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Post by zin on Feb 15, 2015 14:42:59 GMT -5
Yea it sounds like an absurd question. Perhaps there won't be any answer other than a "no", but it is an interesting subject for me. Btw, not strictly related but if you haven't watched this "Overview" video, I recommend it (19 min).
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Post by andrew on Feb 15, 2015 15:03:03 GMT -5
Hi, could you expand on the question please? Are you asking if the earth is necessary for there to be an experience?
Love that video.
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Post by netisolomon on Feb 15, 2015 16:11:16 GMT -5
Awesome Video. Regarding your question, Awareness seeks to know itself through experience in form. I don't see why our world is specifically needed but it IS part of the appearance that exists in our perception. For us therefore, as agents of experience, things could not be otherwise. I expect any material in the Universe, animate, inanimate, earthly or interstellar can provide the mirror needed for Awareness to know itself. JS notthisnotthis.net
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2015 21:25:20 GMT -5
Yea it sounds like an absurd question. Perhaps there won't be any answer other than a "no", but it is an interesting subject for me. Btw, not strictly related but if you haven't watched this "Overview" video, I recommend it (19 min). Hi zindarud, maybe I'll buck the consensus then and say yes, absolutely. God tried to get "I AM" out of a meteor but it just wasn't happening.
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Post by zin on Feb 16, 2015 5:38:52 GMT -5
Hi, could you expand on the question please? Are you asking if the earth is necessary for there to be an experience? Love that video. Hi Andrew, yes I too love that video. I am not asking about experiences, I am asking about the "I am" as the 'sense of existing'. I recently read discussions in the other thread about these things and it began to seem a bit complicated to me; what I heard about "I am" comes fom Mooji videos, and there he explains it as the feeling of I exist, un-associated with anything else (like your name, past, relationships, etc). About this, if you think not everyone has it, the question can still be valid for those who do have that sense/feeling Btw I understand how Mooji says even a fly has it, because it isn't about thoughts. (Perhaps animals have it even more than humans?). Lastly, maybe it is better to ask "does the Earth have a role/influence in this feeling?", but the use of the word 'need' is not too much wrong, I think. My own opinion is, yes, the Earth has a role in it, and not only the Earth but also the Sun, etc... It may seem like words of a sentimental Nature-lover but one can look at things organically. (note: whether disembodied spirits has it is not my concern for the time being )
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Post by zin on Feb 16, 2015 5:51:06 GMT -5
Awesome Video. Regarding your question, Awareness seeks to know itself through experience in form. I don't see why our world is specifically needed but it IS part of the appearance that exists in our perception. For us therefore, as agents of experience, things could not be otherwise. I expect any material in the Universe, animate, inanimate, earthly or interstellar can provide the mirror needed for Awareness to know itself. JS notthisnotthis.netHi netisolomon, welcome (from a 9-day-old member ). I agree with you and your "for us (...) things could not be otherwise". And I don't see why our world is specifically needed, either; I mean I don't know the practical side of the issue. ps. Are there other poses of the green person in your avatar?
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Post by zin on Feb 16, 2015 6:01:51 GMT -5
Yea it sounds like an absurd question. Perhaps there won't be any answer other than a "no", but it is an interesting subject for me. Btw, not strictly related but if you haven't watched this "Overview" video, I recommend it (19 min). Hi zindarud, maybe I'll buck the consensus then and say yes, absolutely. God tried to get "I AM" out of a meteor but it just wasn't happening. Hi source, How did you learn about the meteor? I am open to any answer! From observation (of universe), from some legends, from your own thinking? ...But yes, I am generally talking about living things & Earth. Perhaps there is not much to say on this issue but I was curious about whether some of us would instantly say "yes". Sort of, there is not much to think about, just go into the "I am" feeling/sense and decide there. (perhaps it is not the same sense for everybody, I really don't know).
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Post by tenka on Feb 16, 2015 6:04:45 GMT -5
There only requires a sense of 'I am' to relate that 'I' exist .
The mind is the environment for that to be so .
No matter what form or non form one experiences and no matter where one finds themselves whilst of the mind one will always be aware of "I am" .
'I am' just requires an association with what 'I am' within mind be it just a thought or whatever .
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Post by andrew on Feb 16, 2015 6:05:20 GMT -5
Hi, could you expand on the question please? Are you asking if the earth is necessary for there to be an experience? Love that video. Hi Andrew, yes I too love that video. I am not asking about experiences, I am asking about the "I am" as the 'sense of existing'. I recently read discussions in the other thread about these things and it began to seem a bit complicated to me; what I heard about "I am" comes fom Mooji videos, and there he explains it as the feeling of I exist, un-associated with anything else (like your name, past, relationships, etc). About this, if you think not everyone has it, the question can still be valid for those who do have that sense/feeling Btw I understand how Mooji says even a fly has it, because it isn't about thoughts. (Perhaps animals have it even more than humans?). Lastly, maybe it is better to ask "does the Earth have a role/influence in this feeling?", but the use of the word 'need' is not too much wrong, I think. My own opinion is, yes, the Earth has a role in it, and not only the Earth but also the Sun, etc... It may seem like words of a sentimental Nature-lover but one can look at things organically. (note: whether disembodied spirits has it is not my concern for the time being ) Thanks for clarifying. What you talked about I tend to think of as 'atman'..a core individuality prior to all name/form/past/personality etc, though I don't see the conditioned and unconditioned aspects as entirely divorced or separate. There are many ways of talking about this stuff of course. I don't have much of an answer to your question, but in the context you are speaking, certainly I would also say the Sun etc has a role in it. I would say there is nothing that doesn't have a role in it...to offer what is now a spiritual cliche...'it's all one'.
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Post by andrew on Feb 16, 2015 6:15:11 GMT -5
There only requires a sense of 'I am' to relate that 'I' exist . The mind is the environment for that to be so . No matter what form or non form one experiences and no matter where one finds themselves whilst of the mind one will always be aware of "I am" . 'I am' just requires an association with what 'I am' within mind be it just a thought or whatever . In a meditation state, or a flow state, or a state of 'no-mind', would you say that there is the awareness or experience of a 'one' that is aware of 'I am'?
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Post by tenka on Feb 16, 2015 6:31:18 GMT -5
There only requires a sense of 'I am' to relate that 'I' exist . The mind is the environment for that to be so . No matter what form or non form one experiences and no matter where one finds themselves whilst of the mind one will always be aware of "I am" . 'I am' just requires an association with what 'I am' within mind be it just a thought or whatever . In a meditation state, or a flow state, or a state of 'no-mind', would you say that there is the awareness or experience of a 'one' that is aware of 'I am'? If one meditates and is not conscious of self (on any level) then one is not of the mind . There is in other words no-one meditating . Sometimes one has the impression that they have been absent when meditating and that could be as the reason given above or it could simply be that they have no memory of events that transpired from the moment they lost consciousness / awareness of their self / environment . No mind = No self = No 'I am' . If the mind was likened to a mirror then there requires a reflection of some kind to know that 'I am' . No mirror = no reflection . However what you are always 'IS' .. but there always requires a mirror and a reflection had to be aware that 'I am' in existence . Some say beyond mind there is 'awareness of awareness' but there must be a sense of what you are in relation to that . That is why I say beyond mind there is not even awareness but what you is still present .
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Post by andrew on Feb 16, 2015 7:27:38 GMT -5
In a meditation state, or a flow state, or a state of 'no-mind', would you say that there is the awareness or experience of a 'one' that is aware of 'I am'? If one meditates and is not conscious of self (on any level) then one is not of the mind . There is in other words no-one meditating . Sometimes one has the impression that they have been absent when meditating and that could be as the reason given above or it could simply be that they have no memory of events that transpired from the moment they lost consciousness / awareness of their self / environment . No mind = No self = No 'I am' . If the mind was likened to a mirror then there requires a reflection of some kind to know that 'I am' . No mirror = no reflection . However what you are always 'IS' .. but there always requires a mirror and a reflection had to be aware that 'I am' in existence . Some say beyond mind there is 'awareness of awareness' but there must be a sense of what you are in relation to that . That is why I say beyond mind there is not even awareness but what you is still present . I basically agree with that however I would say that the state of 'no-one meditating' can also be transferred to 'no-one eating' or 'no-one typing' etc. Therefore I would say that there is a point where the one that is aware (of 'I am') and the 'I am' itself , sort of merges into one. The sense of the separation between the two is lost. In my perspective, I would also say that there is a source of I am, and that it is source that knows itself through mind. In this sense, 'I am' is sort of an...intermediary, the point between the unmanifested and the manifested.
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Post by tenka on Feb 16, 2015 7:58:44 GMT -5
If one meditates and is not conscious of self (on any level) then one is not of the mind . There is in other words no-one meditating . Sometimes one has the impression that they have been absent when meditating and that could be as the reason given above or it could simply be that they have no memory of events that transpired from the moment they lost consciousness / awareness of their self / environment . No mind = No self = No 'I am' . If the mind was likened to a mirror then there requires a reflection of some kind to know that 'I am' . No mirror = no reflection . However what you are always 'IS' .. but there always requires a mirror and a reflection had to be aware that 'I am' in existence . Some say beyond mind there is 'awareness of awareness' but there must be a sense of what you are in relation to that . That is why I say beyond mind there is not even awareness but what you is still present . I basically agree with that however I would say that the state of 'no-one meditating' can also be transferred to 'no-one eating' or 'no-one typing' etc. Therefore I would say that there is a point where the one that is aware (of 'I am') and the 'I am' itself , sort of merges into one. The sense of the separation between the two is lost. In my perspective, I would also say that there is a source of I am, and that it is source that knows itself through mind. In this sense, 'I am' is sort of an...intermediary, the point between the unmanifested and the manifested. No-one as such being present can eventually come about through meditation amongst other contributing factors . I am not so sure that no-one being present via meditation can be likened to an apple being consumed whist no-one is present to experience eating it . Is there anyone present whilst eating their xmas turkey, perhaps not but there is a sense of the self and the turkey . In regards to the source and I am, they are the same . There is only what you are and what you are that is of the mind relates that to 'I am' whether I am spirit, I am God, I am self, I am santa .
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Post by andrew on Feb 16, 2015 8:40:06 GMT -5
I basically agree with that however I would say that the state of 'no-one meditating' can also be transferred to 'no-one eating' or 'no-one typing' etc. Therefore I would say that there is a point where the one that is aware (of 'I am') and the 'I am' itself , sort of merges into one. The sense of the separation between the two is lost. In my perspective, I would also say that there is a source of I am, and that it is source that knows itself through mind. In this sense, 'I am' is sort of an...intermediary, the point between the unmanifested and the manifested. No-one as such being present can eventually come about through meditation amongst other contributing factors . I am not so sure that no-one being present via meditation can be likened to an apple being consumed whist no-one is present to experience eating it . Is there anyone present whilst eating their xmas turkey, perhaps not but there is a sense of the self and the turkey . In regards to the source and I am, they are the same . There is only what you are and what you are that is of the mind relates that to 'I am' whether I am spirit, I am God, I am self, I am santa . The experience here is that turkey can be eaten without the sense of self lol. On reflection now, I would say that writing that last sentence came without a sense of self....there is just a sort of focused thought and attention...no sense of self to speak of. A sense of self probably arises at times though perhaps if someone called out my name from across the street, there would be a moment of 'oh that's me they are talking to'. I see two sort of 'pillars' of that which is prior to the manifested...there is a void of pure potentiality, and there is the conscious presence, still empty of form, but which is present within all form. I see the 'I am' as the second pillar. It can be known or sensed. The other pillar is a void. As humans we have generally resided between the manifested and the conscious presence, and have been scared of the void (we are not scared of conscious presence so much). I would say it is our 'job' to shift our 'residence' to a balance between the manifested and the void, and this isn't easy because it means facing the fear of the void, which to us, looks like non-existence.
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Post by tzujanli on Feb 16, 2015 8:59:43 GMT -5
No-one as such being present can eventually come about through meditation amongst other contributing factors . I am not so sure that no-one being present via meditation can be likened to an apple being consumed whist no-one is present to experience eating it . Is there anyone present whilst eating their xmas turkey, perhaps not but there is a sense of the self and the turkey . In regards to the source and I am, they are the same . There is only what you are and what you are that is of the mind relates that to 'I am' whether I am spirit, I am God, I am self, I am santa . The experience here is that turkey can be eaten without the sense of self lol. On reflection now, I would say that writing that last sentence came without a sense of self....there is just a sort of focused thought and attention...no sense of self to speak of. A sense of self probably arises at times though perhaps if someone called out my name from across the street, there would be a moment of 'oh that's me they are talking to'. I see two sort of 'pillars' of that which is prior to the manifested...there is a void of pure potentiality, and there is the conscious presence, still empty of form, but which is present within all form. I see the 'I am' as the second pillar. It can be known or sensed. The other pillar is a void. As humans we have generally resided between the manifested and the conscious presence, and have been scared of the void (we are not scared of conscious presence so much). I would say it is our 'job' to reside between conscious presence and the void, and this isn't easy because it means facing the fear of the void, which to us, looks like non-existence. Self is evident in the unique presentation of 'your' understanding, you are engaged in mind-game of speculating beyond the present happening.. the still and clear mind, sees no 'void' and is therefore comfortable with its existence..
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