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Beliefs
Apr 25, 2015 11:32:50 GMT -5
Post by laughter on Apr 25, 2015 11:32:50 GMT -5
Yes, it points to the indivisible nature of what presents to our senses and what it is that we are. As veter pointed out, in seeing/saying "One", there are two, which is why not two can only point indirectly at what is ineffable and isn't subject to apprehension by conceptual structure. At face value, our senses report a world of clear distinction, division and limitation, and as not two doesn't point "to" or define a "what" or a "where", and as what it refers to indirectly is indescribable, it's not intellectually defensible. This isn't to say that people can't form beliefs based on intellectually indefensible ideas -- there are quite obviously many examples of that. But the pointer of not two is at the root of an extensive complex of culture involving practices, history, art and even direct teachings. What these all have in common is completely anathema to belief, and that's the admonition not to take any idea on faith, but to investigate any and all ideas and sensations for oneself to ascertain how one is oriented to them. I have a somewhat related thing in my mind. When I first joined my Sufi web group I had some depression and anxiety problems. At that time I had absolutely no idea about why they were discussing "personal self". I was only listening to t heir talks like "you are *already* supported by the universe, otherwise you wouldn't be living" and feeling some relief. Much later I began to wonder about 'self', began to look at self instead of problems & attractions of life.. What I am saying (again) is that a belief about self is quite unlikely to be held.. It seems to me, you either turn towards and look at the issue, or not. The Christian analog to that is what Jesus said in Luke about the "lilies of the field" and the ravens. That's an invitation to notice the difference between what we want, and what we are. What we desire, and what we need. Lot's of people have a sort of baseline anxiety, an existential dread, that's related to identifying with what changes, and that's a specific example of how our belief about self directly influences our ongoing experience of life. If someone takes themselves to be the body that grows old and dies or the mind that often sheds old ideas for new and often forgets the past, then what they believe they are is constantly subject to external threat, the ravages of time, and ultimately, annihilation. In turning toward this issue and looking at it, the intellect is of limited use, as are our emotional reactions. This limitation is what is at the foundation of the prescriptions to meditate, to quiesce the intellect, to let the mind settle down, and relax and open up to the world in an experience of life relatively unfettered by abstract conceptualizing about it.
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Beliefs
Apr 25, 2015 13:48:15 GMT -5
Post by jay17 on Apr 25, 2015 13:48:15 GMT -5
Yep, the intellect\mind...then it's activated to process all the incoming data from sight, hearing, feeling, tasting, smelling. What the hell is up with people who have such an aversion to their minds. Because it's activation and translation of the data are not necessary. The body can see, hear, feel, taste, smell and move with acute precision without such interference or hindrance. Please to show me how you can hear, feel, taste, smell and move ...without mind. Perhaps state what part of your being is responsible for processing the incoming data from those sensors, the part that is aware of the external realm via the sensors, and then interprets\processes the incoming data into recognizable data which the self then utilises to produce calculated responses to relate to said external realm.
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Post by zin on Apr 25, 2015 13:50:32 GMT -5
I have a somewhat related thing in my mind. When I first joined my Sufi web group I had some depression and anxiety problems. At that time I had absolutely no idea about why they were discussing "personal self". I was only listening to t heir talks like "you are *already* supported by the universe, otherwise you wouldn't be living" and feeling some relief. Much later I began to wonder about 'self', began to look at self instead of problems & attractions of life.. What I am saying (again) is that a belief about self is quite unlikely to be held.. It seems to me, you either turn towards and look at the issue, or not. The Christian analog to that is what Jesus said in Luke about the "lilies of the field" and the ravens. That's an invitation to notice the difference between what we want, and what we are. What we desire, and what we need. Lot's of people have a sort of baseline anxiety, an existential dread, that's related to identifying with what changes, and that's a specific example of how our belief about self directly influences our ongoing experience of life. If someone takes themselves to be the body that grows old and dies or the mind that often sheds old ideas for new and often forgets the past, then what they believe they are is constantly subject to external threat, the ravages of time, and ultimately, annihilation. In turning toward this issue and looking at it, the intellect is of limited use, as are our emotional reactions. This limitation is what is at the foundation of the prescriptions to meditate, to quiesce the intellect, to let the mind settle down, and relax and open up to the world in an experience of life relatively unfettered by abstract conceptualizing about it. A few times I saw that some too-good-to-be-true things are true .
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Beliefs
Apr 25, 2015 14:30:52 GMT -5
Post by zendancer on Apr 25, 2015 14:30:52 GMT -5
Because it's activation and translation of the data are not necessary. The body can see, hear, feel, taste, smell and move with acute precision without such interference or hindrance. Please to show me how you can hear, feel, taste, smell and move ...without mind. Perhaps state what part of your being is responsible for processing the incoming data from those sensors, the part that is aware of the external realm via the sensors, and then interprets\processes the incoming data into recognizable data which the self then utilises to produce calculated responses to relate to said external realm. Jay: If you wanted to learn to look at the world without thinking/imagining/reflecting/fantasizing/cognizing/judging/discriminating/etc., you could certainly do so, and then you would discover many fascinating things about human existence, but you say you have no interest in that, and you apparently don't believe it's possible. Why, then, waste time interacting with people whose interest lies in what lies beyond the intellect?
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Beliefs
Apr 25, 2015 15:32:59 GMT -5
Post by jay17 on Apr 25, 2015 15:32:59 GMT -5
Please to show me how you can hear, feel, taste, smell and move ...without mind. Perhaps state what part of your being is responsible for processing the incoming data from those sensors, the part that is aware of the external realm via the sensors, and then interprets\processes the incoming data into recognizable data which the self then utilises to produce calculated responses to relate to said external realm. Jay: If you wanted to learn to look at the world without thinking/imagining/reflecting/fantasizing/cognizing/judging/discriminating/etc., you could certainly do so, and then you would discover many fascinating things about human existence, but you say you have no interest in that, and you apparently don't believe it's possible. Why, then, waste time interacting with people whose interest lies in what lies beyond the intellect? Please quote me where i have said, i have no interest in observing existence without thinking/imagining/reflecting/fantasizing/cognizing/judging/discriminating/etc. And when you can't, then you have two choices - re-examine all your accumulated thoughts about me, or don't, and retain thinking you have observed and concluded correctly. Perhaps if you re-examine you might discover the point of disagreement has nothing to do with 'still mind' observation of existence.
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Deleted
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Beliefs
Apr 25, 2015 15:40:27 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2015 15:40:27 GMT -5
Because it's activation and translation of the data are not necessary. The body can see, hear, feel, taste, smell and move with acute precision without such interference or hindrance. Please to show me how you can hear, feel, taste, smell and move ...without mind. Perhaps state what part of your being is responsible for processing the incoming data from those sensors, the part that is aware of the external realm via the sensors, and then interprets\processes the incoming data into recognizable data which the self then utilises to produce calculated responses to relate to said external realm. Through a medium such as the internet.. ?
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Beliefs
Apr 25, 2015 15:49:10 GMT -5
Post by jay17 on Apr 25, 2015 15:49:10 GMT -5
Please to show me how you can hear, feel, taste, smell and move ...without mind. Perhaps state what part of your being is responsible for processing the incoming data from those sensors, the part that is aware of the external realm via the sensors, and then interprets\processes the incoming data into recognizable data which the self then utilises to produce calculated responses to relate to said external realm. Through a medium such as the internet.. ? I do have the capacity to see words. ~joyfully moans~ imagine a writer who can't see words...how is that even possible. Just as possible for an individual who can't see themself i suppose...haaaaaaaaa!
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Beliefs
Apr 25, 2015 15:50:39 GMT -5
Post by figgles on Apr 25, 2015 15:50:39 GMT -5
Jay: If you wanted to learn to look at the world without thinking/imagining/reflecting/fantasizing/cognizing/judging/discriminating/etc., you could certainly do so, and then you would discover many fascinating things about human existence, but you say you have no interest in that, and you apparently don't believe it's possible. Why, then, waste time interacting with people whose interest lies in what lies beyond the intellect? Please quote me where i have said, i have no interest in observing existence without thinking/imagining/reflecting/fantasizing/cognizing/judging/discriminating/etc. And when you can't, then you have two choices - re-examine all your accumulated thoughts about me, or don't, and retain thinking you have observed and concluded correctly. Perhaps if you re-examine you might discover the point of disagreement has nothing to do with 'still mind' observation of existence. hehe...yeah, The blatant display of preconceived notions and faulty assumptions regarding those here, like yourself, who dare to challenge, indicates that the absence of minding and intellectual engagement with ideas that so often gets poo-pooed around here, is evidently much easier to talk about than actually practice.
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Beliefs
Apr 25, 2015 15:59:58 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2015 15:59:58 GMT -5
Through a medium such as the internet.. ? I do have the capacity to see words. ~joyfully moans~ imagine a writer who can't see words...how is that even possible. Just as possible for an individual who can't see themself i suppose...haaaaaaaaa! Do you have the capacity to feel words?
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Beliefs
Apr 25, 2015 19:59:21 GMT -5
Post by tzujanli on Apr 25, 2015 19:59:21 GMT -5
I do have the capacity to see words. ~joyfully moans~ imagine a writer who can't see words...how is that even possible. Just as possible for an individual who can't see themself i suppose...haaaaaaaaa! Do you have the capacity to feel words? I do, yes!
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Post by tzujanli on Apr 25, 2015 20:37:02 GMT -5
Because it's activation and translation of the data are not necessary. The body can see, hear, feel, taste, smell and move with acute precision without such interference or hindrance. Please to show me how you can hear, feel, taste, smell and move ...without mind.Perhaps state what part of your being is responsible for processing the incoming data from those sensors, the part that is aware of the external realm via the sensors, and then interprets\processes the incoming data into recognizable data which the self then utilises to produce calculated responses to relate to said external realm. There is not a human condition that is 'without mind', except for certain malfunctions of the physical apparatus, you cannot separate yourself from mind.. it is possible to suspend the mind's influence/distortion of input, and i suspect that is the intended reference.. The clarity of a still mind's awareness bypasses the mind's categorization and mental filing process, the information inherent with experience is integrated with the experiencer's being.. such that there is no doubt, no hesitation, no rummaging through mental filing cabinets and comparison evaluations, that experiencer is naturally integrated with what is happening, mind is still, bright, alive, alert, fully present and engaged with the happening.. life become a continuum of fluid dynamism, an integrated relationship between experiencer/experience/experienced, parts and whole, happening.. One of my teachers explained that if you 'see the door open' and then try to get to it to get in, you were already too late.. you have to 'be there when it opens'.. the mind that is 'thinking' is already too late.. successful athletes, warriors, surfers, lovers all understand this even if they can't articulate it.. contemplation is preparation for opportunity, and success is when preparation meets opportunity without dependence on hindrances that " interprets\processes the incoming data into recognizable data which the self then utilises to produce calculated responses to relate to said external realm", that process is 'already too late'..
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Beliefs
Apr 25, 2015 22:59:45 GMT -5
Post by jay17 on Apr 25, 2015 22:59:45 GMT -5
I do have the capacity to see words. ~joyfully moans~ imagine a writer who can't see words...how is that even possible. Just as possible for an individual who can't see themself i suppose...haaaaaaaaa! Do you have the capacity to feel words? Please to show me how you can hear, feel, taste, smell and move ...without mind. Perhaps state what part of your being is responsible for processing the incoming data from those sensors, the part that is aware of the external realm via the sensors, and then interprets\processes the incoming data into recognizable data which the self then utilises to produce calculated responses to relate to said external realm.
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Beliefs
Apr 25, 2015 23:36:11 GMT -5
Post by lolly on Apr 25, 2015 23:36:11 GMT -5
I think there's a kind of status thing Ok, cuz you come to a place like this, and they kinda test out who is SR or not SR, then we get the SR few as opposed to not SR, all with a context of no-self, so actually, with contradictions abound, SR doesn't actually answer anything such as 'it's not two'... For quite a time I didn't understand that the main subject was SR on this forum (and was it always so, I don't know).. I am not SR and don't have much to say about it, so I write different stuff when I write.. Maybe it looks like a limiting thing that things are mostly evaluated according to SR standard.. but as I said (about myself), you can still talk what you want? or do I talk irrelevantly now?.. At the same time I'm saying that to direct attention to SR as a subject is good (imo) because I don't come across this attitude in too many places. For me nonduality does not negate "we're alive now", or does not negate body-mind experience. But I must say that *I don't think about everything I hear*, like I don't think about words like "illusion" "appearance" "nonvolition"... For me nonduality simply points to a deeper place in us which all of us share and can 'live from'. Well, it's not the main subject on the forum but it is the criteria of the status quo, so we do have to continually assert SR or nit SR to maintain status positions.
I'm not SR or SR and I don't have any answers nor do I pretend to, and I don't even 'point', because I can see how inane it becomes when we claim that our beliefs are not our beliefs, which is what this thread does.
Well, we are alive now, so sooner we stop worrying about ones and twos the sooner we can get back to life as it is.
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Beliefs
Apr 26, 2015 2:06:26 GMT -5
zin likes this
Post by laughter on Apr 26, 2015 2:06:26 GMT -5
The Christian analog to that is what Jesus said in Luke about the "lilies of the field" and the ravens. That's an invitation to notice the difference between what we want, and what we are. What we desire, and what we need. Lot's of people have a sort of baseline anxiety, an existential dread, that's related to identifying with what changes, and that's a specific example of how our belief about self directly influences our ongoing experience of life. If someone takes themselves to be the body that grows old and dies or the mind that often sheds old ideas for new and often forgets the past, then what they believe they are is constantly subject to external threat, the ravages of time, and ultimately, annihilation. In turning toward this issue and looking at it, the intellect is of limited use, as are our emotional reactions. This limitation is what is at the foundation of the prescriptions to meditate, to quiesce the intellect, to let the mind settle down, and relax and open up to the world in an experience of life relatively unfettered by abstract conceptualizing about it. A few times I saw that some too-good-to-be-true things are true . I'm pretty sure I know what you mean by that. What I know for certain is that the me from 7 years ago would be very very surprised if he had a metaphysical conversation with the me of today.
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Deleted
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Beliefs
Apr 26, 2015 3:27:33 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2015 3:27:33 GMT -5
Do you have the capacity to feel words? Please to show me how you can hear, feel, taste, smell and move ...without mind. Perhaps state what part of your being is responsible for processing the incoming data from those sensors, the part that is aware of the external realm via the sensors, and then interprets\processes the incoming data into recognizable data which the self then utilises to produce calculated responses to relate to said external realm. Through a medium such as the internet.. ?
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