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Post by zendancer on May 10, 2015 18:28:54 GMT -5
I'm not enlightened. I've had a few brief experiences of being boundless, which altered my view of things. I have never had the super-mind-blowing experience that "fully realized masters" seem to have had. I'm reading David Carse's "Perfect Brilliant Stillness", and do not expect to ever have that type of experience. Has anyone here had an enlightenment experience, to where you can say you are now "enlightened"? Wholla: Many people on this forum have had cosmic-consciousness experiences, but except for rare circumstances, those kinds of experiences rarely lead, directly, to what the word "enlightenment" points to. The issue is far more subtle than what is sometimes imagined. If you asked people here to define enlightenment, you would probably get thirty different definitions. The most common definition would probably be "Self-realization." SR is the realization that personal selfhood is an illusion, and that what one IS is unimaginable, infinite, and whole. Other people would define it somewhat differently. Many of us would also consider freedom from the intellect as a major attribute of what the word "enlightenment" points to. In the Zen tradition enlightenment is considered to be just another piece of trash to throw away, so you would have a hard time finding any Zen people who would claim to be enlightened. When someone asked Zen Master Suzuki if he was enlightened, he replied, "You better ask my wife." Ha ha |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on May 10, 2015 23:28:14 GMT -5
zendancer: Are you doing Soto Zen, or Rinzai? (or someother?) I thought Rinzai Zen mandated a "confirming experience", while Soto Zen eschewed it. Moving between books and forums made me curious. In books, the people are usually very blunt about their "enlightenment", while on forums people seem careful to not make any claims. If I was certain I had "made the trip", as Robert Rose called it, I expect I would be blunt and open about it, unless something about the experience precluded that. I realize that making the claim to be "enlightened" is like making the claim that you are "cool", with the claim likely being invalidated by the act of making it. The most interesting Zen dude I encountered was Zen Master Bankei. That dude cleaned house. After enlightenment, or as he usually said, realizing the unborn, he walked the country going from monastery to monastery. He knew when people were enlightened, or not (but claimed enlightenment). He cut the dudes down to size who claimed to be enlightened but didn't know enough to know they weren't enlightened. Cool dude. |
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Post by zendancer on May 11, 2015 10:52:08 GMT -5
zendancer: Are you doing Soto Zen, or Rinzai? (or someother?) I thought Rinzai Zen mandated a "confirming experience", while Soto Zen eschewed it. Moving between books and forums made me curious. In books, the people are usually very blunt about their "enlightenment", while on forums people seem careful to not make any claims. If I was certain I had "made the trip", as Robert Rose called it, I expect I would be blunt and open about it, unless something about the experience precluded that. I realize that making the claim to be "enlightened" is like making the claim that you are "cool", with the claim likely being invalidated by the act of making it. I ceased being involved with any Zen tradition about 15 years ago when this body/mind's search for understanding came to an end. During the time that I was involved, it was in the Korean Rinzai lineage, which is somewhat different than the Japanese Rinzai tradition. Japanese ZM's talk more about "confirmatory experiences" than do Korean ZM's. I personally know a lot of ZM's, and I've met dozens of ZM's, and I don't think I ever heard one mention confirmatory experiences. They often talk about unusual things that happen to people who intensely pursue meditation, but the idea of "progress toward any goal" is usually eschewed (because it would reinforce the erroneous idea that there is a person who can make progress). On this forum you will hear people explain that there is a significant difference between experiences and realizations, and you will not hear much about enlightenment, per se, because the word carries so many erroneous connotations (sorta like the word "God"). I suspect that a majority of people on this forum would consider Self-realization a realization rather than an experience--something that happens instantly--but the informing of mind and further aspects of Self discovery can continue after SR. You are correct about the idea of making personal claims of attainment. If a body/mind realizes that personal selfhood is imaginary--an illusion--it would be unlikely to make any claims about any personal attainment. This is why the Buddha called enlightenment a "non-attained attainment." If, for example, you realized that what you are is infinite rather than a separate entity, and that you were never born or will never die, and that if the entire universe disappeared, you would still be here, you would be unlikely to make any claims regarding any kind of self-centered attainment. If you realized that there is only oneness, and that what you are IS that oneness, can you see how that would change your outlook? |
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Post by jay17 on May 11, 2015 18:51:44 GMT -5
I am...in the context of this form of enlightenment.... "He who knows others is wise. He who knows himself is enlightened." - Lao Tzu Has anyone here had an enlightenment experience, to where you can say you are now "enlightened"? I have not had an enlightenment experience. Have never sought one, and never will. I know myself, therefore am fulfilled and have no need to obtain it. |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on May 12, 2015 10:30:43 GMT -5
I ceased being involved with any Zen tradition about 15 years ago when this body/mind's search for understanding came to an end. During the time that I was involved, it was in the Korean Rinzai lineage, which is somewhat different than the Japanese Rinzai tradition. Japanese ZM's talk more about "confirmatory experiences" than do Korean ZM's. I personally know a lot of ZM's, and I've met dozens of ZM's, and I don't think I ever heard one mention confirmatory experiences. They often talk about unusual things that happen to people who intensely pursue meditation, but the idea of "progress toward any goal" is usually eschewed (because it would reinforce the erroneous idea that there is a person who can make progress). On this forum you will hear people explain that there is a significant difference between experiences and realizations, and you will not hear much about enlightenment, per se, because the word carries so many erroneous connotations (sorta like the word "God"). I suspect that a majority of people on this forum would consider Self-realization a realization rather than an experience--something that happens instantly--but the informing of mind and further aspects of Self discovery can continue after SR. You are correct about the idea of making personal claims of attainment. If a body/mind realizes that personal selfhood is imaginary--an illusion--it would be unlikely to make any claims about any personal attainment. This is why the Buddha called enlightenment a "non-attained attainment." If, for example, you realized that what you are is infinite rather than a separate entity, and that you were never born or will never die, and that if the entire universe disappeared, you would still be here, you would be unlikely to make any claims regarding any kind of self-centered attainment. If you realized that there is only oneness, and that what you are IS that oneness, can you see how that would change your outlook? When I was about 17, I asked myself the question, "If I know I am self-aware, and I know I am not separate from reality, why don't I consider my self-awareness to be the universe's self-awareness?" Thirty years later, I still don't know, though I may be a little closer due to the occasional burst of interest. I understand this intellectually, understand it a little in my heart, and do not understand it at all in my bones. If I knew what you are saying in my bones, I expect I would be "enlightened", and I can see how at that time I would not consider that there was a "me" to be enlightened. If someone asked me if I was enlightened, it is hard for me to imagine my response, though I suspect I would say "For the purposes of this conversation, yes". If I started going on about how none of us really existed, and we were all the universe, I would expect them to bash me in the face. As I approach 50, my feeling is, "What the x do I have to do to finish this?", and leads me to direct questions like "Who here is enlightened?". When I was about 40, I had one 5 second "glimpse", and that has been it, so far. That came after I made 2 lists, one of all the things that had to be true for reality to exist, and another for all the things that had to be true for consciousness to exist, and realized they were the same lists. I saw (wearing my arm-chair scientist-hat), that reality could only be perceived against the unreal, which was consciousness/awareness of <insert dream object>. My "science" was probably complete hooey, but the temporary change in perspective seemed to match things I had read about. My approach to zen/enlightenment stuff has been to get very interested in it every couple of years, so I have not put much time or effort in to it compared to a serious "seeker". I've been trying to push things lately, though it is disheartening when people who clearly "made the trip" say things like,"The only thing holding you back, is your desire to move forward.", or say that whether you meditate for 5 minutes or 50 years has zero impact on your chances to "make the trip". They often say, "It is a 100% complete accident", which begs the question of why try at all. The "confirmatory experiences" I was talking about is called "Dai Kensho", while googling for an example of it, I found an old post by a crazy guy who said this "Dai kensho occurred fifteen years later while hiking up a mountain in Colorado. It was only then, after forty-five years of searching for the truth, that I saw through the illusion of personal selfhood completely and discovered that I am "what is." "  I am currently trying to put together a "program" for myself, perhaps I can establish a habit before my interests change. My next posts will probably be about that, i.e., what should I be doing right now? This thread was kind of a prequel, so I know who to ask. Aside from Robert Rose's "Law of the Ladder", I have not seen very many people suggesting asking fellow lost souls for directions. wholla, first, just disregard the underlined stuff, it's a distraction and just not very helpful. I guess you played the game of hot and cold when you were a kid? An object was picked by one person and the other person had to figure out what the object was. If you got closer, the person who picked the object had to say, hotter. Further away, colder. There is a way, in the next five minutes, to be able to tell for yourself if you are getting "hotter or colder". I'm sure you've come across the fact that attention and awareness are significant is this matter you describe in your post. For simplicity let's deal with attention (working with awareness would be in a similar manner, so when I say attention, keep in mind you can later try these same things using awareness). Part of this "five minute thing" is to be able to verify for yourself if these words have any meaning for you, or not. You need first make a distinction between thinking (via words) and attention. (Because your attention is separate from thoughts, feelings and bodily sensations and actions). If attention is the key, what is occurring concerning your attention? Consider, where is your attention at any particular time? Our attention is usually captured and held by some thought, feeling or object or action in the world. So, just see where your attention happens to be, on, or captured by some internal thought, or some external person or object. This is what you can take five minutes and discover for yourself. For simplicity sake, look at a clock and every change of the minute, ask yourself, where is my attention? (In principle, you would ask this every ten seconds, and if you have a clock with a second hand, you can do just this, but actually, in principle, every second, maybe, some day. But of course, you don't have to actually ask yourself, verbally, that's sort of "training wheels"). So, again, first make this distinction between attention, and that upon which it rests or is captured by. And then once you clarify this distinction, if attention is the way to these things you write about in your post, maybe you will see a little why there has been very little progress in this matter. But if you find that little paragraph at all significant (what it points to, IOW, actually do what it says, not just think about what it says), just keep trying it, and keep on trying it. (Maybe eventually you learn to live through your attention instead of through thoughts, feelings, actions and those in relation to exterior events, but that's also what you have to decided is of value, or not. And of course, first means just that, IOW, there's more). First you have to row a little boat. |
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Post by laughter on May 12, 2015 14:58:54 GMT -5
When I was about 40, I had one 5 second "glimpse", and that has been it, so far. That came after I made 2 lists, one of all the things that had to be true for reality to exist, and another for all the things that had to be true for consciousness to exist, and realized they were the same lists. Can you go into a little detail about what you mean by each of "reality" and "consciousness" here? Were you comparing the idea of you as a physical object in a world of other physical objects ("reality") with the idea of you as a singular consciousness shared by everyone else? I saw (wearing my arm-chair scientist-hat), that reality could only be perceived against the unreal, which was consciousness/awareness of <insert dream object>. My "science" was probably complete hooey, but the temporary change in perspective seemed to match things I had read about. The intellect comes to these paradoxes from many different routes. What do you think this might mean? |
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Post by veter on May 13, 2015 1:14:24 GMT -5
I'm not enlightened. I've had a few brief experiences of being boundless, which altered my view of things. I have never had the super-mind-blowing experience that "fully realized masters" seem to have had. I'm reading David Carse's "Perfect Brilliant Stillness", and do not expect to ever have that type of experience. Has anyone here had an enlightenment experience, to where you can say you are now "enlightened"? "Who" can't be enlightened  Consciousness wakes up from dream about being "who" |
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Post by laughter on May 13, 2015 3:23:01 GMT -5
Can you go into a little detail about what you mean by each of "reality" and "consciousness" here? Were you comparing the idea of you as a physical object in a world of other physical objects ("reality") with the idea of you as a singular consciousness shared by everyone else? The intellect comes to these paradoxes from many different routes. What do you think this might mean? At the time, I considered "reality" a physical construct, such as the stars and planets, separate from life. I also considered "consciousness" to be a purely non-physical construct, like a synergistic construct that was an accidental byproduct of the complexity of the human brain. A probable mirage. My "discovery", of which I forgot my original logic, was along the lines that "nothing is real unless it can be observed, which requires an observer with perspective", and "consciousness requires something real to be conscious of, which requires an observer with perspective". The "ah-ha" moment was when I realized that reality and consciousness had the same requirements of observer, observed, and perspective. I realize this is "bro-science", but it worked for me at the time. It removed my question for why there was reality and consciousness, with the answer that they arose together, and were effectively one. From what I am learning on this site, and more recent books, is that they are more likely actually one. I had the 5 second "global feeling" when I stopped wondering why consciousness existed. Back then, I was not thinking about other people's consciousnesses, so that did not play a part. Hm, what does it mean that the intellect encounters paradoxes from different routes? I'm not sure what you mean. It could mean that the intellect will always arrive at paradox, but I don't know if that is what you are hinting at. What you described there in comparing the idea of physical reality with the notion of idealist reality was for me a sort of unconscious koan that I unknowingly worked for several decades. "bro-science?"  ... It's a popularized expression free of the complications of the formal underlying physical models written in the language of mathematics, but the understanding you expressed matches well with what I learned by study of the subject. Do you notice any similarity between this idea of how physicality requires the conscious observer, which in turn requires physicality, on one hand, and one of the more prominent Buddhist sutras, on the other? Yes, the intellect will always arrive at a paradox if it's used to contemplate existential questions honestly and with any depth. What does that imply about the intellect as a tool for existential investigation? In terms of yourself as an individual in the world, which direction does the intellect point? Outwardly, toward the objective, or inwardly toward the subjective? |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on May 13, 2015 8:55:51 GMT -5
wholla, first, just disregard the underlined stuff, it's a distraction and just not very helpful. I guess you played the game of hot and cold when you were a kid? An object was picked by one person and the other person had to figure out what the object was. If you got closer, the person who picked the object had to say, hotter. Further away, colder. There is a way, in the next five minutes, to be able to tell for yourself if you are getting "hotter or colder". I'm sure you've come across the fact that attention and awareness are significant is this matter you describe in your post. For simplicity let's deal with attention (working with awareness would be in a similar manner, so when I say attention, keep in mind you can later try these same things using awareness). Part of this "five minute thing" is to be able to verify for yourself if these words have any meaning for you, or not. You need first make a distinction between thinking (via words) and attention. (Because your attention is separate from thoughts, feelings and bodily sensations and actions). If attention is the key, what is occurring concerning your attention? Consider, where is your attention at any particular time? Our attention is usually captured and held by some thought, feeling or object or action in the world. So, just see where your attention happens to be, on, or captured by some internal thought, or some external person or object. This is what you can take five minutes and discover for yourself. For simplicity sake, look at a clock and every change of the minute, ask yourself, where is my attention? (In principle, you would ask this every ten seconds, and if you have a clock with a second hand, you can do just this, but actually, in principle, every second, maybe, some day. But of course, you don't have to actually ask yourself, verbally, that's sort of "training wheels"). So, again, first make this distinction between attention, and that upon which it rests or is captured by. And then once you clarify this distinction, if attention is the way to these things you write about in your post, maybe you will see a little why there has been very little progress in this matter. But if you find that little paragraph at all significant (what it points to, IOW, actually do what it says, not just think about what it says), just keep trying it, and keep on trying it. (Maybe eventually you learn to live through your attention instead of through thoughts, feelings, actions and those in relation to exterior events, but that's also what you have to decided is of value, or not. And of course, first means just that, IOW, there's more). First you have to row a little boat. I had to look up "IOW", I guessed it meant "I Often Wonder", which led to a really confusing paragraph, lol. So you are saying that awareness and attention are the same thing, and that they are often focused on a thought - and at a certain interval, I should ask myself, "What thought is my attention/awareness focused on right now?" ? I want to make sure I understand the words before I try the experiment. I didn't say attention and awareness are the same thing. Attention and awareness are not the same. I didn't say they are often focused on a thought (but this could be the case. But yes, this is they type of distinction I'm asking you to make. But what I actually said I put in bold and underlined. There is a difference). I was trying to keep it simple. It's just an invitation to explore exactly what is going on. I said try exploring attention first. (At a later time you can explore awareness). Just explore the relationship of attention to thought, the relationship of attention to sensations, the relationship of attention to what the body does, (I find that emotions are more illusive). This is something you can try anywhere, any time. As an example, right now your attention is on these words on your computer screen. |
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Post by jay17 on May 13, 2015 14:07:34 GMT -5
I am...in the context of this form of enlightenment.... "He who knows others is wise. He who knows himself is enlightened." - Lao Tzu I have not had an enlightenment experience. Have never sought one, and never will. I know myself, therefore am fulfilled and have no need to obtain it. Jay, how did you transition from not knowing who you were, to knowing who you were? If you don't mind me asking. How does anyone get to deeply\intimately\truly know a person? Via an open and honest relationship. By relating openly and honestly with that person. The ability i use to comprehend\understand the information shared... ...Contemplation - observation('still mind' looking and listening) and thinking\reasoning. Attitude towards the person - no condemnation, which is compassion, which is love, which includes full acceptance of all that the person is. |
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Post by enigma on May 14, 2015 0:46:34 GMT -5
I am...in the context of this form of enlightenment.... "He who knows others is wise. He who knows himself is enlightened." - Lao Tzu I have not had an enlightenment experience. Have never sought one, and never will. I know myself, therefore am fulfilled and have no need to obtain it. Jay, how did you transition from not knowing who you were, to knowing who you were? If you don't mind me asking. Jay thinks he is a mind/body/person. |
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Post by jay17 on May 14, 2015 4:38:25 GMT -5
Jay, how did you transition from not knowing who you were, to knowing who you were? If you don't mind me asking. Jay thinks he is a mind/body/person. And you think you are not. I am profoundly at peace and enjoying my life, if you are too, then i see no problem for either of us. |
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Post by zendancer on May 14, 2015 7:26:34 GMT -5
Jay thinks he is a mind/body/person. And you think you are not. I am profoundly at peace and enjoying my life, if you are too, then i see no problem for either of us. I don't see a problem either. Peace of mind is a wonderful thing. |
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2015 11:55:02 GMT -5
And you think you are not. I am profoundly at peace and enjoying my life, if you are too, then i see no problem for either of us. I don't see a problem either. Peace of mind is a wonderful thing. Peace of mind is the byproduct of Living ones Life fully in the presence of this moment. It is the allowing of Life to unfold as it will, without an identity associated with a conditioned mind. |
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Post by jay17 on May 14, 2015 15:06:37 GMT -5
I don't see a problem either. Peace of mind is a wonderful thing. Peace of mind is the byproduct of Living ones Life fully in the presence of this moment. It is the allowing of Life to unfold as it will, without an identity associated with a conditioned mind. I assume those are your personal conclusions derived from your personal experiences. From my experiences...peace within my mind\soul is the result of fully accepting\acknowledging every type of situation experienced or imaginable, including the diverse spectrum of thoughts and feelings i produce in response, with being aware of my abilities, and the freedom to use them, to change that which i personally judge\conclude as non beneficial to my well being, be it something separate from me, something external to my being or, something within my self. This 'conditioned mind' you speak of that you have concluded the best way to deal with it is to disassociate yourself from it...i understand... that is one way of dealing with a problem...Denial. Long before i ventured onto the Eastern philosophies path, i had unknowingly embarked on a different path...one of accepting and transforming the weaknesses, flaws, damage and wounds of my mind\soul, these non-beneficial self harming- self condemning conditions. Suicide is a glitchy old thing. It is my understanding that the most common reason why people choose or contemplate suicide is they can no longer bear the immense pain caused by whatever problem(s) they have that they cannot resolve. A person desperately desires the pain to stop, and suicide is extremely effective in accomplishing this. But there is an ever so slight glitch in that path. The person may have successfully stopped all suffering, but they are no longer alive to enjoy a pain free existence. Suicide is - to stop self from feeling pain, you remove your self from the situation. It's a quick solution, a 'path of least resistance', and the cessation of pain is immediate. This is why, at times, suicide is rationally justified as a viable course of action....i know But what the person is really seeking to obtain, is to remain alive without any pain. They seek to remove the pain from their life, while keeping the self, and that's the harder road to travel...i know. Suicide is - to stop self from feeling pain, you remove your self from the situation. A healed life is - to stop self from feeling pain, you remove your pain from the situation. The latter is the harder road to travel, but the result is worth it. it is worth dedicating your whole being to. Suicide's result is - no pain, but no life. A healing journey life's result is - no pain, plus a wondrous life. So i see there's two main ways to deal with non beneficial conditioning... remove oneself from it, or remove it from the self. I discovered i was on the latter path, and now i have a most wondrous identity, though it took me a coupla decades to produce it. |
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Consciousness wakes up from dream about being "who" 
... It's a popularized expression free of the complications of the formal underlying physical models written in the language of mathematics, but the understanding you expressed matches well with what I learned by study of the subject.