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Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2015 12:10:47 GMT -5
Reefs, thanks, but if it is not an experience, how would you know? You know that you've had a realization just like you know that you've had an experience. Hi laughter, yes, I think the difference though, is that the knowing of an experience is an objective experience, I see a tree, while the knowing of realization is an non-objective experience, but it is still an experience. In other words, to me, the knowing of objects is not the same as the knowing of non-objects. But they are both experienced.
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Post by andrew on Feb 28, 2015 12:25:58 GMT -5
You know that you've had a realization just like you know that you've had an experience. Hi laughter, yes, I think the difference though, is that the knowing of an experience is an objective experience and the knowing of realization is an non-objective experience, but it is still an experience. In other words, to me, the knowing of objects is not the same as the knowing of non-objects. But they are both experienced.[/quote *** Yes. I understand and resonate with the idea that realization is not an experience, but I would find it odd if someone said that realization didn't happen as part OF experience. I was interested to read that samadhi registers at 7hz...did you read that somewhere? I am not saying you are wrong, I just hadn't heard that. I do know that advanced meditators (buddhist monks) often register a 'gamma' brainwave, which is up around the 40 hz mark, which interestingly suggests that thought speeds up rather than slows down. Similarly, people diagnosed with ADHD have experienced soothing results by speeding up the brainwaves slightly rather than slowing it down, which runs somewhat counter to what one might expect. I like the 7hz brainwave but don't like going lower into delta.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2015 12:35:26 GMT -5
Hi andrew, I'm actually saying to me, realization is a non-objective experience, as opposed to an objective experience, but it is an experience none the less.
The 7 Hz number is not accurate, but reflects a settling down of brain wave activity, as opposed to the hyper revved up brain activity of a schizophrenic.
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Post by andrew on Feb 28, 2015 12:42:05 GMT -5
Hi andrew, I'm actually saying to me, realization is a non-objective experience, as opposed to an objective experience, but it is an experience none the less. The 7 Hz number is not accurate, but reflects a settling down of brain wave activity, as opposed to the hyper revved up brain activity of a schizophrenic. yup I understood what you meant and think it's a good way to talk about it. Thanks for clarifying the 7hz. I don't often mess around with brain waves these days but I rate omharmonics (though they are expensive). I noticed a little while back that someone had uploaded their music onto youtube, though it may not be there for long.
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Post by tenka on Feb 28, 2015 14:46:36 GMT -5
The moment you think you are ... you are not ...
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Post by laughter on Feb 28, 2015 15:30:37 GMT -5
The moment you think you are ... you are not ... Exactamente. I've noticed this motion myself in myself when first corresponding with peeps on the interwebs ... a vague sense of seeking some sort of validation, and really, that's quite hard to miss if one is involved in any sort of interior investigation of any level of intensity. If you have to ask, the question is obviously ... no!. (** straight face **) That's what I take the Shoju-Haikun story to be at least partially about. ... and that's what Sahdguru makes pretty clear. If you know, you know, and it really doesn't matter what anyone's opinion of that knowing is.
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Post by Reefs on Mar 3, 2015 0:10:32 GMT -5
Self-realization is unconditional, acausal and not an experience and therefore not a state (of mind). Reefs, thanks, but if it is not an experience, how would you know? As Sadhguruji says, you can't miss it. It's self-evident. And once it happened, that will be the end of such questions.
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Post by Reefs on Mar 3, 2015 0:13:18 GMT -5
You know that you've had a realization just like you know that you've had an experience. Hi laughter, yes, I think the difference though, is that the knowing of an experience is an objective experience, I see a tree, while the knowing of realization is an non-objective experience, but it is still an experience. In other words, to me, the knowing of objects is not the same as the knowing of non-objects. But they are both experienced. Experiences can be remembered, conveyed to others and created at will. You can't do that with realization.
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Post by Reefs on Mar 3, 2015 0:13:58 GMT -5
The moment you think you are ... you are not ... Sum ergo cogito!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 3, 2015 3:52:30 GMT -5
Hi Reefs, thanks for your response. I thought Samadhi was a state for Self-Realization? What do you mean by finding alignment? If a mechanical means is competent to make me realize the Self, then I don't see a problem. To me any means that can enable the consciousness to rest in itself, by freeing itself from the attachment to the body, senses and even the mind, seems like a good thing. That being said, I agree of course that the natural way is always the best way. Source: Samadhi is a state of mind, an experience with a beginning and an end, so it has nothing to do with Self-realization. There are two types of Samadhi--relative and absolute--but both states are transitory. Absolute Samadhi occurs in deep meditation, and is a form of unity consciousness. Zen calls it "the dropping off of body and mind." Everything disappears (both selfhood and the external world), and only pure awareness remains. This state can last from a few minutes up to several hours, but eventually the meditator returns to a "normal" sense of being in the world. If the body/mind experiencing absolute Samadhi is not Self-realized, then upon exiting Samadhi s/he returns to a sense of being a "me in here" looking at a "world out there." If the body/mind is Self-realized, then the experience is perceived as being part of the unified flow that is always impersonally unfolding. If there was a drug that put someone into a state of cosmic consciousness (a different form of unity consciousness than Samadhi), sooner or later the drug would wear off, and selfhood would return. Until the illusion of selfhood is seen through, it will keep re-appearing. There are people who have had numerous experiences of both Samadhi and cosmic consciousness, but until the illusion of selfhood is seen through, they keep returning to a sense of being someone "in here" who had experiences of unity consciousness. Realization eliminates belief in the "in here"/"out there" dichotomy. Permanently established samadhi is Self Realization. It is called sahaja samadhi as opposed to nirvikalpa samadhi which is temporary.
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Post by Ishtahota on Mar 3, 2015 10:36:40 GMT -5
If you have to ask then you are not.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 3, 2015 13:31:48 GMT -5
Reefs, thanks, but if it is not an experience, how would you know? As Sadhguruji says, you can't miss it. It's self-evident. And once it happened, that will be the end of such questions. Hi reefs, yeah, it's self-evident, meaning to me, that it's a non-objective experience.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 3, 2015 13:34:48 GMT -5
Hi laughter, yes, I think the difference though, is that the knowing of an experience is an objective experience, I see a tree, while the knowing of realization is an non-objective experience, but it is still an experience. In other words, to me, the knowing of objects is not the same as the knowing of non-objects. But they are both experienced. Experiences can be remembered, conveyed to others and created at will. You can't do that with realization.reefs, yeah you can't do that with Self-Realization, that's because you don't need to.
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Post by Reefs on Mar 4, 2015 12:26:57 GMT -5
Source: Samadhi is a state of mind, an experience with a beginning and an end, so it has nothing to do with Self-realization. There are two types of Samadhi--relative and absolute--but both states are transitory. Absolute Samadhi occurs in deep meditation, and is a form of unity consciousness. Zen calls it "the dropping off of body and mind." Everything disappears (both selfhood and the external world), and only pure awareness remains. This state can last from a few minutes up to several hours, but eventually the meditator returns to a "normal" sense of being in the world. If the body/mind experiencing absolute Samadhi is not Self-realized, then upon exiting Samadhi s/he returns to a sense of being a "me in here" looking at a "world out there." If the body/mind is Self-realized, then the experience is perceived as being part of the unified flow that is always impersonally unfolding. If there was a drug that put someone into a state of cosmic consciousness (a different form of unity consciousness than Samadhi), sooner or later the drug would wear off, and selfhood would return. Until the illusion of selfhood is seen through, it will keep re-appearing. There are people who have had numerous experiences of both Samadhi and cosmic consciousness, but until the illusion of selfhood is seen through, they keep returning to a sense of being someone "in here" who had experiences of unity consciousness. Realization eliminates belief in the "in here"/"out there" dichotomy. Permanently established samadhi is Self Realization. It is called sahaja samadhi as opposed to nirvikalpa samadhi which is temporary. Self-realization means knowing who you are, what is real. You don't have to become a samunkie.
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Post by laughter on Mar 4, 2015 12:29:43 GMT -5
If you have to ask then you are not. Simple like that yeah, but the sad guru was addressing a subtly different question.
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