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Post by Deleted on Mar 4, 2015 21:35:05 GMT -5
And how do you do your not doing. Who is not doing it? I'm talking about self-realization, not about moving thru maya. Of course there's a lot of doing and thinking happening right now. But what does that have to do with self-realizion? Self-realization is a happening, acausal and therefore never the result of a doing. Self-realization is always just a breath away, no matter who you are or what you are doing or what you've done. Your spiritual resume and spiritual brownie points are totally irrelevant. So, as a way to still the mind, shifting awareness can be useful. But as a means to self-realization, that's a misconception of what self-realization is. I am also talking about Self Realization. You talk about the misconception of it as if it were a concept, or a happening. It is not. A happening consists of boundaries, SR does not. It is not a breath away because there is no distance involved. Consider your immediate experience. That is all you have. I do not recall sending you my resume.
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Post by Reefs on Mar 4, 2015 21:37:55 GMT -5
I'm talking about self-realization, not about moving thru maya. Of course there's a lot of doing and thinking happening right now. But what does that have to do with self-realizion? Self-realization is a happening, acausal and therefore never the result of a doing. Self-realization is always just a breath away, no matter who you are or what you are doing or what you've done. Your spiritual resume and spiritual brownie points are totally irrelevant. So, as a way to still the mind, shifting awareness can be useful. But as a means to self-realization, that's a misconception of what self-realization is. I am also talking about Self Realization. You talk about the misconception of it as if it were a concept, or a happening. It is not. A happening consists of boundaries, SF does not. It is not a breath away because there is no distance involved. Consider your immediate experience. That is all you have. I do not recall sending you my resume. Then what was this samadhi talk about?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 4, 2015 21:41:52 GMT -5
I am also talking about Self Realization. You talk about the misconception of it as if it were a concept, or a happening. It is not. A happening consists of boundaries, SF does not. It is not a breath away because there is no distance involved. Consider your immediate experience. That is all you have. I do not recall sending you my resume. Then what was this samadhi talk about? It was about samadhi?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 4, 2015 21:42:14 GMT -5
If this thread is supposed to be about what to do concerning practice, well let's talk about it. Everything I say is concerned only with what is experiential.
Does anyone wish to challenge the following statement before I move on?
"Turning the attention back to simple awareness cultivates direct knowingness of the distinction between awareness and thought".
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Post by Deleted on Mar 4, 2015 21:48:59 GMT -5
I want to say something about effortlessness. To anyone who is getting anxious about the contradiction of doing something to get somewhere that is beyond doing and feels conflicted, then all I can say is just put it on the shelf for now. Don't let intellect get in the way.
It's important to say that any practice relies on the intrinsic nature of mind to settle down to what you could call it's natural state of silence. If that wasn't the case, you would be wasting your time.
Imagine you enter a room full of people who are all talking. At first it sounds like a babble of voices. Nothing is intelligible . But then you pick up a little snippet of conversation from one person which attracts your attention. Notice how your mind in a totally effortless way turns the attention to that one person and ignores all the other conversations automatically. There is no conscious decision that says, I must now focus on what this person is saying. No, it happens because there is an attraction there. There is also an attraction for the mind to become quiet when you turn the attention back to the source. You could say that the mind has a natural tendency to turn back to its own nature given the opportunity, an entropic process of complexity dissolving into simplicity.
When most people talk of a practice such as meditation, it is spoken of as something you do, a practice. But strictly speaking it is not a practice. Meditation is something that happens when the mind becomes quiet and one pointed. This is called samadhi.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 4, 2015 22:03:12 GMT -5
If this thread is supposed to be about what to do concerning practice, well let's talk about it. Everything I say is concerned only with what is experiential. Does anyone wish to challenge the following statement before I move on? "Turning the attention back to simple awareness cultivates direct knowingness of the distinction between awareness and thought".Hi satchitananda, I would say you nailed it right there.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 4, 2015 22:20:52 GMT -5
I want to say something about effortlessness. To anyone who is getting anxious about the contradiction of doing something to get somewhere that is beyond doing and feels conflicted, then all I can say is just put it on the shelf for now. Don't let intellect get in the way. It's important to say that any practice relies on the intrinsic nature of mind to settle down to what you could call it's natural state of silence. If that wasn't the case, you would be wasting your time. Imagine you enter a room full of people who are all talking. At first it sounds like a babble of voices. Nothing is intelligible . But then you pick up a little snippet of conversation from one person which attracts your attention. Notice how your mind in a totally effortless way turns the attention to that one person and ignores all the other conversations automatically. There is no conscious decision that says, I must now focus on what this person is saying. No, it happens because there is an attraction there. There is also an attraction for the mind to become quiet when you turn the attention back to the source. You could say that the mind has a natural tendency to turn back to its own nature given the opportunity, an entropic process of complexity dissolving into simplicity. When most people talk of a practice such as meditation, it is spoken of as something you do, a practice. But strictly speaking it is not a practice. Meditation is something that happens when the mind becomes quiet and one pointed. This is called samadhi. Hi again, yes, of course there is always the possibility that nothing precipitates Self-Realization. That rather it is a natural unfolding of Being/Knowing. And that the mind when it returns will always affirm a cause for that happening, be it a practice if someone was a practitioner or meditation if someone was a meditator, or even a rock hitting me in the head while at the bus stop. Is that not a possibility?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 4, 2015 22:26:42 GMT -5
I want to say something about effortlessness. To anyone who is getting anxious about the contradiction of doing something to get somewhere that is beyond doing and feels conflicted, then all I can say is just put it on the shelf for now. Don't let intellect get in the way. It's important to say that any practice relies on the intrinsic nature of mind to settle down to what you could call it's natural state of silence. If that wasn't the case, you would be wasting your time. Imagine you enter a room full of people who are all talking. At first it sounds like a babble of voices. Nothing is intelligible . But then you pick up a little snippet of conversation from one person which attracts your attention. Notice how your mind in a totally effortless way turns the attention to that one person and ignores all the other conversations automatically. There is no conscious decision that says, I must now focus on what this person is saying. No, it happens because there is an attraction there. There is also an attraction for the mind to become quiet when you turn the attention back to the source. You could say that the mind has a natural tendency to turn back to its own nature given the opportunity, an entropic process of complexity dissolving into simplicity. When most people talk of a practice such as meditation, it is spoken of as something you do, a practice. But strictly speaking it is not a practice. Meditation is something that happens when the mind becomes quiet and one pointed. This is called samadhi. Hi again, yes, of course there is always the possibility that nothing precipitates Self-Realization. That rather it is a natural unfolding of Being/Knowing. And that the mind when it returns will always affirm a cause for that happening, be it a practice if someone was a practitioner or meditation if someone was a meditator, or even a rock hitting me in the head while at the bus stop. Is that not a possibility? Absolutely
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Post by Deleted on Mar 4, 2015 23:03:13 GMT -5
I want to say something about effortlessness. To anyone who is getting anxious about the contradiction of doing something to get somewhere that is beyond doing and feels conflicted, then all I can say is just put it on the shelf for now. Don't let intellect get in the way. It's important to say that any practice relies on the intrinsic nature of mind to settle down to what you could call it's natural state of silence. If that wasn't the case, you would be wasting your time. Imagine you enter a room full of people who are all talking. At first it sounds like a babble of voices. Nothing is intelligible . But then you pick up a little snippet of conversation from one person which attracts your attention. Notice how your mind in a totally effortless way turns the attention to that one person and ignores all the other conversations automatically. There is no conscious decision that says, I must now focus on what this person is saying. No, it happens because there is an attraction there. There is also an attraction for the mind to become quiet when you turn the attention back to the source. You could say that the mind has a natural tendency to turn back to its own nature given the opportunity, an entropic process of complexity dissolving into simplicity. When most people talk of a practice such as meditation, it is spoken of as something you do, a practice. But strictly speaking it is not a practice. Meditation is something that happens when the mind becomes quiet and one pointed. This is called samadhi. So You need to turn the attention? It's an action from your side? Or it's a automatic happening?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 4, 2015 23:05:01 GMT -5
I want to say something about effortlessness. To anyone who is getting anxious about the contradiction of doing something to get somewhere that is beyond doing and feels conflicted, then all I can say is just put it on the shelf for now. Don't let intellect get in the way. It's important to say that any practice relies on the intrinsic nature of mind to settle down to what you could call it's natural state of silence. If that wasn't the case, you would be wasting your time. Imagine you enter a room full of people who are all talking. At first it sounds like a babble of voices. Nothing is intelligible . But then you pick up a little snippet of conversation from one person which attracts your attention. Notice how your mind in a totally effortless way turns the attention to that one person and ignores all the other conversations automatically. There is no conscious decision that says, I must now focus on what this person is saying. No, it happens because there is an attraction there. There is also an attraction for the mind to become quiet when you turn the attention back to the source. You could say that the mind has a natural tendency to turn back to its own nature given the opportunity, an entropic process of complexity dissolving into simplicity. When most people talk of a practice such as meditation, it is spoken of as something you do, a practice. But strictly speaking it is not a practice. Meditation is something that happens when the mind becomes quiet and one pointed. This is called samadhi. So You need to turn the attention? It's an action from your side? Or it's a automatic happening? It is both.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 4, 2015 23:23:45 GMT -5
So You need to turn the attention? It's an action from your side? Or it's a automatic happening? It is both. If it's an action of yours, then you are expressing the separateness. It's the new creation to mind. You don't need to do anything here, problem happens, mistake happens to remove the problem,realization happen that nothing can be done. It all happens by itself. We are not responsible to do anything to attain anything. Impersonal level movement has it's own order.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 4, 2015 23:38:06 GMT -5
You are incorrect. There is both impersonal and personal. There is the absolute aspect and the manifest expression of the relative aspect. But all is ultimately consciousness.. As you type out your statement on the computer is it a choice or is it automatic. What is your experience? You are just expressing an idea to conform to your belief that there is some abstract idea of impersonal movement with its own order. This is actually true but you are only expressing an idea of it. If you really knew this as direct knowing you would not ask. You're making the mistake of thinking that by saying Neti Neti (not this not this) all the time that somehow it will take on its absolute aspect which right now is just an idea in your imagination which you endlessly repeat in your posts.
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Post by enigma on Mar 4, 2015 23:45:35 GMT -5
To put awareness on that which is aware, you have to objectify it. If you are lucky, you lose interest in that mind game and suddenly slide back into the natural state the moment you lose interest and stop applying yourself. If you are not lucky, you could spend decades in meditation without getting anywhere - as most do. Although the phrase Roy uses about putting awareness on that which moves awareness is a little confusing, I don't think he is objectifying it. When you talk of losing interest in the mind game your starting point is exactly the same. There is an intention or effort in what you are both saying. But it is the natural tendency of mind to settle that becomes that which is effortless. If you dive into a pool it is only necessary to assume the correct position, but gravity does the rest. You cannot put yourself in the position of questioning someone because they are apparently doing something and you are not thereby creating the impression you are more authentic in your non doing because you speak of not applying yourself. You are also applying yourself. This is just wordplay. Perhaps the distinction is between prescription and description. "Lose interest in that mind game" really cannot be a prescription. How would one go about losing interest except to realize what is being pointed to in calling it a mind game? This is why the boundaries of practices are pointed out. Not to offer another practice of practice stopping, but to point to the realization that mind is playing yet another game to avoid noticing what is already here, now.
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Post by enigma on Mar 4, 2015 23:52:14 GMT -5
I'm talking about self-realization, not about moving thru maya. Of course there's a lot of doing and thinking happening right now. But what does that have to do with self-realizion? Self-realization is a happening, acausal and therefore never the result of a doing. Self-realization is always just a breath away, no matter who you are or what you are doing or what you've done. Your spiritual resume and spiritual brownie points are totally irrelevant. So, as a way to still the mind, shifting awareness can be useful. But as a means to self-realization, that's a misconception of what self-realization is. I am also talking about Self Realization. You talk about the misconception of it as if it were a concept, or a happening. It is not. A happening consists of boundaries, SR does not. It is not a breath away because there is no distance involved. Consider your immediate experience. That is all you have. I do not recall sending you my resume.Well, there's always lots of confusion, what with all the addressing and stamp licking and such. It's no wonder we forget where they all went, right?
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Post by enigma on Mar 5, 2015 0:22:22 GMT -5
I want to say something about effortlessness. To anyone who is getting anxious about the contradiction of doing something to get somewhere that is beyond doing and feels conflicted, then all I can say is just put it on the shelf for now. Don't let intellect get in the way. It's important to say that any practice relies on the intrinsic nature of mind to settle down to what you could call it's natural state of silence. If that wasn't the case, you would be wasting your time. Imagine you enter a room full of people who are all talking. At first it sounds like a babble of voices. Nothing is intelligible . But then you pick up a little snippet of conversation from one person which attracts your attention. Notice how your mind in a totally effortless way turns the attention to that one person and ignores all the other conversations automatically. There is no conscious decision that says, I must now focus on what this person is saying. No, it happens because there is an attraction there. There is also an attraction for the mind to become quiet when you turn the attention back to the source. You could say that the mind has a natural tendency to turn back to its own nature given the opportunity, an entropic process of complexity dissolving into simplicity. When most people talk of a practice such as meditation, it is spoken of as something you do, a practice. But strictly speaking it is not a practice. Meditation is something that happens when the mind becomes quiet and one pointed. This is called samadhi. Hi again, yes, of course there is always the possibility that nothing precipitates Self-Realization. That rather it is a natural unfolding of Being/Knowing. And that the mind when it returns will always affirm a cause for that happening, be it a practice if someone was a practitioner or meditation if someone was a meditator, or even a rock hitting me in the head while at the bus stop. Is that not a possibility? It's true, but it can be useful to see why. The Self realized 'state' is the natural state, and it should be mentioned that because it is the natural state, it is not really a state at all, as all states are mind states superimposed on this natural 'state'. And so Self realization is the realization of that prior non-state, before any effort, before any mind state or movement or objectification or identification or knowledge about anything. As such, this 'prior non-state' is always present as the foundation for everything else. You are 'standing' on it/in it/ as it, as you practice and search and effort. You are looking from it/ as it as you search and inquire, and so it is never lost or missing or even hiding. The ground you stand on isn't hiding from you, and nothing needs to cause it to appear, and it's not unreasonable to say that no ground searching practice or path is actually going to lead you to the ground you're standing on, or even make it more obvious. It's merely a matter of noticing the obvious, and not noticing the obvious is not really a consequence of not doing enough practice, though being still long enough to notice can be helpful. The whole thing is far more subtle than much of the practice talk would imply. Stand still on the ground, and you are already home. If someone tells you to go looking somewhere else, this is going to be a distraction. There's nowhere to go. You're already here.
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