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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2015 18:29:01 GMT -5
My uncle died yesterday and I was talking to my mum about it last night. She was quite upset and I could feel the emotional pain of it, I felt sad talking to her. I could see the sadness coming up like a wave and could feel it moving through me. I didn’t need to do anything with the sadness other than know it, and just allow it to be there. Sadness is ok, it doesn’t need a resolution. After the call finished the pain subsided and there was no residue. Suffering (for me) is more associated with resistance and mental fabrications, its secondary to the initial pain. If I got stuck on thinking that it was unfair that he died, or that he died too soon, or that I’m too upset about it all, or not upset enough,. then I’m going beyond the primary pain and into the realms of suffering. Why I see the world as being perfect (but understand that it doesn’t feel that way all the time) is that I’ve had the insight into seeing pain as being distinct from suffering. I don’t see that pain is wrong. Pain is just pain. You do what you do in the moment in response to it. Having the insight doesn’t mean I’m completely free of suffering, I just know more about whats going on, and when suffering does happen I’m more likely to come out of it sooner than I otherwise would, because I can see the churn more clearly and I can see that its not actually helpful or necessary. Though the dictionary treats 'pain' and 'suffering' synonymously, like you i have also discovered there are two types of pain\suffering...beneficial and non beneficial. All pain\suffering felt in our human form is self created. Though i have noticed a trend in society to use the term 'pain' as the natural and acceptable response to difficult\harmful situations, cut your finger\a loved one dies, and the normal\natural\acceptable\healthy response it to feel pain...and the term 'suffering' is used to define, consciously or unconsciously, mentally constructed harmful conclusions about the event or one's responses to it. And in relation to our discussion, one such response is to resist the consequences of the situation. As you shared, you felt pain as you talked to your mum about the death of your uncle, and say your mum strongly resisted the fact that he is gone, she could remain in pain\suffering for years, resisting to accept the reality of the situation. Seems to me it's normal\natural\healthy to feel pain\suffering in pain at the loss of someone, due to soul connection\love of the other, the soul is torn asunder, of course it's going to hurt. But it seems unhealthy\non beneficial to remain in pain for years due to resisting the reality and wishing he did not die. It seems to me, the human being, equipped with a pain warning system, equally has a built in healing system. The soul is torn due to connection with other soul ripped away, but the human being will then set out to heal that damage, motivated by self love, but can't if self constructed damaging thoughts are daily manifested within, thus the wound remains open, with the subsequent pain\suffering. An imprecise way i can express it is, beneficial pain\suffering is caused by a normal healthy response to some type of damage of undisclosed origin, while non beneficial pain\suffering is the self consciously or unconsciously inflicting more damage upon oneself within the current damage experience. Thus one area to examine is why does one inflict non beneficial damage upon oneself...i've been exploring this for a while and i am confident it's related to the level of self love a person has. Took me years, but i now profoundly appreciate pain\suffering, the human being's warning system. So yeah, i do see a difference, but it's not in the two different terms because i see them as synonymous. The difference i see - is a specific pain\suffering beneficial or not. And that requires me to assess every moment that contains pain\suffering. Contemplation, examination, self exploration to determine what mechanisms within are producing a particular pain\suffering, and then using the same abilities, determining what is beneficial and what isn't, and then consciously changing elements within myself to repair the problem that was causing the beneficial 'warning system' pain, or that which was producing the non beneficial 'not required' pain\suffering. The majority of the excruciating pain\suffering i produced and felt, for the first 2-3 years from my much loved wife leaving me, i can confidently say was healthy\beneficial...the 40+ years of hell i suffered from chronic depression, anxiety, and several other disorders...the majority of that pain\suffering was unhealthy\non beneficial. I have been on a consciously and dedicated "Know Thyself" journey since my 30's, one of the results i now have vast knowledge of myself that translates into a high level of self mastery, one such piece of evidence is i no longer inflict myself with non beneficial pain\suffering, though i remain free\open\accepting\appreciatively welcoming to the beneficial pain\suffering that is a normal, natural, healthy part of being a human. "Mindfulness refers to keeping one's consciousness alive to the present reality. It is the miracle by which we master and restore ourselves." - Thich Nhat Hanh And as Tzu has pointed out, it doesn't matter if you or i label existence as 'perfect' or imperfect'. What i have discovered is it doesn't matter what existence is, what's important is what i know about myself and how i consciously choose to relate to it. I was chatting offline with an older person the other week. She was sharing of her journeys through many spiritual paths, main motivation was always feeling lost and wanting to find herself, thinking each specific path will provide her with truthful and transformative information about herself. I said the paths do not provide information about yourself, a guru or master or a spiritual practice, teaching, philosophy or belief system will not do this for you. All paths do is create a space, an environment for you to participate\walk\travel\exist in, and within those experiences you simply look at yourself and you will get all the info you need about yourself.
It is your responses to the paths you walk in that produce information about yourself, that you then process to transform yourself so you develop into a person who is free, peaceful, joyful, deeply in love with yourself and other living things, and are no longer struggling against the multitude of separate but intimately connected elements within existence. "He who knows others is wise. He who knows himself is enlightened." - Lao Tzu Hi jay17, so you have vast knowledge of yourself and by looking at yourself you get all the info you need about yourself? I may be mistaken but the self Lao Tzu was talking about is not the object of knowledge of yourself, because you are the subject of knowledge. Or are you talking about a different self; a personal self? As far as I know "Know Thyself" is a rather peculiar predicament to be in. As you are the knower. And if you are the knower, how will you know yourself? In other words, you can't be an object to you.
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Post by laughter on Apr 15, 2015 18:41:28 GMT -5
The way I'd interpret your description is that conscious observation leads to an integrated physiological state, and in everyday life as well as in extraordinary circumstances, there's lots of challenging conditioning and conditions that can lead to this kind of experience. Looking back, what I realize is that I used to use essentially the same process of observation and the minds capacity for discernment, to unconsciously distance myself, by way of detachment, from unpleasant stimuli like aggressive people, irritating environmental factors like smoke or noise, demanding bosses etc. or to function effectively during a crisis. Tolle wrote something along the lines of: in a challenging situation we can either open and stand consciously embracing the present, or retreat into the conditioned unconscious mode of reactivity. We can deepen in either direction, and a crises will demonstrate for us which way we're headed. In terms of a process of moving toward more rather than less consciousness, the conditioning gets in the way in two ways. One is that the negative unconscious pattern of detachment -- of acting as the determined actor in the face of a challenge -- is actually quite effective. It's what the Romans called stoicism. So something that's worked in the past has to be abandoned. Another is that as we observe the contents of our minds and the states of our bodies in motion, we can realize that the other end of the spectrum of pleasure and joy has much in common with what triggers negative detachment. We can get quite wrapped up in what makes us happy, and that sort of attachment is the inverse of that personalized "evil witnessing". Niz put it this way: the natural tendency of the body/mind is to run away from pain and toward pleasure. In conscious action and being, both are experienced, neither are rejected, but our internal state remains still. Very nice. In terms of a gain-less gain, or goal-less goal; towards the distant less expansion of and unification of consciousness, "more rather than less" is mucho better. it's a different pair 'o dimes my friend.
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Post by earnest on Apr 15, 2015 19:48:30 GMT -5
My uncle died yesterday and I was talking to my mum about it last night. She was quite upset and I could feel the emotional pain of it, I felt sad talking to her. I could see the sadness coming up like a wave and could feel it moving through me. I didn’t need to do anything with the sadness other than know it, and just allow it to be there. Sadness is ok, it doesn’t need a resolution. After the call finished the pain subsided and there was no residue. Suffering (for me) is more associated with resistance and mental fabrications, its secondary to the initial pain. If I got stuck on thinking that it was unfair that he died, or that he died too soon, or that I’m too upset about it all, or not upset enough,. then I’m going beyond the primary pain and into the realms of suffering. Why I see the world as being perfect (but understand that it doesn’t feel that way all the time) is that I’ve had the insight into seeing pain as being distinct from suffering. I don’t see that pain is wrong. Pain is just pain. You do what you do in the moment in response to it. Having the insight doesn’t mean I’m completely free of suffering, I just know more about whats going on, and when suffering does happen I’m more likely to come out of it sooner than I otherwise would, because I can see the churn more clearly and I can see that its not actually helpful or necessary. Though the dictionary treats 'pain' and 'suffering' synonymously, like you i have also discovered there are two types of pain\suffering...beneficial and non beneficial. All pain\suffering felt in our human form is self created. Though i have noticed a trend in society to use the term 'pain' as the natural and acceptable response to difficult\harmful situations, cut your finger\a loved one dies, and the normal\natural\acceptable\healthy response it to feel pain...and the term 'suffering' is used to define, consciously or unconsciously, mentally constructed harmful conclusions about the event or one's responses to it. And in relation to our discussion, one such response is to resist the consequences of the situation. As you shared, you felt pain as you talked to your mum about the death of your uncle, and say your mum strongly resisted the fact that he is gone, she could remain in pain\suffering for years, resisting to accept the reality of the situation. Seems to me it's normal\natural\healthy to feel pain\suffering in pain at the loss of someone, due to soul connection\love of the other, the soul is torn asunder, of course it's going to hurt. But it seems unhealthy\non beneficial to remain in pain for years due to resisting the reality and wishing he did not die. It seems to me, the human being, equipped with a pain warning system, equally has a built in healing system. The soul is torn due to connection with other soul ripped away, but the human being will then set out to heal that damage, motivated by self love, but can't if self constructed damaging thoughts are daily manifested within, thus the wound remains open, with the subsequent pain\suffering. An imprecise way i can express it is, beneficial pain\suffering is caused by a normal healthy response to some type of damage of undisclosed origin, while non beneficial pain\suffering is the self consciously or unconsciously inflicting more damage upon oneself within the current damage experience. Thus one area to examine is why does one inflict non beneficial damage upon oneself...i've been exploring this for a while and i am confident it's related to the level of self love a person has. Took me years, but i now profoundly appreciate pain\suffering, the human being's warning system. So yeah, i do see a difference, but it's not in the two different terms because i see them as synonymous. The difference i see - is a specific pain\suffering beneficial or not. And that requires me to assess every moment that contains pain\suffering. Contemplation, examination, self exploration to determine what mechanisms within are producing a particular pain\suffering, and then using the same abilities, determining what is beneficial and what isn't, and then consciously changing elements within myself to repair the problem that was causing the beneficial 'warning system' pain, or that which was producing the non beneficial 'not required' pain\suffering. The majority of the excruciating pain\suffering i produced and felt, for the first 2-3 years from my much loved wife leaving me, i can confidently say was healthy\beneficial...the 40+ years of hell i suffered from chronic depression, anxiety, and several other disorders...the majority of that pain\suffering was unhealthy\non beneficial. I have been on a consciously and dedicated "Know Thyself" journey since my 30's, one of the results i now have vast knowledge of myself that translates into a high level of self mastery, one such piece of evidence is i no longer inflict myself with non beneficial pain\suffering, though i remain free\open\accepting\appreciatively welcoming to the beneficial pain\suffering that is a normal, natural, healthy part of being a human. "Mindfulness refers to keeping one's consciousness alive to the present reality. It is the miracle by which we master and restore ourselves." - Thich Nhat Hanh And as Tzu has pointed out, it doesn't matter if you or i label existence as 'perfect' or imperfect'. What i have discovered is it doesn't matter what existence is, what's important is what i know about myself and how i consciously choose to relate to it. I was chatting offline with an older person the other week. She was sharing of her journeys through many spiritual paths, main motivation was always feeling lost and wanting to find herself, thinking each specific path will provide her with truthful and transformative information about herself. I said the paths do not provide information about yourself, a guru or master or a spiritual practice, teaching, philosophy or belief system will not do this for you. All paths do is create a space, an environment for you to participate\walk\travel\exist in, and within those experiences you simply look at yourself and you will get all the info you need about yourself. It is your responses to the paths you walk in that produce information about yourself, that you then process to transform yourself so you develop into a person who is free, peaceful, joyful, deeply in love with yourself and other living things, and are no longer struggling against the multitude of separate but intimately connected elements within existence. "He who knows others is wise. He who knows himself is enlightened." - Lao Tzu ok, thanks for your reply. Nothing more for me to add/say.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2015 11:21:06 GMT -5
Hi jay17, so you have vast knowledge of yourself and by looking at yourself you get all the info you need about yourself? Leaving room for clarification, but generally speaking,yep. I may be mistaken but the self Lao Tzu was talking about is not the object of knowledge of yourself, because you are the subject of knowledge. I do not know if you are mistaken or not, because i have no idea if my interpretation of Tzu's words is exactly as he meant it. If you interpret his words as you have, then that is what it means to you, and may your ability to formulate understanding benefit you in some way, just as mine does for me. Or are you talking about a different self; a personal self? Dictionary: Self; 1. Your consciousness of your own identity. 2. A person considered as a unique individual. As far as I know "Know Thyself" is a rather peculiar predicament to be in. As you are the knower. And if you are the knower, how will you know yourself? In other words, you can't be an object to you. I do not know what you mean by "rather peculiar predictament"...but to me, this suggests 'knowing self' is something you are not familiar with, or unsure of, or cannot come to terms with...some kind of uncertainty, which then may evoke unsettling sensations, in that you are not comfortable with an unknown number of elements of the concept, and\or you sense some form of insecurity within yourself...hence the usage of "predicament". I have no proof my current conclusions about my self, existence, my relationship within it, are correct. I am of the current opinion that in human form, my relationship with existence is interpretive, therefore it may be impossible to determine absolute truth about things because i can never see something as it actually is, for all information i receive is interpreted by me. I therefore, since around 2012, have stopped trying to determine absolute truth of certain things, and now dedicate myself to determining what is of benefit to me and those i come in contact with, motivated by a balance of love and reason, heart and mind. Okay, thanks, I know what you mean by self now.
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Post by earnest on Apr 18, 2015 0:40:07 GMT -5
My uncle died yesterday and I was talking to my mum about it last night. She was quite upset and I could feel the emotional pain of it, I felt sad talking to her. I could see the sadness coming up like a wave and could feel it moving through me. I didn’t need to do anything with the sadness other than know it, and just allow it to be there. Sadness is ok, it doesn’t need a resolution. After the call finished the pain subsided and there was no residue. Suffering (for me) is more associated with resistance and mental fabrications, its secondary to the initial pain. If I got stuck on thinking that it was unfair that he died, or that he died too soon, or that I’m too upset about it all, or not upset enough,. then I’m going beyond the primary pain and into the realms of suffering. Why I see the world as being perfect (but understand that it doesn’t feel that way all the time) is that I’ve had the insight into seeing pain as being distinct from suffering. I don’t see that pain is wrong. Pain is just pain. You do what you do in the moment in response to it. Having the insight doesn’t mean I’m completely free of suffering, I just know more about whats going on, and when suffering does happen I’m more likely to come out of it sooner than I otherwise would, because I can see the churn more clearly and I can see that its not actually helpful or necessary. The way I'd interpret your description is that conscious observation leads to an integrated physiological state, and in everyday life as well as in extraordinary circumstances, there's lots of challenging conditioning and conditions that can lead to this kind of experience. Looking back, what I realize is that I used to use essentially the same process of observation and the minds capacity for discernment, to unconsciously distance myself, by way of detachment, from unpleasant stimuli like aggressive people, irritating environmental factors like smoke or noise, demanding bosses etc. or to function effectively during a crisis. Tolle wrote something along the lines of: in a challenging situation we can either open and stand consciously embracing the present, or retreat into the conditioned unconscious mode of reactivity. We can deepen in either direction, and a crises will demonstrate for us which way we're headed. In terms of a process of moving toward more rather than less consciousness, the conditioning gets in the way in two ways. One is that the negative unconscious pattern of detachment -- of acting as the determined actor in the face of a challenge -- is actually quite effective. It's what the Romans called stoicism. So something that's worked in the past has to be abandoned. Another is that as we observe the contents of our minds and the states of our bodies in motion, we can realize that the other end of the spectrum of pleasure and joy has much in common with what triggers negative detachment. We can get quite wrapped up in what makes us happy, and that sort of attachment is the inverse of that personalized "evil witnessing". Niz put it this way: the natural tendency of the body/mind is to run away from pain and toward pleasure. In conscious action and being, both are experienced, neither are rejected, but our internal state remains still. Thanks L. Yeah I can see what you mean about the distancing, and I've see where I've done and continue to do that. The experience of going towards discomfort in a curious/investigative way is very different to investigation as an attempt to get rid of what's uncomfortable. Having a chronic illness gives me extensive experience with this. I have plenty of days where I am up against feeling unwell all day, and it is totally exhausting. But there is something very different that happens when I'm graced with some clarity about it all, when there is an openness towards intensity, when there is no goal at all -there is just the bareness of the experience and nothing else. The Niz quote makes sense in regard to that. When there is that clarity, there is the full constellation of stuff, but internally its very quiet and still, and that very plain and ordinary stillness is undisturbed - then I go hop on a thought train to sh!tssville
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Post by laughter on Apr 19, 2015 11:31:52 GMT -5
The way I'd interpret your description is that conscious observation leads to an integrated physiological state, and in everyday life as well as in extraordinary circumstances, there's lots of challenging conditioning and conditions that can lead to this kind of experience. Looking back, what I realize is that I used to use essentially the same process of observation and the minds capacity for discernment, to unconsciously distance myself, by way of detachment, from unpleasant stimuli like aggressive people, irritating environmental factors like smoke or noise, demanding bosses etc. or to function effectively during a crisis. Tolle wrote something along the lines of: in a challenging situation we can either open and stand consciously embracing the present, or retreat into the conditioned unconscious mode of reactivity. We can deepen in either direction, and a crises will demonstrate for us which way we're headed. In terms of a process of moving toward more rather than less consciousness, the conditioning gets in the way in two ways. One is that the negative unconscious pattern of detachment -- of acting as the determined actor in the face of a challenge -- is actually quite effective. It's what the Romans called stoicism. So something that's worked in the past has to be abandoned. Another is that as we observe the contents of our minds and the states of our bodies in motion, we can realize that the other end of the spectrum of pleasure and joy has much in common with what triggers negative detachment. We can get quite wrapped up in what makes us happy, and that sort of attachment is the inverse of that personalized "evil witnessing". Niz put it this way: the natural tendency of the body/mind is to run away from pain and toward pleasure. In conscious action and being, both are experienced, neither are rejected, but our internal state remains still. Thanks L. Yeah I can see what you mean about the distancing, and I've see where I've done and continue to do that. The experience of going towards discomfort in a curious/investigative way is very different to investigation as an attempt to get rid of what's uncomfortable. Having a chronic illness gives me extensive experience with this. I have plenty of days where I am up against feeling unwell all day, and it is totally exhausting. But there is something very different that happens when I'm graced with some clarity about it all, when there is an openness towards intensity, when there is no goal at all -there is just the bareness of the experience and nothing else. The Niz quote makes sense in regard to that. When there is that clarity, there is the full constellation of stuff, but internally its very quiet and still, and that very plain and ordinary stillness is undisturbed - then I go hop on a thought train to sh!tssville
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