed. The way I conceptualize what's going on is that Source is a field of intelligent energy, and when that energy manifests as form, it's simply a condensed form of energy. Because all of the energy comprises a singular unified field, all seemingly separate energy forms are fundamentally one-with the ocean of energy that gives rise to those forms. This idea gets rid of matter altogether as something substantive, and substitutes the idea of energetic interactions of both compressed and dispersed energy within the same field. Because Source is infinite and unified, non-locality rules. This concept explains the "download" phenomena often associated with kensho as well as "miracles," OOBE's, and all other similar non-local events. Scientists are already learning that conscious thoughts can activate mechanical equipment, and psychological phenomena, such as "folie a deux," are probably also a result of interacting energy systems. IOW, we don't have to discard brains, shifts in brain function, nervous systems, moons, and the entire world of form if we accept that that world is a world of intelligent energy manifesting however it manifests. This concept would probably even satisfy Tenka because it doesn't treat the world strictly as appearances, but rather as compressed/condensed forms of only one intelligent incomprehensible energy. If the wave/ocean analogy is good enough for Kabir, it's good enough for me. "......Because someone has made up the word 'wave,' do I have to distinguish it from water? There is a Secret One inside us; the planets in all the galaxies pass through his hands like beads. That is a string of beads one should look at with luminous eyes." ________________________________________ ".....Kabir saw (the truth) for fifteen seconds, and it made him a servant for life."
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Post by Gopal on Nov 11, 2018 13:56:45 GMT -5
Real in my book means existing in its own right. Individual appearances don't exist in their own right. In that sense, they are not real (screen metaphor). However, whatever manifests in whatever form can ever only be an extension of Source. In that sense, whatever manifests in whatever form is as real as it gets (wave/ocean metaphor). Agreed. The way I conceptualize what's going on is that Source is a field of intelligent energy, and when that energy manifests as form, it's simply a condensed form of energy. Because all of the energy comprises a singular unified field, all seemingly separate energy forms are fundamentally one-with the ocean of energy that gives rise to those forms. This idea gets rid of matter altogether as something substantive, and substitutes the idea of energetic interactions of both compressed and dispersed energy within the same field. Because Source is infinite and unified, non-locality rules. This concept explains the "download" phenomena often associated with kensho as well as "miracles," OOBE's, and all other similar non-local events. Scientists are already learning that conscious thoughts can activate mechanical equipment, and psychological phenomena, such as "folie a deux," are probably also a result of interacting energy systems. IOW, we don't have to discard brains, shifts in brain function, nervous systems, moons, and the entire world of form if we accept that that world is a world of intelligent energy manifesting however it manifests. This concept would probably even satisfy Tenka because it doesn't treat the world strictly as appearances, but rather as compressed/condensed forms of only one intelligent incomprehensible energy. If the wave/ocean analogy is good enough for Kabir, it's good enough for me. "......Because someone has made up the word 'wave,' do I have to distinguish it from water? There is a Secret One inside us; the planets in all the galaxies pass through his hands like beads. That is a string of beads one should look at with luminous eyes." ________________________________________ ".....Kabir saw (the truth) for fifteen seconds, and it made him a servant for life." You clearly believes in outer world. Happy believing objective reality!Yes very obviously Tenia would be happy with you.
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Post by zendancer on Nov 11, 2018 14:39:54 GMT -5
Agreed. The way I conceptualize what's going on is that Source is a field of intelligent energy, and when that energy manifests as form, it's simply a condensed form of energy. Because all of the energy comprises a singular unified field, all seemingly separate energy forms are fundamentally one-with the ocean of energy that gives rise to those forms. This idea gets rid of matter altogether as something substantive, and substitutes the idea of energetic interactions of both compressed and dispersed energy within the same field. Because Source is infinite and unified, non-locality rules. This concept explains the "download" phenomena often associated with kensho as well as "miracles," OOBE's, and all other similar non-local events. Scientists are already learning that conscious thoughts can activate mechanical equipment, and psychological phenomena, such as "folie a deux," are probably also a result of interacting energy systems. IOW, we don't have to discard brains, shifts in brain function, nervous systems, moons, and the entire world of form if we accept that that world is a world of intelligent energy manifesting however it manifests. This concept would probably even satisfy Tenka because it doesn't treat the world strictly as appearances, but rather as compressed/condensed forms of only one intelligent incomprehensible energy. If the wave/ocean analogy is good enough for Kabir, it's good enough for me. "......Because someone has made up the word 'wave,' do I have to distinguish it from water? There is a Secret One inside us; the planets in all the galaxies pass through his hands like beads. That is a string of beads one should look at with luminous eyes." ________________________________________ ".....Kabir saw (the truth) for fifteen seconds, and it made him a servant for life." You clearly believes in outer world. Happy believing objective reality!Yes very obviously Tenia would be happy with you. This doesn't have anything to do with beliefs; it's just a different way of thinking about the world of form. In silence these thoughts and any thoughts about appearances both disappear.
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Post by tenka on Nov 11, 2018 14:58:30 GMT -5
And the camouflage, isn't that, right? Not to be flip, and definitely not to play "gotcha'", but it seems to me you didn't relate it back and directly answer the original question. Perhaps you get a sense, from that, why E' goes to great lengths to disclaim that he makes any association with the word, "real". Real in my book means existing in its own right. Individual appearances don't exist in their own right. In that sense, they are not real (screen metaphor). However, whatever manifests in whatever form can ever only be an extension of Source. In that sense, whatever manifests in whatever form is as real as it gets (wave/ocean metaphor). This is the thing . This is the whole shebang regarding what appearances are . There cannot be just appearances when the appearances are what you are appearing . There is only what you are appearing . So appearances exist in there own right as much as what you are exists . If there is an appearance .. then there is no difference between that appearance and what you are appearing as . Obviously if we delve into other areas when we speak of appearances of our imagination, they don't exist in there own right . The steak is real because what you are is appearing as a cow .
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Post by bluey on Nov 11, 2018 15:02:24 GMT -5
Real in my book means existing in its own right. Individual appearances don't exist in their own right. In that sense, they are not real (screen metaphor). However, whatever manifests in whatever form can ever only be an extension of Source. In that sense, whatever manifests in whatever form is as real as it gets (wave/ocean metaphor). Agreed. The way I conceptualize what's going on is that Source is a field of intelligent energy, and when that energy manifests as form, it's simply a condensed form of energy. Because all of the energy comprises a singular unified field, all seemingly separate energy forms are fundamentally one-with the ocean of energy that gives rise to those forms. This idea gets rid of matter altogether as something substantive, and substitutes the idea of energetic interactions of both compressed and dispersed energy within the same field. Because Source is infinite and unified, non-locality rules. This concept explains the "download" phenomena often associated with kensho as well as "miracles," OOBE's, and all other similar non-local events. Scientists are already learning that conscious thoughts can activate mechanical equipment, and psychological phenomena, such as "folie a deux," are probably also a result of interacting energy systems. IOW, we don't have to discard brains, shifts in brain function, nervous systems, moons, and the entire world of form if we accept that that world is a world of intelligent energy manifesting however it manifests. This concept would probably even satisfy Tenka because it doesn't treat the world strictly as appearances, but rather as compressed/condensed forms of only one intelligent incomprehensible energy. If the wave/ocean analogy is good enough for Kabir, it's good enough for me. "......Because someone has made up the word 'wave,' do I have to distinguish it from water? There is a Secret One inside us; the planets in all the galaxies pass through his hands like beads. That is a string of beads one should look at with luminous eyes." ________________________________________ ".....Kabir saw (the truth) for fifteen seconds, and it made him a servant for life." Exactly. I'm meant to watching a film on Netflix as I promised people at work I would. But the posts on here are getting more interesting everytime I read them. Ok rogue one or Star Trek or Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy. That's what I'm being drawn to. Lol
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Post by justlikeyou on Nov 11, 2018 15:53:13 GMT -5
This doesn't have anything to do with beliefs; it's just a different way of thinking about the world of form. Yes, once we have seen the ocean the first time with our own eyes, it is no longer a belief that we hold about the ocean, in this respect anyway. In this case it becomes a wordless knowing on the part of the seer, arising out of a direct experience with the sea.
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