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Post by amit on Jan 28, 2015 7:36:22 GMT -5
Ego, imagined here as the character/personality created by mind for defensive purposes, may be so unsuccessful at defending against rejection that it wishes it was dead and takes the body/mind with it. In this desperate state, should it come across non-duality, it may recognize the perfect defense and claim it's own death without actually either it or the body/mind having to die:) Of course it doesn't believe in non-duality, it's not interested in integrity or congruence, it just states that non-dual realization has happened to claim it's own death..............and survive! It may even forget that it has done this to appear more convincing. Could it get so comfortable and relaxed sitting quietly behind that defense that there is no longer a separate person apparently operating?  amit |
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Post by zendancer on Jan 28, 2015 10:41:29 GMT -5
Ego, imagined here as the character/personality created by mind for defensive purposes, may be so unsuccessful at defending against rejection that it wishes it was dead and takes the body/mind with it. In this desperate state, should it come across non-duality, it may recognize the perfect defense and claim it's own death without actually either it or the body/mind having to die:) Of course it doesn't believe in non-duality, it's not interested in integrity or congruence, it just states that non-dual realization has happened to claim it's own death..............and survive! It may even forget that it has done this to appear more convincing. Could it get so comfortable and relaxed sitting quietly behind that defense that there is no longer a separate person apparently operating? amit Amit: if this is a serious question, then you might want to pursue it non-conceptually because the answer is already within you. Otherwise you'll never know for sure, and it will remain merely an interesting speculation. FWIW, I don't think that ego is created initially for defensive purposes; that comes later. What we call "ego" seems to arise rather naturally and innocently through false identification, and only later, as one responds to how one thinks others perceive oneself, do defensive/protective thought patterns start to arise. |
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Post by laughter on Jan 28, 2015 12:42:19 GMT -5
Ego, imagined here as the character/personality created by mind for defensive purposes, may be so unsuccessful at defending against rejection that it wishes it was dead and takes the body/mind with it. In this desperate state, should it come across non-duality, it may recognize the perfect defense and claim it's own death without actually either it or the body/mind having to die:) Of course it doesn't believe in non-duality, it's not interested in integrity or congruence, it just states that non-dual realization has happened to claim it's own death..............and survive! It may even forget that it has done this to appear more convincing. Could it get so comfortable and relaxed sitting quietly behind that defense that there is no longer a separate person apparently operating? amit It does sound like a plausible scenario and while a false claim of "ego death" can be made very apparent given circumstances, absent such a reveal, only the claimant can ever know fer sure what their real situation is. |
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Post by andrew on Jan 28, 2015 13:06:53 GMT -5
Ego, imagined here as the character/personality created by mind for defensive purposes, may be so unsuccessful at defending against rejection that it wishes it was dead and takes the body/mind with it. In this desperate state, should it come across non-duality, it may recognize the perfect defense and claim it's own death without actually either it or the body/mind having to die:) Of course it doesn't believe in non-duality, it's not interested in integrity or congruence, it just states that non-dual realization has happened to claim it's own death..............and survive! It may even forget that it has done this to appear more convincing. Could it get so comfortable and relaxed sitting quietly behind that defense that there is no longer a separate person apparently operating? amit I might well be misunderstanding you, but if I am interpreting you correctly (it sounds to me like you are describing a situation in which ego is taking comfort in, or hiding behind, a bunch of newly acquired concepts) I would say 'yes'. Though my feeling is that the eventual discovery of what has been happening would come as a genuine and sincere surprise. |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jan 28, 2015 13:12:01 GMT -5
Ego, imagined here as the character/personality created by mind for defensive purposes, may be so unsuccessful at defending against rejection that it wishes it was dead and takes the body/mind with it. In this desperate state, should it come across non-duality, it may recognize the perfect defense and claim it's own death without actually either it or the body/mind having to die:) Of course it doesn't believe in non-duality, it's not interested in integrity or congruence, it just states that non-dual realization has happened to claim it's own death..............and survive! It may even forget that it has done this to appear more convincing. Could it get so comfortable and relaxed sitting quietly behind that defense that there is no longer a separate person apparently operating? amit amit ...... I can relate. I had a fairly normal childhood (more or less, but not really, anyway.....), but when I turned about thirteen, I became pretty despicable, to myself. This was to a great extent what initiated my spiritual search, as in, WTF? (or, as is said here, WIBIGO). It continued to get worse until I was 21, I quit college (as a Jr.) and in eight months tried to start over by moving to Colorado. That was fairly successful, until it wasn't. (Wherever you go, there you are). I moved back to NC and lived with my parents. I had thoughts of suicide previously, but nothing serious. It then got serious (as in devising a plan). Thus, for a few days in May 1975, it was serious. OK, I get to your question, what did I do? Thinking was the major problem. Of course it was emotional too, but I continually had these thoughts, I don't want to live anymore, I can't live anymore, I can't do this anymore, etc.. Now, I saw the problem as existential/spiritual, not psychological, so I didn't seek out professional help (IOW, I didn't think such help could solve my problem). I lost meaning to do much of anything, lack of meaning was the central issue. So I tried various ways to get a temporary reprieve. I ice skated, and did so a few times a week, so I began watching my legs while I skated. By doing so I was able to shut off the internal dialogue (thus shutting off the depressive, suicidal thoughts). This became my little oasis. I was further able to extend this principle into everything I did. There were times when I didn't believe I could live five more minutes. When it got really bad, I decided I could put just one foot in front of the other, and I literally did just this. I lived literally taking one step at a time. My whole life consisted of that one step. I was not able to exist in the future in any way whatsoever. If I thought of the future I could see only the blackness, the depression there. Living this way, only one step at a time, also stopped the internal dialogue of self-punishing and just lots of stupid self-crap. Years later I read The Dark Night of the Soul. There are two nights. I came to consider that this period was the night of sense. Now, this is not a long term solution.......unless it is. .......I would suggest, just try it. But as discussed here, you can find many and various ways to ATA-MT. Is this merely a distraction from "black thoughts"? Maybe, but it worked for me for a year (after that is another story, let's just say I found a long term solution). Music helped. I listened mostly to The Moody Blues, Bob Dylan and Cat Stevens. It helped knowing other people got through what I was experiencing. The best book I have come across about the description is Darkness Visible by William Styron. I agree with ZD, you can't think your way out of the problem, although I did begin to turns things around on the turn of a phrase. I was prone to say to myself, I don't care if I live or die. And one day, that was probably early March of 1976, I saw what I was saying, and I suddenly saw, well, I might as well live. After that I didn't seriously consider suicide. How yea, those thoughts came, but I just disregarded them. I faced down death, after that, there isn't anything much harder. But there was also a little weird bonus. Suicide was like an ace up the sleeve, I knew if things ever got unbearable I could always check out. |
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Post by runstill on Jan 28, 2015 14:44:52 GMT -5
Ego, imagined here as the character/personality created by mind for defensive purposes, may be so unsuccessful at defending against rejection that it wishes it was dead and takes the body/mind with it. In this desperate state, should it come across non-duality, it may recognize the perfect defense and claim it's own death without actually either it or the body/mind having to die:) Of course it doesn't believe in non-duality, it's not interested in integrity or congruence, it just states that non-dual realization has happened to claim it's own death..............and survive! It may even forget that it has done this to appear more convincing. Could it get so comfortable and relaxed sitting quietly behind that defense that there is no longer a separate person apparently operating?amit This would be sitting in the illusion of a separate self thinking/believing there is no separate self . The thinker of thought is a passing thought, nothing will be lost if it disappears.. |
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Post by amit on Jan 28, 2015 15:20:16 GMT -5
Thanks to all,
Whether Ego remains is only a speculative question (for me) because (for me) it has no relevance for the end of the feeling of disconnection (which was my only concern). For me, in the story in the OP, if Ego IS faking it's death and hiding behind the perfect defense of non-duality it must already be Oneness (meaning for me that All is One despite appearances to the contrary, rather than some sort of entity) as Ego faking it and hiding. In that scenario whatever Ego is doing has no relevance whatsoever. If it is the biggest Ego in the world thinking itself (and others) to death, it will not be any less connected than its complete absence.
This may not be a speculative question for some. I do have an interest in attempting to understand what may be going on for others but have no idea myself what that might be or what may be helpful, I prefer to ask and hear that direct from whoever is interested enough to share.
amit
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Post by enigma on Jan 28, 2015 18:20:36 GMT -5
Ego, imagined here as the character/personality created by mind for defensive purposes, may be so unsuccessful at defending against rejection that it wishes it was dead and takes the body/mind with it. In this desperate state, should it come across non-duality, it may recognize the perfect defense and claim it's own death without actually either it or the body/mind having to die:) Of course it doesn't believe in non-duality, it's not interested in integrity or congruence, it just states that non-dual realization has happened to claim it's own death..............and survive! It may even forget that it has done this to appear more convincing. Could it get so comfortable and relaxed sitting quietly behind that defense that there is no longer a separate person apparently operating? amit Amit: if this is a serious question, then you might want to pursue it non-conceptually because the answer is already within you. Otherwise you'll never know for sure, and it will remain merely an interesting speculation. FWIW, I don't think that ego is created initially for defensive purposes; that comes later. What we call "ego" seems to arise rather naturally and innocently through false identification, and only later, as one responds to how one thinks others perceive oneself, do defensive/protective thought patterns start to arise. I agree with your definition of ego. Also, there are reactions that arise from self identification other than defensiveness, so that seems like a very narrow definition even if all we're focused on is reactivity. |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jan 28, 2015 18:21:19 GMT -5
Thanks to all, Whether Ego remains is only a speculative question (for me) because (for me) it has no relevance for the end of the feeling of disconnection (which was my only concern). For me, in the story in the OP, if Ego IS faking it's death and hiding behind the perfect defense of non-duality it must already be Oneness (meaning for me that All is One despite appearances to the contrary, rather than some sort of entity) as Ego faking it and hiding. In that scenario whatever Ego is doing has no relevance whatsoever. If it is the biggest Ego in the world thinking itself (and others) to death, it will not be any less connected than its complete absence. This may not be a speculative question for some. I do have an interest in attempting to understand what may be going on for others but have no idea myself what that might be or what may be helpful, I prefer to ask and hear that direct from whoever is interested enough to share. amit Hey amit, I make a distinction between self and ego (ego is superfluous baggage). Self is individuated, separate, but not separate in the sense that it can exist outside the whole (I am a nondualist, but not without qualification). So, I think that delusion does matter, and, so, it is possible that ego can be hiding in conceptual nondualism, only the individual can know if, from their view, it is actual or conceptual (or maybe not if they actually are deluded). Just sharing another view. |
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Post by amit on Jan 29, 2015 13:50:39 GMT -5
Hi stardustpilgrim, I remember a time when I was very much concerned with knowing what was real and not delusional. It was very uncomfortable cause how could one know? The assertion that in stillness/meditation one could know, was not very convincing as far I was concerned cause that might still be delusional. For me the task of sorting delusion from some idea about reality or truth is never ending as it can never be known whether there is something hidden (not yet discovered) that contradicts what is believed to be real or true no matter how one arrives at that destination. What are your thoughts about that? Are you engaged in that sorting? If so do you feel you have discovered a truth? The problem was resolved for me by going with whatever resonated and not worrying about whether I was deluded Then I could consider anything without the limitation of it having to be true. amit |
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Post by andrew on Jan 29, 2015 14:15:22 GMT -5
Hi stardustpilgrim, I remember a time when I was very much concerned with knowing what was real and not delusional. It was very uncomfortable cause how could one know? The assertion that in stillness/meditation one could know, was not very convincing as far I was concerned cause that might still be delusional. For me the task of sorting delusion from some idea about reality or truth is never ending as it can never be known whether there is something hidden (not yet discovered) that contradicts what is believed to be real or true no matter how one arrives at that destination. What are your thoughts about that? Are you engaged in that sorting? If so do you feel you have discovered a truth? The problem was resolved for me by going with whatever resonated and not worrying about whether I was deluded Then I could consider anything without the limitation of it having to be true. amit I can relate to that. Reminds me of the movie 'Inception' in which Leo never came to a complete knowing of whether he was awake or dreaming, but it didn't matter to him any more. |
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Post by amit on Jan 29, 2015 14:54:07 GMT -5
Hi Andrew, Yes it illustrated the point well and there are many other examples. I went to dinner with a friend recently when he said that he had a dream the night before that I paid for dinner. I said I had a dream something like that but it was in a parallel universe and in this one he paid. We split the bill. amit |
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Post by andrew on Jan 29, 2015 18:50:31 GMT -5
Hi Andrew, Yes it illustrated the point well and there are many other examples. I went to dinner with a friend recently when he said that he had a dream the night before that I paid for dinner. I said I had a dream something like that but it was in a parallel universe and in this one he paid. We split the bill. amit haha very cool. Cheers amit. |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jan 30, 2015 10:49:37 GMT -5
Hi stardustpilgrim, I remember a time when I was very much concerned with knowing what was real and not delusional. It was very uncomfortable cause how could one know? The assertion that in stillness/meditation one could know, was not very convincing as far I was concerned cause that might still be delusional. For me the task of sorting delusion from some idea about reality or truth is never ending as it can never be known whether there is something hidden (not yet discovered) that contradicts what is believed to be real or true no matter how one arrives at that destination. What are your thoughts about that? Are you engaged in that sorting? If so do you feel you have discovered a truth? The problem was resolved for me by going with whatever resonated and not worrying about whether I was deluded Then I could consider anything without the limitation of it having to be true. amit Hey amit, There is a saying in my path, The secret protects itself. Everything is a test. Let's say you are given a map. You come to a fork, you have to understand which road to take. If you don't understand, you can't make it to the next fork, so your journey stops. So you could say that overcoming delusion is built in-to the Way. Now, some who begin this journey never come to see this, and get diverted. Some continue and think they are still on the path, some just move on to other paths. You could also look at it as coming to a chasm. To continue, you have to cross the chasm. You are given the materials, tools and knowledge, but you have to built the bridge across the chasm, yourself. If not, you're done. So I have faced your question every day for over 35 years. This insures the teaching is real, not imaginary, and not merely conceptual. Excellent questions amit. |
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Post by amit on Jan 31, 2015 14:10:05 GMT -5
Hi Stardustpilgrim,
Yes I see the point in relation to getting to the next fork. If it is a fork on the road to ending a concern, in my case the concern to end the feeling of disconnection, the fork encountered was which offer of help truly addresses the concern. Is it the left fork which offers a truth, or the right fork which says what is true can never be known? Each pilgrim will have their own reaction. Some will resonate with the left and some the right.
For many years I went down the left but found that there was always something discovered that contradicted the truth offered, and even if there was no such discovery, how could I know that one wasn't about to turn up any minute? So I went back and took the right fork and never had to consider that question again because whenever I encountered such a 'truth' fork, I immediately went to the right. For others who went left they may never doubt that they have found the truth offered and not worry at all that it may be shattered any moment.
How have the forks you have encountered worked out for you?
amit
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