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Post by zin on Mar 11, 2015 17:43:26 GMT -5
OK, the first thing on my mind: I have no idea about what I was trying to say by 'particularization'. It seemed so important then, now I don't know. Will does not seem divided. There *are* individuals but the will is undivided. I know this also is contradictory to some thing. And what is the current situation (of wars, etc) if will is not divided? Anyway.. it is just that today is like that (for me). I'm going to take this post as an opportunity to comment on the movement of the wholeness question. The "non-dual" perspective is that because of non-separation, everything anyone does is a manifestation of the Whole. This just seems quite bizarre to me. For example, the Hitler question keeps coming up. The universe or the earth or whatever needed a "Hitler" so Hitler was "manifested. I don't get why Oneness needed Germany to kill 6 million Jews and 12 million total. I don't get why the universe needed Stalin to kill millions of his own people to keep power. I don't get why the universe needs ISIS and other terrorists to kill thousands of people for an ideology. I could go on and on, but point made. Does merely the idea of separation kill people? I don't think the manifestation of Wholeness kills people, people kill people.....and nasty people in power can kill a lot of people...... (Sorry z, I didn't mean to derail your post)........but I think you make an excellent point......... I'm not sure about what nonduality is saying, I myself am not saying "The universe or the earth or whatever needed a "Hitler" so Hitler was manifested." ...But "everything anyone does is a manifestation of the Whole" does not mean "the universe needed a Hitler" to me.. may think about this later...
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Post by zin on Mar 11, 2015 17:58:01 GMT -5
Hi source.. You are talking about personalities by saying particularization. I was talking about a more initial thing but I admit I am not clear even to myself. Laughter later wrote: "How will becomes particularized can be commonly understood in terms of the laws of nature, but there is a not so subtle mistake in that idea. What particularizes is a question that is self-inquiry in disguise." I don't know, what is a mistake in the idea (of seeing self preservation as at least related to particularization).. or what is the mistake in taking natural laws as part of particularization (I will faint if I write that word one more time ) .. For me mind is only one part of the event. I mean the personal likes, dislikes, preferences, daily acts etc... I think I just can't bear the idea of dissolving of appearances. Will think about it a bit more. Hi zindarud, for me appearances, meaning the world, dissolves every night in sleep, and I'm not only not concerned about it, but actually look forward to it. I get to put the world down and enjoy the freedom it affords me. It allows me the rest and peace to pick the world back up again in the morning, refreshed and with new eyes. Yes it is nice but one usually assumes that one *will* wake up in the morning.. But again, I can say that I am not as anxious now as I was when I wrote it.. thanks.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2015 18:06:46 GMT -5
Hi zindarud, for me appearances, meaning the world, dissolves every night in sleep, and I'm not only not concerned about it, but actually look forward to it. I get to put the world down and enjoy the freedom it affords me. It allows me the rest and peace to pick the world back up again in the morning, refreshed and with new eyes. Yes it is nice but one usually assumes that one *will* wake up in the morning.. But again, I can say that I am not as anxious now as I was when I wrote it.. thanks. Good, but you actually love deep sleep don't you? The peace, tranquility and harmony. If you never woke up again would that be such a bad reality to live in?
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Post by zin on Mar 11, 2015 18:09:27 GMT -5
Yes it is nice but one usually assumes that one *will* wake up in the morning.. But again, I can say that I am not as anxious now as I was when I wrote it.. thanks. Good, but you actually love deep sleep don't you? The peace, tranquility and harmony. If you never woke up again would that be such a bad reality to live in? It's not bad for the who doesn't wake up, but for the others.. (family etc)..
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2015 18:11:20 GMT -5
I'm going to take this post as an opportunity to comment on the movement of the wholeness question. The "non-dual" perspective is that because of non-separation, everything anyone does is a manifestation of the Whole. This just seems quite bizarre to me. For example, the Hitler question keeps coming up. The universe or the earth or whatever needed a "Hitler" so Hitler was "manifested. I don't get why Oneness needed Germany to kill 6 million Jews and 12 million total. I don't get why the universe needed Stalin to kill millions of his own people to keep power. I don't get why the universe needs ISIS and other terrorists to kill thousands of people for an ideology. I could go on and on, but point made. Does merely the idea of separation kill people? I don't think the manifestation of Wholeness kills people, people kill people.....and nasty people in power can kill a lot of people...... (Sorry z, I didn't mean to derail your post)........but I think you make an excellent point......... I'm not sure about what nonduality is saying, I myself am not saying "The universe or the earth or whatever needed a "Hitler" so Hitler was manifested." ...But "everything anyone does is a manifestation of the Whole" does not mean "the universe needed a Hitler" to me.. may think about this later... Ask yourself, whether the Universe needing anything, is nothing more than a mind-made conclusion.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2015 18:12:25 GMT -5
Good, but you actually love deep sleep don't you? The peace, tranquility and harmony. If you never woke up again would that be such a bad reality to live in? It's not bad for the who doesn't wake up, but for the others.. (family etc).. Why wouldn't it be good for them, don't they go to sleep each night? Where are you when they fall asleep?
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Post by zin on Mar 11, 2015 18:17:11 GMT -5
It's not bad for the who doesn't wake up, but for the others.. (family etc).. Why wouldn't it be good for them, don't they go to sleep each night? Where are you when they fall asleep? Are you speaking of death like I am doing here? and asking, why is someone's death not good for their family?
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Post by zin on Mar 11, 2015 18:30:14 GMT -5
OK, the first thing on my mind: I have no idea about what I was trying to say by 'particularization'. It seemed so important then, now I don't know. Will does not seem divided. There *are* individuals but the will is undivided. I know this also is contradictory to some thing. And what is the current situation (of wars, etc) if will is not divided? Anyway.. it is just that today is like that (for me). There's no answer to the apparent contradiction to be had by logic or reasoning or even by love, by the heart ... our feelings on the issue will ever be as divided as our conclusions. But the fact remains that the contradiction is only apparent. Ideas that lead to a comfort and familiarity with the contradiction are a hindrance. Explaining it away, or even just accepting it, are only ever a temporary fix. Where are the ideas that lead to comfort, familiarity, etc.. What I see, feel, think, and live are aall different - from each other! But you say it's only apparent.. That means poem time ..
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2015 19:15:41 GMT -5
Why wouldn't it be good for them, don't they go to sleep each night? Where are you when they fall asleep? Are you speaking of death like I am doing here? and asking, why is someone's death not good for their family? zindarud, no I'm not talking about death. I'm talking about going to sleep. Sleep is good for everyone. But that's just my opinion.
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Post by laughter on Mar 11, 2015 20:57:04 GMT -5
I'm going to take this post as an opportunity to comment on the movement of the wholeness question. The "non-dual" perspective is that because of non-separation, everything anyone does is a manifestation of the Whole. This just seems quite bizarre to me. For example, the Hitler question keeps coming up. The universe or the earth or whatever needed a "Hitler" so Hitler was "manifested. I don't get why Oneness needed Germany to kill 6 million Jews and 12 million total. I don't get why the universe needed Stalin to kill millions of his own people to keep power. I don't get why the universe needs ISIS and other terrorists to kill thousands of people for an ideology. I could go on and on, but point made. Does merely the idea of separation kill people? I don't think the manifestation of Wholeness kills people, people kill people.....and nasty people in power can kill a lot of people...... (Sorry z, I didn't mean to derail your post)........but I think you make an excellent point......... I'm not sure about what nonduality is saying, I myself am not saying "The universe or the earth or whatever needed a "Hitler" so Hitler was manifested." ...But "everything anyone does is a manifestation of the Whole" does not mean "the universe needed a Hitler" to me.. may think about this later... It's a classic. Peeps play the Hitler card as a knee-jerk reaction to the pointer of not two and it always belies that they're not responding to the pointing, just misconceived notions about it.
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Post by laughter on Mar 11, 2015 21:20:27 GMT -5
There's no answer to the apparent contradiction to be had by logic or reasoning or even by love, by the heart ... our feelings on the issue will ever be as divided as our conclusions. But the fact remains that the contradiction is only apparent. Ideas that lead to a comfort and familiarity with the contradiction are a hindrance. Explaining it away, or even just accepting it, are only ever a temporary fix. Where are the ideas that lead to comfort, familiarity, etc.. What I see, feel, think, and live are aall different - from each other! But you say it's only apparent.. That means poem time .. The ideas that lead to comfort are the ones that purport to explain our existence. Most people, if you ask them, have an idea of reality that involves the notion of material realism in some way, fashion or form, and my guess is it's that you're confronting with your discomfort at the idea of appearances dissolving. But you see, the kitchen table remains there, solid, sturdy, unmoving, regardless for our explanation of how or why it got to be or continues to be that way. The qualities of our perceptions are one thing. The ideas about any of it are another matter, and those ideas, no matter what they are, are what obscure and hinder self-inquiry.
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Post by zin on Mar 12, 2015 4:21:09 GMT -5
Are you speaking of death like I am doing here? and asking, why is someone's death not good for their family? zindarud, no I'm not talking about death. I'm talking about going to sleep. Sleep is good for everyone. But that's just my opinion. OK.
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Post by zin on Mar 12, 2015 6:00:35 GMT -5
Where are the ideas that lead to comfort, familiarity, etc.. What I see, feel, think, and live are aall different - from each other! But you say it's only apparent.. That means poem time .. The ideas that lead to comfort are the ones that purport to explain our existence. Most people, if you ask them, have an idea of reality that involves the notion of material realism in some way, fashion or form, and my guess is it's that you're confronting with your discomfort at the idea of appearances dissolving. But you see, the kitchen table remains there, solid, sturdy, unmoving, regardless for our explanation of how or why it got to be or continues to be that way. The qualities of our perceptions are one thing. The ideas about any of it are another matter, and those ideas, no matter what they are, are what obscure and hinder self-inquiry. "Ideas about perceptions".. History is one set, right? It helps in understanding 'will'.. (ok, may not be good for self-inquiry)
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Post by laughter on Mar 12, 2015 11:42:11 GMT -5
The ideas that lead to comfort are the ones that purport to explain our existence. Most people, if you ask them, have an idea of reality that involves the notion of material realism in some way, fashion or form, and my guess is it's that you're confronting with your discomfort at the idea of appearances dissolving. But you see, the kitchen table remains there, solid, sturdy, unmoving, regardless for our explanation of how or why it got to be or continues to be that way. The qualities of our perceptions are one thing. The ideas about any of it are another matter, and those ideas, no matter what they are, are what obscure and hinder self-inquiry. "Ideas about perceptions".. History is one set, right? It helps in understanding 'will'.. (ok, may not be good for self-inquiry) History, science and math are the source of some of my favorite conceptual structures about appearances, and the mind can actively engage with these and find reflections of where nonduality points. For example, the fact that all the various forms we see are interconnected in some way is a shadowy reflection of the absence of separation expressed in terms of the monism of the Universe. Also, it's an obvious understatement to recognize how useful models of mind can be from a practical perspective. For instance, without the fields of electronics and software engineering we wouldn't be having this dialog. There's also the connections that can be made mind-to-mind on a deeper level through art, and the Sufi material that you and glimmer have put up recently are stellar examples of that. None of that need be rejected, and in fact, if any of it is there's a split-mind process that's going on. All of it is useful in terms of figuring out what we are, but only indirectly, as what it is that we are isn't expressible by any form of information, much less in an abstract form of an idea or a set of ideas.
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Post by zin on Mar 12, 2015 16:46:20 GMT -5
"Ideas about perceptions".. History is one set, right? It helps in understanding 'will'.. (ok, may not be good for self-inquiry) History, science and math are the source of some of my favorite conceptual structures about appearances, and the mind can actively engage with these and find reflections of where nonduality points. For example, the fact that all the various forms we see are interconnected in some way is a shadowy reflection of the absence of separation expressed in terms of the monism of the Universe. Also, it's an obvious understatement to recognize how useful models of mind can be from a practical perspective. For instance, without the fields of electronics and software engineering we wouldn't be having this dialog. There's also the connections that can be made mind-to-mind on a deeper level through art, and the Sufi material that you and glimmer have put up recently are stellar examples of that. None of that need be rejected, and in fact, if any of it is there's a split-mind process that's going on. All of it is useful in terms of figuring out what we are, but only indirectly, as what it is that we are isn't expressible by any form of information, much less in an abstract form of an idea or a set of ideas. Yes, nice.. And if I could 'write' about aliveness, it would be nice, too... There was an excerpt in Sufi writings (not one I posted) about the relation between word and breath, maybe it is because of that relation that some words feel like alive, like Rumi's... (I easily get lost in these things, and I think at some point I will have to use religion words (but just for 'expressing' things better)).. Now I will study some "conceptual structures about appearances", a bit of history and a bit of math (for the open university thing). (don't mind these babbles, later I will note other things which seem to have changed since the particularization of will days) (lol!)
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