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Post by someNOTHING! on Mar 1, 2015 23:41:20 GMT -5
It's easy to see how passing the buck has become such a consistent strategy, allowing the hydra-like Catholic guilt to persist ... To maintain its boundaries, mind has to imitate honesty/sincerity and believe it to be true. At some level, it has to feel awkward when faced with a pointer pointing to its falsity. Odd that it is not "easier", but I do have memories of my own hard headedness... The idea of a sincere seeker strikes me as similar in structure to a koan ... to be human is to embody the appearance of an inherent trap. The reactivity seems to me to be obviously firmly rooted in fear, and from what I've learned on the interwebs, peeps who've been at the seeking game a long time get reaaaalllly good and creative at projecting both the fear and the appearance of the trap out onto others. It also seems that their favorite canvas is someone who forms the image in their minds eye of of the lazy cheatin' dog who's claiming that it's just as easy as being themselves. Well said. Yeah, I reckon I don't do enough interaction as such to get a feel for how people communicate their actual perspectives in these types of conversations, much less how authentic they are being through a message board. All there are to go by are the words typed, the context provided, and the patterns of exhibited behavior. Anyway, I never stumbled onto this non-dual stuff until much later in the process of trying to figure out just WTF happened. All I can say is that the better pointers just made sense when nothing else had. It's not a belief, in that you can accumulate an understanding and bring it further under control. It's antithetical to everything ever taught throughout our lives, at least for most. It's an expression from nowhere that immediately starts fading, disturbing the foundations of any/all world views ~ belief systems. Perhaps, the story that underlies most of the systems is just that: try, fail, surrender, realize~ ad nauseum. The constant stumbling, misguided assumptions, and precarious pitfalls tire one into regret and blame, yet truth shines on and it can't be faked. It's an expression that points to what always has been and always will be; just not 'you'.
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Post by laughter on Mar 2, 2015 0:09:31 GMT -5
Thanks for the recommendation.
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Post by laughter on Mar 2, 2015 0:19:29 GMT -5
The idea of a sincere seeker strikes me as similar in structure to a koan ... to be human is to embody the appearance of an inherent trap. The reactivity seems to me to be obviously firmly rooted in fear, and from what I've learned on the interwebs, peeps who've been at the seeking game a long time get reaaaalllly good and creative at projecting both the fear and the appearance of the trap out onto others. It also seems that their favorite canvas is someone who forms the image in their minds eye of of the lazy cheatin' dog who's claiming that it's just as easy as being themselves. Well said. Yeah, I reckon I don't do enough interaction as such to get a feel for how people communicate their actual perspectives in these types of conversations, much less how authentic they are being through a message board. All there are to go by are the words typed, the context provided, and the patterns of exhibited behavior. Anyway, I never stumbled onto this non-dual stuff until much later in the process of trying to figure out just WTF happened. All I can say is that the better pointers just made sense when nothing else had. It's not a belief, in that you can accumulate an understanding and bring it further under control. It's antithetical to everything ever taught throughout our lives, at least for most. It's an expression from nowhere that immediately starts fading, disturbing the foundations of any/all world views ~ belief systems. Perhaps, the story that underlies most of the systems is just that: try, fail, surrender, realize~ ad nauseum. The constant stumbling, misguided assumptions, and precarious pitfalls tire one into regret and blame, yet truth shines on and it can't be faked. It's an expression that points to what always has been and always will be; just not 'you'. Have you ever written about WTF seemed to have happened? What I've noticed over the past few years is just how often the idea of nonduality tends to have gotten expressed by secular culture again and again, mostly from music, so it's as if I'm hearing the tunes of my youth for the first time sometimes. It's pleasant and hopeful to entertain the idea that the proliferation of nondual teachers over the past decade is a sign of something, but from what little I've read casually of Buddhism, what we might refer to as the appearance of the evolution of consciousness ( ) has gone through some funny cycles in the past.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Mar 2, 2015 7:45:29 GMT -5
I'm just trying to help gopal out. ...........because I've been there......... I've been paying attention to how I respond to him lately, and mostly I'm trying to keep it focused and simple cuz he has a tendency to spin, and with the language difficulty it gets 'tied up in knots', as you say, very quickly. So I don't give him all the answers to all his questions and try to parse all of his statements. Why not just leave us alone? If you really understood non-volition you'd know I can't.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Mar 2, 2015 7:49:26 GMT -5
I just meant I've dealt with enigma a lot. I don't know what you mean, so I can't comment on it. So what about what I wrote, specifically, don't you understand? You wrote yourself that you were trying to be helpful: I'm just trying to help gopal out. ... and that this was based on your experience: ...........because I've been there......... ... in other words, you were trying to help gopal with the wisdom of your experience.Do I have that much wrong so far? If so, what about it is wrong? Or, do I have that much right? Only in relation to enigma.........in relation to the pointing away from....not to.........
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Mar 2, 2015 7:52:42 GMT -5
I was always the peacemaker in (elementary) school. Somehow I could invariably see both P'sOV, and I could explain A to B and B to A. Now, I try to write, not for myself, but to write also to say what I can hear the other person reading. I hope that makes sense . ...........I like to 'see' (here) when somebody misunderstands what somebody else said........probably too much of the time...... ............. Anyway, I always stand to be corrected, if I am wrong....... (Tzu?) Yes, me too, for the most part. It's part of my day-to-day necessary bag of tricks for carrying on the magical mystery tour known as international education. You can't imagine the types of intercultural biases and misundertandings that can occur. It's great when you can be aware of the many pieces of the puzzle being played out, coming together in their own time, but very often it's just a matter of observing, seeing what happens next in order to get a larger/clearer perspective. But then again, sometimes you just have to boll them over, state the objective and put fire to their feet! ........Very cool........
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Mar 2, 2015 8:01:17 GMT -5
I've had lots of happy and unhappy experiences. Yeah, this is the only way that conclusion can be made, but you disagree with me that we can't know what has happened an hour ago, If so, how could you know you were happy or unhappy an hour ago? If not how could you conclude? gopal ........ look at my last post to laughter .......... I think enigma is more interested in pointing away from time and space, you are looking at time and space, two different contexts. You just keep passing him. If I am wrong about this, my apology to the both of you.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Mar 2, 2015 8:07:49 GMT -5
Yeah, Enigma believes this way, He says we can't know whether we were in mars or earth an hour ago can't be known gopal, did you look at zindarud's tag under the avatar?
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Post by laughter on Mar 2, 2015 12:04:09 GMT -5
So what about what I wrote, specifically, don't you understand? You wrote yourself that you were trying to be helpful: ... and that this was based on your experience: ... in other words, you were trying to help gopal with the wisdom of your experience.Do I have that much wrong so far? If so, what about it is wrong? Or, do I have that much right? Only in relation to enigma.........in relation to the pointing away from....not to......... That's passive aggressive avoidance of the question based on a detail. The longer this goes the more your negative and disparaging descriptions of enigma begin to match your own content.
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Post by enigma on Mar 4, 2015 19:17:46 GMT -5
I've been elaborating since you have been here on ST's. I'm out of time right now.......but I'm not inclined to elaborate......not my problem......let's just say that enigma is not in to clarity, he basks in obfuscation.........You have to absolutely nail him to the wall to get real clarity from him. I'm all about clarity. Not so much intellectualizing. I'll only follow that bunny so far down the hole.
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Post by enigma on Mar 4, 2015 19:32:20 GMT -5
I just meant I've dealt with enigma a lot. I don't know what you mean, so I can't comment on it. So what about what I wrote, specifically, don't you understand? You wrote yourself that you were trying to be helpful: I'm just trying to help gopal out. ... and that this was based on your experience: ...........because I've been there......... ... in other words, you were trying to help gopal with the wisdom of your experience. Do I have that much wrong so far? If so, what about it is wrong? Or, do I have that much right? Another 'What game' contestant. Like there was anything even remotely vague about what you said.
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Post by enigma on Mar 4, 2015 19:40:10 GMT -5
I've had lots of happy and unhappy experiences. Yeah, this is the only way that conclusion can be made, but you disagree with me that we can't know what has happened an hour ago, If so, how could you know you were happy or unhappy an hour ago? If not how could you conclude? I can't really say I know what you're goin on about. I remember a conversation in which I said everything is coming from consciousness now, including memories about the past. Did that translate into' we can't know what happened an hour ago' to you?
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Post by enigma on Mar 4, 2015 19:44:19 GMT -5
Yeah, Enigma believes this way, He says we can't know whether we were in mars or earth an hour ago can't be known I don't know that I said that.
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Post by laughter on Mar 4, 2015 19:45:11 GMT -5
So what about what I wrote, specifically, don't you understand? You wrote yourself that you were trying to be helpful: ... and that this was based on your experience: ... in other words, you were trying to help gopal with the wisdom of your experience. Do I have that much wrong so far? If so, what about it is wrong? Or, do I have that much right? Another 'What game' contestant. Like there was anything even remotely vague about what you said. Hey should we start givin' out prizes and trophies and stuff?? ... I'd say give 'dusty a rastaphant!
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Post by enigma on Mar 4, 2015 19:51:18 GMT -5
I've been paying attention to how I respond to him lately, and mostly I'm trying to keep it focused and simple cuz he has a tendency to spin, and with the language difficulty it gets 'tied up in knots', as you say, very quickly. So I don't give him all the answers to all his questions and try to parse all of his statements. Why not just leave us alone? If you really understood non-volition you'd know I can't. If you understood it, you would know you can, but don't want to.
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