Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2015 14:46:57 GMT -5
Leave this place and never come back. Use all of your spare time to watch your mind. Delve deep into the space between thoughts. Follow the teaching of Ramana Maharshi; don't listen to anyone else.
Leave this place and never come back.
|
|
|
Post by earnest on Mar 9, 2015 15:07:37 GMT -5
Leave this place and never come back. Use all of your spare time to watch your mind. Delve deep into the space between thoughts. Follow the teaching of Ramana Maharshi; don't listen to anyone else. Leave this place and never come back. Heh heh heh (not a snippety laugh,. Just a happy and relaxed laugh)
|
|
|
Post by laughter on Mar 9, 2015 16:28:23 GMT -5
Leave this place and never come back. Use all of your spare time to watch your mind. Delve deep into the space between thoughts. Follow the teaching of Ramana Maharshi; don't listen to anyone else. Leave this place and never come back. Given the frequency of account resignation that happens here we're doin' pretty good!
|
|
|
Post by stardustpilgrim on Mar 9, 2015 17:41:38 GMT -5
Roy, just before I came here, I noticed some posts by a guy named michael sees (or michaelsees). He seems to have had a similar opinion. After reading his posts I was sorry he had gone, it would have been nice to have dialogued. Just saying.......
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2015 21:23:26 GMT -5
Leave this place and never come back. Use all of your spare time to watch your mind. Delve deep into the space between thoughts. Follow the teaching of Ramana Maharshi; don't listen to anyone else. Leave this place and never come back.Hi Roy, does that mean I shouldn't listen to you when you say to leave this place? Sorry to see you go though and wishing you all the best.
|
|
|
Post by zendancer on Mar 9, 2015 21:25:58 GMT -5
Roy, just before I came here, I noticed some posts by a guy named michael sees (or michaelsees). He seems to have had a similar opinion. After reading his posts I was sorry he had gone, it would have been nice to have dialogued. Just saying....... There is a backstory......but it's not mine to tell. Sometimes the heat inside the forum becomes more than one can stand. This is at least the fourth time that this has happened in the last five years. Retreating into bliss is obviously a lot safer than facing the truth, but advising others to cut and run is certainly a new twist. This brings to mind an interesting Zen story. A monk died, and when the monk's ZM saw the body laid out in preparation for cremation, he walked up, rapped the monk on the head three times with his hand, and said, "It's too bad. He knew how to die, but he didn't know how to live."
|
|
|
Post by Reefs on Mar 9, 2015 22:14:34 GMT -5
What is this bliss that needs protection, that is disturbed easily by sensory or mental stimulation and doesn't allow you to just go out into the world and romp and roam freely?
|
|
|
Post by zendancer on Mar 10, 2015 0:57:46 GMT -5
What is this bliss that needs protection, that is disturbed easily by sensory or mental stimulation and doesn't allow you to just go out into the world and romp and roam freely? Exactly. I hated to see Roy go because I thought he was a fascinating and likable guy, but pride is an exceedingly powerful thing. In this case, some of the forum's poking penetrated his self image and his understanding. He acknowledged that he had made a mistake with one of his statements, and afterwards, his whole house of cards became threatened with collapse. Rather than swallow his pride and possibly learn something, he fled to the safety of blissful silence. Who knows what will happen next? When the foundation of a thought structure becomes compromised, even slightly, anything becomes possible. In my first private one-on-one Zen interview in late 1984 I challenged the teacher, and got psychologically knocked on my a** by a single question. I was totally shocked. I knew that I had made some sort of mistake, but I couldn't see how to regain my balance (much less counterattack). I was so full of pride in my understanding that I couldn't admit defeat, so the Zen teacher jumped across the room and hit me with his Zen stick. Ha ha. Wow! Total devastation! I can still remember the shock of that encounter. I stumbled out of the interview room in a daze. The effect of the shock upon my ego was so great that a process began that is hard to appreciate unless it has been experienced. For the next 36 to 48 hours it felt like steel bands were wrapped around my chest that were slowly squeezing me in a tightening vise-like grip. The physical sensation was agonizing, and at one point I wondered if I might actually suffocate. Then, suddenly, like a balloon being punctured, the bottom of the mind fell out, and the crushing weight disappeared. Tears fell as I realized what I should have said to the Zen teacher. In retrospect I could only feel terrific admiration for the brilliance of the teacher's one question. Because other people who have fled from the forum have sometimes returned under another screen name (perhaps to see what is being said about them), I would like to say this: Roy, bliss is a wonderful experience, but what you ARE needs nothing, and is beyond all experiences and all states of mind. You are already just as whole and complete when you are putting out a fire as a fireman as when you are sitting in mental silence. Thousands of hours of practice, even if SR occurs, will give you nothing that you do not already have right this moment. Being a fireman who knows who he IS is far better than being a silent non-thinking guru whose doesn't know who he is. Let go of all ideas about how to become another Ramana Maharshi, and simply be what you are. The truth is always here and now. Find THAT and lasting peace will ensue. Find THAT and it won't matter whether the mind is silent or whether it thinks. With best wishes, and deep love, your own True Self.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 10, 2015 2:10:45 GMT -5
Leave this place and never come back. Use all of your spare time to watch your mind. Delve deep into the space between thoughts. Follow the teaching of Ramana Maharshi; don't listen to anyone else. Leave this place and never come back. I can't find fault with your advice. But you could just dip in now and again. This forum is really a philosophical discussion group. It's full of mental chatter which has little to do with spirituality and has no great appeal for me. I can't see myself contributing too much. I signed up and totally immersed myself in all the posts for a few days, but it's all pretty pointless because as you know it's the absence of mind that leads to your true nature, not delusional mind games . If everyone understood that it would be a very quiet forum I guess. But if your ego has been bruised a little bit, then as a follower of Ramana you know what he would say. ."Find out to whom the feeling of bruising arises". I wish you well. You have integrity.
|
|
|
Post by tzujanli on Mar 10, 2015 5:26:51 GMT -5
Roy, just before I came here, I noticed some posts by a guy named michael sees (or michaelsees). He seems to have had a similar opinion. After reading his posts I was sorry he had gone, it would have been nice to have dialogued. Just saying....... There is a backstory......but it's not mine to tell. Sometimes the heat inside the forum becomes more than one can stand. This is at least the fourth time that this has happened in the last five years. Retreating into bliss is obviously a lot safer than facing the truth, but advising others to cut and run is certainly a new twist. This brings to mind an interesting Zen story. A monk died, and when the monk's ZM saw the body laid out in preparation for cremation, he walked up, rapped the monk on the head three times with his hand, and said, "It's too bad. He knew how to die, but he didn't know how to live." The error is in the presumption of 'truth', it leaves no room for potential to reveal itself, it is stagnant.. people who come to this forum become 'wrong' if they don't acquiesce to the dominant belief system.. The monk story reveals the inherent arrogance in the 'truth' attachment..
|
|
|
Post by tenka on Mar 10, 2015 7:12:53 GMT -5
I think whats best for each individual in each moment is each to their own .
Sometimes it takes one to engage with the intellect to point out beyond the intellect or to become part of the drama / noise in order to promote silence .
If my memory serves me correctly regarding one supposed master mentions in his very own words to put his book down and find it all out for themselves, but instead of discontinuing the writing of his book to make an example of his comment he continued to write chapter after chapter .
I suppose there is something in staying and leaving, speaking and remaining silent .
|
|
|
Post by zendancer on Mar 10, 2015 7:28:08 GMT -5
There is a backstory......but it's not mine to tell. Sometimes the heat inside the forum becomes more than one can stand. This is at least the fourth time that this has happened in the last five years. Retreating into bliss is obviously a lot safer than facing the truth, but advising others to cut and run is certainly a new twist. This brings to mind an interesting Zen story. A monk died, and when the monk's ZM saw the body laid out in preparation for cremation, he walked up, rapped the monk on the head three times with his hand, and said, "It's too bad. He knew how to die, but he didn't know how to live." The error is in the presumption of 'truth', it leaves no room for potential to reveal itself, it is stagnant.. people who come to this forum become 'wrong' if they don't acquiesce to the dominant belief system.. The monk story reveals the inherent arrogance in the 'truth' attachment.. *yawn*
|
|
|
Post by stardustpilgrim on Mar 10, 2015 7:45:38 GMT -5
I'm going to do this one more time, give my context. (No ZD, I haven't changed. New to satchitananda, thanks for your kind words concerning my earlier post, but it smoothed off all the rough corners).
I'll start with a quote I put on the practice thread last night. On the back cover of the new book by Peter Ralston, Pursuing Consciousness, The Book of Enlightenment and Transformation. "Ralston....shows that enlightenment does not transform the self, and transforming the self does not produce enlightenment. Once we grasp that these two pursuits take place in entirely different domains of consciousness, we can use each to empower the other".
I'm not going to try to 'diagram' Roy's experience. The following is how my tradition gives a broader context. The higher exists, there is a ground of being, whatever it is (for the purposes of discussion, call it world 1). 'We' exist, in some manner, obviously. What is our relationship to the higher? For purposes of discussion, let's take three worlds, our world (for the purposes of discussion, world 3), the higher world (world 1), and a world that links them (for the purposes of discussion, world 2). For an ordinary person, there is no obvious link to the higher, because we have all types from 'atheists' to 'believers'. Why? Each world is in a very real sense, self-contained. This is because of the quantum nature of reality and the principle of discontinuity. There is a discontinuity between each world. Each world can be treated as an infinity, "zero-infinity". A picture of this is given by quantum theory with the famous term, quantum leap. For example, when an electron changes and moves from a lower orbit to a higher orbit, it absorbs a photon and leaps to the higher orbit, instantaneously without traversing either time or space. Likewise, movement from one world to a higher world is instantaneous, without traversing either time or space. In the New Testament this is referred to as "in the twinkling of an eye".
So how does one link the lower and the higher. The link has to be, figuratively, forged. Metaphorically, we could say a cup has to be forged, a cup which can receive the higher. (This comes from the Grail legends, but it is apt). The decent of the higher is known by many names, many used here, CC for example, another being grace. There is a zen story of the student sitting in meditation. ZM asks what he is doing. Disciple says, I'm meditating so as to become enlightened. So ZM picks up two bricks and begins rubbing them together. Student asks, what are you doing Master? ZM says, I'm rubbing these two bricks together to make a mirror. Student exclaims, Master, never will you make a mirror in such a manner, never. And ZM says, likewise, never will you reach enlightenment through meditation.
This is what ZD says, what E says, you will never reach the higher through anything the lower does. But likewise, they say they don't say to do nothing. I'm sure the ZM was not telling the student to quit meditating. But E says the purpose of practice is to show oneself that practice gets nowhere. I think ZD says something similar, maybe not precisely the same. But here is where we depart. I consider that interior "spiritual" practice has a very significant purpose, even though it doesn't directly lead to the higher. So for me, this is why what Roy had to say is of extreme value, his practice thread. In the individuation, what ZD and E says doesn't actually exist but is merely an appearance in non-separation, is ~self~, there is a potential that does not now exist. I say self is not merely an appearance in non-duality, but is real in a real sense, and has purpose. This potential is what links the lower to the higher, but there isn't a link unless the potential is actualized. Now, exteriorly, this middle world exists (but invisibly in a higher dimension), it links the lower world with the higher world, one could say it is the river of life that flows from the ground of being to our world.
So what does interior spiritual practice do? It forges the cup which can receive and touch the higher influences of world 1. So, the "cup" results from practice, corresponds, in ourselves, to world 2, so links world 3 ("us") with world 1. So, on its on, no individuated "person" can reach the higher (world 1). [This can happen, but for it to happen, the "person" doesn't 'enter' world 1, consciously (this would be CC "experience")...but the point is that it merely happens. Forging the cup is in a real sense, taking merely happening out of the equation, and, allowing entering, consciously. The "cup" is a real 'invitation', in a manner of speaking].
Now, I'm not going to argue this view, I'm just sharing. It gives a different context than "hardcore" non-duality. Hardcore non-duality would say that world 3 is the whole. How would one know any different, as world 3 is in a very real sense a self-contained zero-infinity world. FAPP it is the whole. But it isn't the Whole. But this is likewise why I say I never deny anyone's personal experience or non-experience or realizations. In this post I am giving a different context for them.
And this is really just a simplified version. We are all somewhere on a continuum. Arguing who's above who or who's below who really achieves nothing. I'm just presenting this as a thought to consider that some (any) one might 'think' they are "experiencing" the whole, when they are really only experiencing 'one world' and are actually stuck really 'believing' there is no 'place' else to go, when there is. There is always "further". In the vastness, there are unknown unknowns.
Last edit: The Whole of reality is like a set of Russian dolls, is holographic in nature. It appears the doll is the whole, but you open it, and there is a doll inside. And it looks like that doll is the whole, but you open it and there is another doll inside it. And it appears to be the whole. Now one could just stop there and 'play' with that doll, and think it's the whole, but if you were to open it, there is another doll inside, and it looks like the doll it was in. There is always further, unknown unknowns in the vastness......
|
|
|
Post by stardustpilgrim on Mar 10, 2015 8:07:21 GMT -5
There is a backstory......but it's not mine to tell. Sometimes the heat inside the forum becomes more than one can stand. This is at least the fourth time that this has happened in the last five years. Retreating into bliss is obviously a lot safer than facing the truth, but advising others to cut and run is certainly a new twist. This brings to mind an interesting Zen story. A monk died, and when the monk's ZM saw the body laid out in preparation for cremation, he walked up, rapped the monk on the head three times with his hand, and said, "It's too bad. He knew how to die, but he didn't know how to live." The error is in the presumption of 'truth', it leaves no room for potential to reveal itself, it is stagnant.. people who come to this forum become 'wrong' if they don't acquiesce to the dominant belief system.. The monk story reveals the inherent arrogance in the 'truth' attachment.. Bingo!
|
|
|
Post by stardustpilgrim on Mar 10, 2015 8:08:37 GMT -5
The error is in the presumption of 'truth', it leaves no room for potential to reveal itself, it is stagnant.. people who come to this forum become 'wrong' if they don't acquiesce to the dominant belief system.. The monk story reveals the inherent arrogance in the 'truth' attachment.. *yawn*
|
|