|
Post by earnest on Apr 6, 2015 21:51:29 GMT -5
I think there a massive difference between seeing the world as either perfect or imperfect. I did/do a lot of suffering in thinking the world *should* be other than it is (seeing it as imperfect). I agree that is the difference, you see it as perfect, i see it as imperfect. If, me perceiving existence is imperfect, i am peaceful, not adversely disturbed when i experience imperfect moments, and you, i speculate by your statements thus far, and for the sake of discussion, you are at an equal level of peacefulness, not adversely disturbed when you experience any moment because you perceive them all as perfect... So in that regard, there is no huge difference between us, we both are not adversely disturbed within any experience. (Please clarify any interpretations i may have gotten wrong about you and your thoughts.) Using the flat type scenario: You and i both are not adversely disturbed as we experience a flat tyre and set out to replace it. Then, what is, and where is the huge difference you see? It seems to me that you perceive a world with flat tyres as being a problematic world, that it has something fundamentally missing. I’m summarising this from your earlier comments where you mentioned (what I interpreted was your wish/hope for) the creation of a do-able utopia, and that you imagined (wished for?) a world where “everyone loves everyone else like a parent loves their child”. There is probably other stuff but I find your posts hard to follow at times. But basically this theme of “working towards”, moving from darkness to light, and so on. I see a world with flat tyres as being just fine as it is, and I don’t think being disturbed or not necessarily means that much – just that you are either disturbed or you’re not. Seeing the world as fine as it is (or perfect) doesn’t exclude acting (sometimes very vigorously). My experience is that the world is not out of alignment, or broken in any way whatsoever. Edit: The Kingdom of Heaven Is Spread Upon The Earth But Men Do Not See It - Thomas gospel Samsara is Nirvana - some dead dude
|
|
|
Post by relinquish on Apr 8, 2015 15:57:29 GMT -5
Evidently, 'Nothing' lasts forever. Can 'Nothing' be imperfect?
|
|
|
Post by earnest on Apr 8, 2015 16:03:20 GMT -5
It seems to me that you perceive a world with flat tyres as being a problematic world, that it has something fundamentally missing. I’m summarising this from your earlier comments where you mentioned (what I interpreted was your wish/hope for) the creation of a do-able utopia, and that you imagined (wished for?) a world where “everyone loves everyone else like a parent loves their child”. There is probably other stuff but I find your posts hard to follow at times. But basically this theme of “working towards”, moving from darkness to light, and so on. I see a world with flat tyres as being just fine as it is, and I don’t think being disturbed or not necessarily means that much – just that you are either disturbed or you’re not. Seeing the world as fine as it is (or perfect) doesn’t exclude acting (sometimes very vigorously). My experience is that the world is not out of alignment, or broken in any way whatsoever. Edit: The Kingdom of Heaven Is Spread Upon The Earth But Men Do Not See It - Thomas gospel Samsara is Nirvana - some dead dude I am in a similar boat, that i find it difficult to understand that which you desire to express due to your word choices. Precisely, it has nothing to do with either of us using incorrect words, but that we have differences in how we use them, that leads to misunderstanding. And currently, i am not understanding your meaning. Also i prefer to put aside any discussion of a utopic world due to the vast array of elements involved has potential to complicate the discussion. I prefer to focus on a single element of the whole, a flat tyre scenario. In this post you state flat tyres are fine. I interpret that to mean you will not experience any form of mental or emotional pain when you have a flat on your car. You are not disturbed by the experience, getting a flat tyre..."It's fine, i am not bothered i have a flat, i will simply fix it." But then further on it seems to me you are saying, you, on separate occasions perhaps, will experience either peace or being disturbed when you get a flat, and experiencing the "being bothered" is also fine as it too, is perfect, or is an element of a perfect world, thus any response you produce is fine because it is perfect. But you do not specifically say this, you say being disturbed 'doesn't necessarily mean that much', which to me means there is a slight effect against your view everything is fine and perfect. Also, to me, "acting (sometimes very vigorously)" can be attributed to both positive and negative mental-emotional states. One can be both vigorously joyful and vigorously frustrated. So, if you are now saying you do experience both peace and disturbance (at different times) when changing a flat tyre, and i have also experienced this, then i still do not understand what benefits you obtain by perceiving everything in the world as perfect. If i may extrapolate, it seems that perceiving it that way does not change anything about how you interface with existence. And, that there is no difference between us in what responses we can produce during flat tyre experience, for i too can experience both peace and disturbance in those situations. Thus for me, the main inquiry is what benefits do you receive or produce by perceiving everything is perfect? Other inquiries or observations are... Oh,. And its perfect as it is so you don't need to bother your coconut with trying to make it better ...surely changing a flat tyre is making something better. Can't drive a car with a flat, it is made better by fixing it, the effort to get to a destination is improved\made better, by fixing the flat. I think there a massive difference between seeing the world as either perfect or imperfect. I did/do a lot of suffering in thinking the world *should* be other than it is (seeing it as imperfect). It seems to me, my interpretation that the "big difference" you speak of is the amount of self inflicted suffering you produced when you perceived the world was imperfect to now perceiving it as perfect. And to me, there is a huge difference in thinking the world should be a preferred way when it isn't\the tyre should not be flat, it should be inflated...and the act of fixing it. For, in rereading all the posts in this thread, the reality is the tyre is flat, regardless of your individual, personal judgement the world is perfect and my individual, personal judgement is it's imperfect. You and i both choose to fix the flat, this the labeling of 'imperfect' and 'perfect' seems to be irrelevant to the act of fixing the flat. And thus, one benefit i see you have obtained is you have reduced your self inflicted suffering. "If you are distressed by anything external, the pain is not due to the thing itself, but to your estimate of it; and this you have the power to revoke at any moment." - Marcus Aurelius And one point i am expressing is, you have reduced your self inflicted suffering by changing your "estimate" of the world, while mine remained the same. I have always perceived the world to be full of imperfection, but now it is extremely rare for me to be adversely affected by these self judged imperfections. I am no longer disturbed when i get a flat, i simply and joyfully fix it. I still judge it as a problem, something that requires improvement, fixing to make better, but i am not upset during the whole experience. I do not think the world should not have any flat tyres in it, i do not feel disturbed that the world has flat tyre experiences in it, but i will do what i can to reduce the amount of potential flats i may encounter in the future. A while back I had an experience driving where I looked out the window and realised that everything was exactly where it was meant to be. Every blade of grass was exactly where it should be, every leaf on every tree, The overarching sense and feeling was one of total and utter completeness - of perfection (one old definition of perfect is "complete") Perhaps even a peace that was beyond the confines of any ideas of right and wrong, good and bad etc. A peace that is *before* the label of perfect or imperfect. For me, that's the "peace that passeth all understanding". For convenience I'm calling it perfection because that's how it felt that time in the car, and that's the fainter sense of it now. What I'm trying to get at,. is what is there before its judged. You stated "regardless of your individual, personal judgement the world is perfect and my individual, personal judgement is it's imperfect." So again,. what is it that is there before its judged? I'm interested in that. On another thread you said "From my position, outside of the confines of a world view of Self Realization". I'm interested in what's outside of all confines, and my current understanding is that what SR is all about. I'll leave a poem from Rumi to finish off.
|
|
|
Post by earnest on Apr 8, 2015 20:27:18 GMT -5
I feel like we're edging into the quagmire,.. but anyhoo.. Thus for me, the main inquiry is what benefits do you receive or produce by perceiving everything is perfect? The short answer is freedom. Imperfection implies (to me) resistance. If you've got no resistance to the world as it is, then great, the conversation is over because we're talking about the same thing. If you call it imperfect or I call it perfect it doesn't matter. You've been dropping a few quotes from the Buddha recently. One thing that ol Big B banged on about was that suffering was caused through resistance - not wanting what you've got (aversion) or wanting what you haven't got (craving). No more resistance = no more suffering ---> freedom. Epictetus "True instruction is this: — to learn to wish that each thing should come to pass as it does. And how does it come to pass? As the Disposer has disposed it. Now He has disposed that there should be summer and winter, and plenty and dearth, and vice and virtue, and all such opposites, for the harmony of the whole." Joseph Campbell "In other traditions, good and evil are relative to the position in which you are standing. What is good for one is evil for the other. And you play your part, not withdrawing from the world when you realize how horrible it is, but seeing that this horror is simply the foreground of a wonder: a 'mysterium tremendum et fascinans.'"'All life is sorrowful' is the first Buddhist saying, and so it is. It wouldn’t be life if there weren’t temporality involved, which is sorrow – loss, loss, loss. You’ve got to say yes to life and see it as magnificent this way; for this is surely the way God intended it … " It is joyful just as it is. I don’t believe there was anybody who intended it, but this is the way it is. James Joyce has a memorable line: 'History is a nightmare from which I am trying to awake.' And the way to wake from it is not to be afraid, and to recognize that all of this, as it is, is a manifestation of the horrendous power that is of all creation. The ends of things are always painful. But pain is part of there being a world at all … "I will participate in the game. It is a wonderful, wonderful opera – except that it hurts.”- Joseph Campbell, The Power of Myth
|
|
|
Post by earnest on Apr 11, 2015 7:35:47 GMT -5
Snipping for brevity.. It seems you conclude in a similar fashion to this: I currently conclude that inner peace is - not being in an adversarial relationship with something, there is no resistance to the thing one is engaged with, there is willful full acceptance, there is freedom to relate\engage in any way consciously chosen, there is no external force controlling one's non beneficial(self judged) responses, and self freely and effortlessly(no resistance), chooses beneficial responses, be they thought, feeling or action. The relationship may be somewhat adversarial, but I’m not fighting that. There may be resistance, but so what, I’m human, no need to fight that either. I can’t say its “willful full acceptance”, that’s just not how it plays out. It’s more like acceptance is granted, maybe you could call it grace, and I’m thankful for that. It’s not chosen though. If it was, then I’d willfully choose all sorts of cool stuff! There isn’t really much conscious choice either – I just do the obvious thing, or I don’t. The rest isn’t really it either. The only thing that i still do not understand, is if you are interfacing within existence in a similar fashion, it still seems contradictory to me when you say that you can also experience some form of suffering within the experience of having a flat tyre. That you can experience, in one event, stillness, peace and joy when faced with and fixing a flat tyre, and you say this is a perfect way to respond. Then during another flat tyre incident, you may experience anger, frustration, annoyance, etc..yet still call this a perfect way to respond. The contradiction i see, and it either is or i simply do not understand your usage of the term 'perfect'...but so far it seems contradictory to state you have achieved freedom, peace, no resistance, but then sometimes express adverse sensations when dealing with a flat tyre. I simply do not understand this. I think you’re mixing up “free of” and “free from”. Getting a flat tyre and being frustrated because I’m going to be late for work is not really a problem because I’m (increasingly..) seeing feelings of frustration as not being a problem that needs a solution. I don’t care if I go through the rest of my life periodically being frustrated by things. I don’t choose for that feeling to come up, so why should I try and get rid of it? But feeling frustrated doesn’t have the same grip on me like it used to though, and typically doesn’t last as long. For me, from decades of contemplation of myself and all other elements within the interactive inter-connective existence i am in, when comparing myself against my previous states of being, i judge i now have an extremely high level of freedom, peace\inner stillness\no resistance to nearly every experience and element, but not 100%. I am not even looking to achieve 100%. I am content with the speed with which i can resolve any adverse responses i may produce within a given experience. I mention this to convey to you that i am not thinking how you roll is incorrect or inferior or incomplete. I simply do not understand that which i have already expressed. However, because my suffering is now extremely rare and minor, and i speculate you experience existence in a similar fashion, there is no urgent need to explain anything to me, i do not require help\support to improve my life,and i speculate neither do you. I am simply inquisitive, and wanted to understand this "perfection" concept. If you have no resistance,.. why do you need to resolve adverse responses? Are you talking about resolving the situation (eg fixing the flat tyre) or about resolving your thoughts/feelings about the situation (moving from frustration to freedom\peace etc)?
|
|
|
Post by tzujanli on Apr 11, 2015 10:40:01 GMT -5
Existence IS.....
|
|
|
Post by relinquish on Apr 11, 2015 17:10:50 GMT -5
True....and following that very simple realization, in my experience, comes an unbridled revelry in fact that REAL imperfection and incompleteness can never actually be found. It can only ever be imagined to be found. And I think that's wonderful!
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2015 17:17:50 GMT -5
True....and following that very simple realization, in my experience, comes an unbridled revelry in fact that REAL imperfection and incompleteness can never actually be found. It can only ever be imagined to be found. And I think that's wonderful! When I moves too fast, 'you are' appears.. only in such a mental dynamic is imperfection even remotely possible.
|
|
|
Post by laughter on Apr 11, 2015 19:12:00 GMT -5
True....and following that very simple realization, in my experience, comes an unbridled revelry in fact that REAL imperfection and incompleteness can never actually be found. It can only ever be imagined to be found. And I think that's wonderful! When I moves too fast, 'you are' appears.. only in such a mental dynamic is imperfection even remotely possible.
|
|
|
Post by earnest on Apr 13, 2015 4:50:32 GMT -5
The relationship may be somewhat adversarial, but I’m not fighting that. There may be resistance, but so what, I’m human, no need to fight that either. I still do not understand your word useage. I've cut the rest out for the moment and have a question for you. In your direct experience, is there a difference between pain (physical or emotional) and suffering? If you experience a difference, how would you describe that difference?
|
|
|
Post by earnest on Apr 14, 2015 6:06:23 GMT -5
I've cut the rest out for the moment and have a question for you. In your direct experience, is there a difference between pain (physical or emotional) and suffering? If you experience a difference, how would you describe that difference? Difficult to answer due to a few things... 1. I require your definitions of 'emotional pain' and 'suffering' 2. Dictionary classifies them as synonyms. 3. Also depends on your definition of 'emotion', as from one angle i can classify the sensation of physical pain as an emotion. 4. It might help me if you gave an example of what you would classify as physical pain, emotional pain, and suffering. I don't think getting into dictionary definitions is really going to be of much help with this. There is a concept in Buddhism called the two arrows. Here's a link www.wildmind.org/texts/the-arrow. If you don't like that one there is an internet full of them. Have a look at that and let me know how you go. edit : if you want to go back to the source, here's the sutra www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn36/sn36.006.than.html
|
|
|
Post by earnest on Apr 14, 2015 19:21:49 GMT -5
Read the first link. I agree and rez with the majority of the author's thoughts on the subject, as my state of being since 2008-9 is that i effortlessly operate in what he describes as the "wiser course of action." I attempted suicide because i was, for the majority of my life, uncontrollably overwhelmed with self created emotional and mental pain\suffering, and could not resolve it all, could not free myself from it. Though i would also seek clarification on a few points expressed by that author as i have done with you, due to my appreciation of Semantics, even though you have expressed you find little or no value in it. I will also point out that, to me, the link does not address my inquiries regarding your question... In your direct experience, is there a difference between pain (physical or emotional) and suffering? ...plus, that author also treats the terms 'pain' and 'suffering', synomymously. So, it seems to me i am still in the same position, finding it difficult to address your question of differences, when i see they are the same thing, so i requested some clarification , some more info. My uncle died yesterday and I was talking to my mum about it last night. She was quite upset and I could feel the emotional pain of it, I felt sad talking to her. I could see the sadness coming up like a wave and could feel it moving through me. I didn’t need to do anything with the sadness other than know it, and just allow it to be there. Sadness is ok, it doesn’t need a resolution. After the call finished the pain subsided and there was no residue. Suffering (for me) is more associated with resistance and mental fabrications, its secondary to the initial pain. If I got stuck on thinking that it was unfair that he died, or that he died too soon, or that I’m too upset about it all, or not upset enough,. then I’m going beyond the primary pain and into the realms of suffering. Why I see the world as being perfect (but understand that it doesn’t feel that way all the time) is that I’ve had the insight into seeing pain as being distinct from suffering. I don’t see that pain is wrong. Pain is just pain. You do what you do in the moment in response to it. Having the insight doesn’t mean I’m completely free of suffering, I just know more about whats going on, and when suffering does happen I’m more likely to come out of it sooner than I otherwise would, because I can see the churn more clearly and I can see that its not actually helpful or necessary.
|
|
|
Post by tzujanli on Apr 14, 2015 19:46:33 GMT -5
Read the first link. I agree and rez with the majority of the author's thoughts on the subject, as my state of being since 2008-9 is that i effortlessly operate in what he describes as the "wiser course of action." I attempted suicide because i was, for the majority of my life, uncontrollably overwhelmed with self created emotional and mental pain\suffering, and could not resolve it all, could not free myself from it. Though i would also seek clarification on a few points expressed by that author as i have done with you, due to my appreciation of Semantics, even though you have expressed you find little or no value in it. I will also point out that, to me, the link does not address my inquiries regarding your question......plus, that author also treats the terms 'pain' and 'suffering', synomymously. So, it seems to me i am still in the same position, finding it difficult to address your question of differences, when i see they are the same thing, so i requested some clarification , some more info. My uncle died yesterday and I was talking to my mum about it last night. She was quite upset and I could feel the emotional pain of it, I felt sad talking to her. I could see the sadness coming up like a wave and could feel it moving through me. I didn’t need to do anything with the sadness other than know it, and just allow it to be there. Sadness is ok, it doesn’t need a resolution. After the call finished the pain subsided and there was no residue. Suffering (for me) is more associated with resistance and mental fabrications, its secondary to the initial pain. If I got stuck on thinking that it was unfair that he died, or that he died too soon, or that I’m too upset about it all, or not upset enough,. then I’m going beyond the primary pain and into the realms of suffering. Why I see the world as being perfect (but understand that it doesn’t feel that way all the time) is that I’ve had the insight into seeing pain as being distinct from suffering. I don’t see that pain is wrong. Pain is just pain. You do what you do in the moment in response to it. Having the insight doesn’t mean I’m completely free of suffering, I just know more about whats going on, and when suffering does happen I’m more likely to come out of it sooner than I otherwise would, because I can see the churn more clearly and I can see that its not actually helpful or necessary. Your second paragraph is consistent with my own understandings.. 'Perfection'/imperfection, as i understand the words, are arbitrary value judgments based on the experiencer's beliefs.. one person's perfection is utter imperfection to another..
|
|
|
Post by laughter on Apr 15, 2015 6:55:11 GMT -5
Read the first link. I agree and rez with the majority of the author's thoughts on the subject, as my state of being since 2008-9 is that i effortlessly operate in what he describes as the "wiser course of action." I attempted suicide because i was, for the majority of my life, uncontrollably overwhelmed with self created emotional and mental pain\suffering, and could not resolve it all, could not free myself from it. Though i would also seek clarification on a few points expressed by that author as i have done with you, due to my appreciation of Semantics, even though you have expressed you find little or no value in it. I will also point out that, to me, the link does not address my inquiries regarding your question......plus, that author also treats the terms 'pain' and 'suffering', synomymously. So, it seems to me i am still in the same position, finding it difficult to address your question of differences, when i see they are the same thing, so i requested some clarification , some more info. My uncle died yesterday and I was talking to my mum about it last night. She was quite upset and I could feel the emotional pain of it, I felt sad talking to her. I could see the sadness coming up like a wave and could feel it moving through me. I didn’t need to do anything with the sadness other than know it, and just allow it to be there. Sadness is ok, it doesn’t need a resolution. After the call finished the pain subsided and there was no residue. Suffering (for me) is more associated with resistance and mental fabrications, its secondary to the initial pain. If I got stuck on thinking that it was unfair that he died, or that he died too soon, or that I’m too upset about it all, or not upset enough,. then I’m going beyond the primary pain and into the realms of suffering. Why I see the world as being perfect (but understand that it doesn’t feel that way all the time) is that I’ve had the insight into seeing pain as being distinct from suffering. I don’t see that pain is wrong. Pain is just pain. You do what you do in the moment in response to it. Having the insight doesn’t mean I’m completely free of suffering, I just know more about whats going on, and when suffering does happen I’m more likely to come out of it sooner than I otherwise would, because I can see the churn more clearly and I can see that its not actually helpful or necessary. The way I'd interpret your description is that conscious observation leads to an integrated physiological state, and in everyday life as well as in extraordinary circumstances, there's lots of challenging conditioning and conditions that can lead to this kind of experience. Looking back, what I realize is that I used to use essentially the same process of observation and the minds capacity for discernment, to unconsciously distance myself, by way of detachment, from unpleasant stimuli like aggressive people, irritating environmental factors like smoke or noise, demanding bosses etc. or to function effectively during a crisis. Tolle wrote something along the lines of: in a challenging situation we can either open and stand consciously embracing the present, or retreat into the conditioned unconscious mode of reactivity. We can deepen in either direction, and a crises will demonstrate for us which way we're headed. In terms of a process of moving toward more rather than less consciousness, the conditioning gets in the way in two ways. One is that the negative unconscious pattern of detachment -- of acting as the determined actor in the face of a challenge -- is actually quite effective. It's what the Romans called stoicism. So something that's worked in the past has to be abandoned. Another is that as we observe the contents of our minds and the states of our bodies in motion, we can realize that the other end of the spectrum of pleasure and joy has much in common with what triggers negative detachment. We can get quite wrapped up in what makes us happy, and that sort of attachment is the inverse of that personalized "evil witnessing". Niz put it this way: the natural tendency of the body/mind is to run away from pain and toward pleasure. In conscious action and being, both are experienced, neither are rejected, but our internal state remains still.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2015 13:28:55 GMT -5
My uncle died yesterday and I was talking to my mum about it last night. She was quite upset and I could feel the emotional pain of it, I felt sad talking to her. I could see the sadness coming up like a wave and could feel it moving through me. I didn’t need to do anything with the sadness other than know it, and just allow it to be there. Sadness is ok, it doesn’t need a resolution. After the call finished the pain subsided and there was no residue. Suffering (for me) is more associated with resistance and mental fabrications, its secondary to the initial pain. If I got stuck on thinking that it was unfair that he died, or that he died too soon, or that I’m too upset about it all, or not upset enough,. then I’m going beyond the primary pain and into the realms of suffering. Why I see the world as being perfect (but understand that it doesn’t feel that way all the time) is that I’ve had the insight into seeing pain as being distinct from suffering. I don’t see that pain is wrong. Pain is just pain. You do what you do in the moment in response to it. Having the insight doesn’t mean I’m completely free of suffering, I just know more about whats going on, and when suffering does happen I’m more likely to come out of it sooner than I otherwise would, because I can see the churn more clearly and I can see that its not actually helpful or necessary. The way I'd interpret your description is that conscious observation leads to an integrated physiological state, and in everyday life as well as in extraordinary circumstances, there's lots of challenging conditioning and conditions that can lead to this kind of experience. Looking back, what I realize is that I used to use essentially the same process of observation and the minds capacity for discernment, to unconsciously distance myself, by way of detachment, from unpleasant stimuli like aggressive people, irritating environmental factors like smoke or noise, demanding bosses etc. or to function effectively during a crisis. Tolle wrote something along the lines of: in a challenging situation we can either open and stand consciously embracing the present, or retreat into the conditioned unconscious mode of reactivity. We can deepen in either direction, and a crises will demonstrate for us which way we're headed. In terms of a process of moving toward more rather than less consciousness, the conditioning gets in the way in two ways. One is that the negative unconscious pattern of detachment -- of acting as the determined actor in the face of a challenge -- is actually quite effective. It's what the Romans called stoicism. So something that's worked in the past has to be abandoned. Another is that as we observe the contents of our minds and the states of our bodies in motion, we can realize that the other end of the spectrum of pleasure and joy has much in common with what triggers negative detachment. We can get quite wrapped up in what makes us happy, and that sort of attachment is the inverse of that personalized "evil witnessing". Niz put it this way: the natural tendency of the body/mind is to run away from pain and toward pleasure. In conscious action and being, both are experienced, neither are rejected, but our internal state remains still. Very nice. In terms of a gain-less gain, or goal-less goal; towards the distant less expansion of and unification of consciousness, "more rather than less" is mucho better.
|
|