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Post by Deleted on Mar 18, 2015 16:26:42 GMT -5
Ramana also spent the next seven years after his Enlightenment not even speaking, so don't poo poo on me for not 'engaging' in the world. If you please.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 18, 2015 16:49:49 GMT -5
Ramana said that sahaja samadhi was permanent. He would sit for hours sometimes totally absorbed in the Self. At other times he was actively involved with his devotees or cutting vegetables in the kitchen etc. He said his absorption was a such a strong pull. But as time went on he spent less time absorbed in samadhi. But he would say that whether just absorbed or engaged in activity Self was always totally dominant and had been since he realized in his uncles house when he was 16 years old. Sat: Before responding too quickly, please ponder these two statements carefully: 1. Roy wrote, "I am, as Ramana as my gauge, not permanently (unintermittently) 'in' Sahaja." 2. Ramana said that sahaja samadhi is permanent. I can understand why someone might think that intermittent samadhi might eventually evolve into sahaja, but that is not what happens. Any samadhi that is not permanent NOW is NOT sahaja no matter what anyone might imagine. It may be nirvikalpa samadhi or other lesser samadhis, but it is not sahaja. Notice that in the quote you posted Ramana claimed that WHETHER ENGAGED IN ACTIVITY or absorbed, Self was always totally dominant, AND HAD BEEN SINCE HE REALIZED (at the age of 16). He was not talking about some gradual change over time. When it happens, if it happens, it happens suddenly. Up to a single point in time there is "me" going into and out of various states of mind, but in the next moment that is over and done with. This is what Reefs has been constantly pointing to with different words. Any samadhi that does not continue uninterruptedly, is not sahaja. So what you've basically said is that when the intermittent samadhi is no longer intermittent it is unintermittent. LOL. Of course you are right, but if you look carefully at this post you will notice the redundancy of it. ZD, I know you mean well, but I know all this. There is nothing within or coming from mind that is required. You may think there is, but there isn't.
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Post by laughter on Mar 18, 2015 17:04:36 GMT -5
Ramana also spent the next seven years after his Enlightenment not even speaking, so don't poo poo on me for not 'engaging' in the world. If you please. Do you think you've been "poo-poo"'ed? It's useful, in terms of self-inquiry, to discern what is reaction in an interaction. For instance, as an objective measure, you can compare your expressions of opinion of others, and what that's based on, to the expressions of opinion of others about you. What is the meaning and value of these opinions?
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Post by laughter on Mar 18, 2015 17:09:16 GMT -5
The expectation of perpetugasm can be just such a behavioral convention. The very fact that you use such a term (one that specifically references a physically based kind of feeling of bodily pleasure) to describe what others are terming bliss/peace/joy, indicates that you're not understanding what is actually being referred to. And please note; It's not 'expectations' that are being talked about, but rather, the sharing of actual experience.... Not so much what 'should' happen, or what can be expected to happen, but rather, what Is happening. Well if you think that there's a misunderstanding you're always welcome to express yourself more fully on the matter. (** straight face **)In terms of the expectation, if it's not there, then the comment obviously doesn't apply ... do you want to litigate on the question of whether or not the expectation has been expressed in this thread?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 18, 2015 18:28:53 GMT -5
Ramana also spent the next seven years after his Enlightenment not even speaking, so don't poo poo on me for not 'engaging' in the world. If you please. www.youtube.com/user/roydop
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Post by Deleted on Mar 18, 2015 21:39:02 GMT -5
If everyone is looking for the end of suffering, then if there is an end of suffering, can it not be spoken about by someone who is no longer suffering? This speaking necessarily has at it's core an idea of what you are. Of course it can be spoken about, but can you discern what the nature of this speech necessarily has to be? You are an exceptionally good theorist.
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Post by laughter on Mar 18, 2015 23:13:51 GMT -5
This speaking necessarily has at it's core an idea of what you are. Of course it can be spoken about, but can you discern what the nature of this speech necessarily has to be? You are an exceptionally good theorist. To you it might seem that way, sure.
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Post by zendancer on Mar 18, 2015 23:26:02 GMT -5
Ramana also spent the next seven years after his Enlightenment not even speaking, so don't poo poo on me for not 'engaging' in the world. If you please. FWIW, I would never poo poo on you or anyone else for not engaging with the world. Source manifests in many different ways. You may be drawn to years of silence, and if so, that will be the perfect unfolding of Source. What I objected to was your declaration that such disengagement is NECESSARY for SR to occur or to attain the kind of Samadhi that Ramana manifested. You, yourself, wrote that you do not yet manifest uninterrupted Samadhi, and that means that you haven't yet attained what he attained--sahaja Samadhi. Whether that will happen or not in the future is not up to you. If you are not in sahaja Samadhi now, which is continuous, then you do not yet know what it IS. FWIW, I experienced deep nirvikalpa Samadhi for the first time five months after I started meditating. I didn't know what it was called at that time, or what kind of state I had stumbled into, but I knew that "I" had disappeared completely for several hours into the most peaceful state imaginable. Later I learned how to enter that state rather easily. I also later experienced other varieties of Samadhi, as well as CC experiences, but all of those experiences were transitory. Occasionally, I would sit in nirvikalpa Samadhi for hours on end with body and mind totally fallen off, but I always eventually returned to a "me in here" looking at "a world out there." After fourteen years of having these kinds of transitory experiences of unity and emptiness, I began to wonder, "How is it possible to stay in a unity conscious state of mind permanently?" That became a personal koan. On the afternoon of Aug 17, 1999, I suddenly discovered the answer to that question, and the transitory nature of my past experiences came to an end. Not only did I discover that there had never been a person who had had any kind of experiences, but I also discovered what I AM. Sahaja Samadhi continued uninterruptedly from that point on, and that was the day that this body/mind's search for truth came to an end. As I assume you know, for someone who has never experienced nirvikalpa Samadhi, it cannot be imagined. By contrast, Sahaja Samadhi is even less imaginable because it is not an experience at all. After sahaja Samadhi is attained, the body may sit in silence for many years, or it may become totally engaged in the world. In neither case will there be a person at the center of what is happening. This is what E. calls "the natural state." In the natural state if thinking occurs, thinking, and if silence occurs, silence, and it doesn't make a whit of difference. If a body/mind is called to silence, then silence will ensue, and if a body/mind is called to action, then action will ensue. If you are called to silence at this time, then that's perfect. I spent years in silence, so I can appreciate that call, but it is not the only calling.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 19, 2015 0:02:55 GMT -5
Ramana also spent the next seven years after his Enlightenment not even speaking, so don't poo poo on me for not 'engaging' in the world. If you please. FWIW, I would never poo poo on you or anyone else for not engaging with the world. Source manifests in many different ways. You may be drawn to years of silence, and if so, that will be the perfect unfolding of Source. What I objected to was your declaration that such disengagement is NECESSARY for SR to occur or to attain the kind of Samadhi that Ramana manifested. You, yourself, wrote that you do not yet manifest uninterrupted Samadhi, and that means that you haven't yet attained what he attained--sahaja Samadhi. Whether that will happen or not in the future is not up to you. If you are not in sahaja Samadhi now, which is continuous, then you do not yet know what it IS. FWIW, I experienced deep nirvikalpa Samadhi for the first time five months after I started meditating. I didn't know what it was called at that time, or what kind of state I had stumbled into, but I knew that "I" had disappeared completely for several hours into the most peaceful state imaginable. Later I learned how to enter that state rather easily. I also later experienced other varieties of Samadhi, as well as CC experiences, but all of those experiences were transitory. Occasionally, I would sit in nirvikalpa Samadhi for hours on end with body and mind totally fallen off, but I always eventually returned to a "me in here" looking at "a world out there." After fourteen years of having these kinds of transitory experiences of unity and emptiness, I began to wonder, "How is it possible to stay in a unity conscious state of mind permanently?" That became a personal koan. On the afternoon of Aug 17, 1999, I suddenly discovered the answer to that question, and the transitory nature of my past experiences came to an end. Not only did I discover that there had never been a person who had had any kind of experiences, but I also discovered what I AM. Sahaja Samadhi continued uninterruptedly from that point on, and that was the day that this body/mind's search for truth came to an end. As I assume you know, for someone who has never experienced nirvikalpa Samadhi, it cannot be imagined. By contrast, Sahaja Samadhi is even less imaginable because it is not an experience at all. After sahaja Samadhi is attained, the body may sit in silence for many years, or it may become totally engaged in the world. In neither case will there be a person at the center of what is happening. This is what E. calls "the natural state." In the natural state if thinking occurs, thinking, and if silence occurs, silence, and it doesn't make a whit of difference. If a body/mind is called to silence, then silence will ensue, and if a body/mind is called to action, then action will ensue. If you are called to silence at this time, then that's perfect. I spent years in silence, so I can appreciate that call, but it is not the only calling. I don't know what I can add to what you have said. Sahaja is permanent. There is no idea of gradualism to get to it, which I believe is the case with some Zen schools. ZD you really are stuck with this zen curse aren't you. LOL. I make no secret of being a practicer. I spent many years meditating. During that time I experienced temporary samadhis. During practice, the mind would settle down and often reach complete one pointedness. This was often accompanied by great feelings of bliss. But when the practice was over, the feeling slowly dissipated until it was time for the next session. These experiences were not consistent. But one day about seven years ago while I was meditating a "switch flicked" and in a split second it all fell away. It was nothing gradual. I just became who I was. Completely natural. It is beyond understanding. That "state" for the want of a better word is always. It is not something I need to get into because it always is, plain and simple. And the funny thing is that if ZD is in that state too and he writes something I disagree with, and I tell him, it makes no difference whatsoever.
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Post by onehandclapping on Mar 19, 2015 3:53:34 GMT -5
It might be worth re-reading your response to my two earlier questions. Most people don't even know what nirvikalpa Samadhi is, but you do. Read what you wrote following your first answer. As we both know, nirvikalpa samadhi is transitory, but there is no gradual transition from that into sahaja samadhi. I'm a nobody, so you might want to check out what Ramana says about this. No, more reading is not required. What you all don't seem to notice is that you are a dog chasing it's tail. Mind, in the form of this forum, has you so entranced that you can't see your own delusion. Round round you go, all the while missing Reality. Of course mind will convince you otherwise, as its survival depends upon the constant procreation of thought. I'm not sure how you will break out of the vortex you're in, but good luck to you. Attachment to words it sounds like....ummmm yes, think so I do. -Yoda Roy throw those invisible clothes on the floor and tell us the sound they make. Then come back and try your "forum" story again with some clarity. :-)
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Post by tzujanli on Mar 19, 2015 5:15:57 GMT -5
Ramana also spent the next seven years after his Enlightenment not even speaking, so don't poo poo on me for not 'engaging' in the world. If you please. Ramana's Enlightenment?? seriously?.. let go of that anchor, have your own authentic experiences rather than wearing someone else's old clothes..
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Post by zendancer on Mar 19, 2015 7:34:51 GMT -5
FWIW, I would never poo poo on you or anyone else for not engaging with the world. Source manifests in many different ways. You may be drawn to years of silence, and if so, that will be the perfect unfolding of Source. What I objected to was your declaration that such disengagement is NECESSARY for SR to occur or to attain the kind of Samadhi that Ramana manifested. You, yourself, wrote that you do not yet manifest uninterrupted Samadhi, and that means that you haven't yet attained what he attained--sahaja Samadhi. Whether that will happen or not in the future is not up to you. If you are not in sahaja Samadhi now, which is continuous, then you do not yet know what it IS. FWIW, I experienced deep nirvikalpa Samadhi for the first time five months after I started meditating. I didn't know what it was called at that time, or what kind of state I had stumbled into, but I knew that "I" had disappeared completely for several hours into the most peaceful state imaginable. Later I learned how to enter that state rather easily. I also later experienced other varieties of Samadhi, as well as CC experiences, but all of those experiences were transitory. Occasionally, I would sit in nirvikalpa Samadhi for hours on end with body and mind totally fallen off, but I always eventually returned to a "me in here" looking at "a world out there." After fourteen years of having these kinds of transitory experiences of unity and emptiness, I began to wonder, "How is it possible to stay in a unity conscious state of mind permanently?" That became a personal koan. On the afternoon of Aug 17, 1999, I suddenly discovered the answer to that question, and the transitory nature of my past experiences came to an end. Not only did I discover that there had never been a person who had had any kind of experiences, but I also discovered what I AM. Sahaja Samadhi continued uninterruptedly from that point on, and that was the day that this body/mind's search for truth came to an end. As I assume you know, for someone who has never experienced nirvikalpa Samadhi, it cannot be imagined. By contrast, Sahaja Samadhi is even less imaginable because it is not an experience at all. After sahaja Samadhi is attained, the body may sit in silence for many years, or it may become totally engaged in the world. In neither case will there be a person at the center of what is happening. This is what E. calls "the natural state." In the natural state if thinking occurs, thinking, and if silence occurs, silence, and it doesn't make a whit of difference. If a body/mind is called to silence, then silence will ensue, and if a body/mind is called to action, then action will ensue. If you are called to silence at this time, then that's perfect. I spent years in silence, so I can appreciate that call, but it is not the only calling. I don't know what I can add to what you have said. Sahaja is permanent. There is no idea of gradualism to get to it, which I believe is the case with some Zen schools. ZD you really are stuck with this zen curse aren't you. LOL. I make no secret of being a practicer. I spent many years meditating. During that time I experienced temporary samadhis. During practice, the mind would settle down and often reach complete one pointedness. This was often accompanied by great feelings of bliss. But when the practice was over, the feeling slowly dissipated until it was time for the next session. These experiences were not consistent. But one day about seven years ago while I was meditating a "switch flicked" and in a split second it all fell away. It was nothing gradual. I just became who I was. Completely natural. It is beyond understanding. That "state" for the want of a better word is always. It is not something I need to get into because it always is, plain and simple. And the funny thing is that if ZD is in that state too and he writes something I disagree with, and I tell him, it makes no difference whatsoever. You are absolutely correct, and I owe you a deep debt of gratitude. The Ramana quote you posted several days ago connected several spiritual-tradition language dots, and made me realize that what I've been calling "flow" for a long time is what Ramana and the Vedantins call "sahaja Samadhi." It is not special. It is our ordinary life without the dominance of mind. It's like being a little kid again while retaining the full range of adult intellectual capability. It's like being at play all the time. I fully understand what happened to you when the switch flipped. It flipped for me in 1999. Freedom ensued; and it has remained like that ever since. I still meditate and ATA, but I never know when that will happen. Sometimes the body/mind is drawn to sit in silence for an hour or two, and at other times it's drawn to go for a hike while ATA'ing. I don't call it "a practice" because there is no one practicing to get anywhere or to attain anything. Life unfolds however it unfolds, and there is no objection to whatever happens. I've been very lucky in this lifetime and I've met some amazing people. The clearest guy I ever met was ZM Seung Sahn. The switch flipped for him at the age of 19 after a 100 day silent retreat. He was the first Zen Master I ever met in person (I would later meet dozens of others), and within 5 minutes I could see that he was free in a way that no one else I had ever met was free. Although I never liked the rigidity of the Zen format, Zen was very helpful because it showed me that it was possible to become free from the dominance of mind. Later, I met Gangaji and Adyashanti, and was shocked to hear them both say that you can't practice your way to being what you already are. I intellectually understood what they were saying, but it would require a realization before it could be fully understood through the body. You wrote that when the switch flipped, "I became who I was." I would state this slightly differently. I would say that you REALIZED what you ALREADY were. AAR, you know what you ARE, and that's what really matters. I know that what I am is writing these words to what I am, and you know it, too. Carry on.
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Post by zendancer on Mar 19, 2015 7:38:32 GMT -5
Ramana also spent the next seven years after his Enlightenment not even speaking, so don't poo poo on me for not 'engaging' in the world. If you please. Ramana's Enlightenment?? seriously?.. let go of that anchor, have your own authentic experiences rather than wearing someone else's old clothes.. Totally agree. The Religion of Silence? Sounds like a head trip to me.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 19, 2015 8:05:53 GMT -5
I don't know what I can add to what you have said. Sahaja is permanent. There is no idea of gradualism to get to it, which I believe is the case with some Zen schools. ZD you really are stuck with this zen curse aren't you. LOL. I make no secret of being a practicer. I spent many years meditating. During that time I experienced temporary samadhis. During practice, the mind would settle down and often reach complete one pointedness. This was often accompanied by great feelings of bliss. But when the practice was over, the feeling slowly dissipated until it was time for the next session. These experiences were not consistent. But one day about seven years ago while I was meditating a "switch flicked" and in a split second it all fell away. It was nothing gradual. I just became who I was. Completely natural. It is beyond understanding. That "state" for the want of a better word is always. It is not something I need to get into because it always is, plain and simple. And the funny thing is that if ZD is in that state too and he writes something I disagree with, and I tell him, it makes no difference whatsoever. You are absolutely correct, and I owe you a deep debt of gratitude. The Ramana quote you posted several days ago connected several spiritual-tradition language dots, and made me realize that what I've been calling "flow" for a long time is what Ramana and the Vedantins call "sahaja Samadhi." It is not special. It is our ordinary life without the dominance of mind. It's like being a little kid again while retaining the full range of adult intellectual capability. It's like being at play all the time. I fully understand what happened to you when the switch flipped. It flipped for me in 1999. Freedom ensued; and it has remained like that ever since. I still meditate and ATA, but I never know when that will happen. Sometimes the body/mind is drawn to sit in silence for an hour or two, and at other times it's drawn to go for a hike while ATA'ing. I don't call it "a practice" because there is no one practicing to get anywhere or to attain anything. Life unfolds however it unfolds, and there is no objection to whatever happens. I've been very lucky in this lifetime and I've met some amazing people. The clearest guy I ever met was ZM Seung Sahn. The switch flipped for him at the age of 19 after a 100 day silent retreat. He was the first Zen Master I ever met in person (I would later meet dozens of others), and within 5 minutes I could see that he was free in a way that no one else I had ever met was free. Although I never liked the rigidity of the Zen format, Zen was very helpful because it showed me that it was possible to become free from the dominance of mind. Later, I met Gangaji and Adyashanti, and was shocked to hear them both say that you can't practice your way to being what you already are. I intellectually understood what they were saying, but it would require a realization before it could be fully understood through the body. You wrote that when the switch flipped, "I became who I was." I would state this slightly differently. I would say that you REALIZED what you ALREADY were. AAR, you know what you ARE, and that's what really matters. I know that what I am is writing these words to what I am, and you know it, too. Carry on. Yes I prefer the way you put that last bit. Huh, spoiling for a fight already eh. LOL. What got my attention was when you said life is like play. It is called Lila in Sanskrit. Spot on. Now I know you know. This is a bit of cut and paste I'm afraid, but does this seem familiar. It will annoy the hell out of Tzu I expect. Lila Within non-dualism, Lila is a way of describing all reality, including the cosmos, as the outcome of creative play by the divine absolute (Brahman). Brahman is full of all perfections. And to say that Brahman has some purpose in creating the world will mean that it wants to attain through the process of creation something which it has not. And that is impossible. Hence, there can be no purpose of Brahman in creating the world. The world is a mere spontaneous creation of Brahman. It is a Lila, or sport, of Brahman. It is created out of Bliss, by Bliss and for Bliss. Lila indicates a spontaneous sportive activity of Brahman as distinguished from a self-conscious volitional effort. The concept of Lila signifies freedom as distinguished from necessity. —Ram Shanker Misra, The Integral Advaitism of Sri Aurobindo
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Post by zendancer on Mar 19, 2015 8:49:43 GMT -5
You are absolutely correct, and I owe you a deep debt of gratitude. The Ramana quote you posted several days ago connected several spiritual-tradition language dots, and made me realize that what I've been calling "flow" for a long time is what Ramana and the Vedantins call "sahaja Samadhi." It is not special. It is our ordinary life without the dominance of mind. It's like being a little kid again while retaining the full range of adult intellectual capability. It's like being at play all the time. I fully understand what happened to you when the switch flipped. It flipped for me in 1999. Freedom ensued; and it has remained like that ever since. I still meditate and ATA, but I never know when that will happen. Sometimes the body/mind is drawn to sit in silence for an hour or two, and at other times it's drawn to go for a hike while ATA'ing. I don't call it "a practice" because there is no one practicing to get anywhere or to attain anything. Life unfolds however it unfolds, and there is no objection to whatever happens. I've been very lucky in this lifetime and I've met some amazing people. The clearest guy I ever met was ZM Seung Sahn. The switch flipped for him at the age of 19 after a 100 day silent retreat. He was the first Zen Master I ever met in person (I would later meet dozens of others), and within 5 minutes I could see that he was free in a way that no one else I had ever met was free. Although I never liked the rigidity of the Zen format, Zen was very helpful because it showed me that it was possible to become free from the dominance of mind. Later, I met Gangaji and Adyashanti, and was shocked to hear them both say that you can't practice your way to being what you already are. I intellectually understood what they were saying, but it would require a realization before it could be fully understood through the body. You wrote that when the switch flipped, "I became who I was." I would state this slightly differently. I would say that you REALIZED what you ALREADY were. AAR, you know what you ARE, and that's what really matters. I know that what I am is writing these words to what I am, and you know it, too. Carry on. Yes I prefer the way you put that last bit. Huh, spoiling for a fight already eh. LOL. What got my attention was when you said life is like play. It is called Lila in Sanskrit. Spot on. Now I know you know. This is a bit of cut and paste I'm afraid, but does this seem familiar. It will annoy the hell out of Tzu I expect. Lila Within non-dualism, Lila is a way of describing all reality, including the cosmos, as the outcome of creative play by the divine absolute (Brahman). Brahman is full of all perfections. And to say that Brahman has some purpose in creating the world will mean that it wants to attain through the process of creation something which it has not. And that is impossible. Hence, there can be no purpose of Brahman in creating the world. The world is a mere spontaneous creation of Brahman. It is a Lila, or sport, of Brahman. It is created out of Bliss, by Bliss and for Bliss. Lila indicates a spontaneous sportive activity of Brahman as distinguished from a self-conscious volitional effort. The concept of Lila signifies freedom as distinguished from necessity. —Ram Shanker Misra, The Integral Advaitism of Sri Aurobindo That is a wonderfully perfect description!
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