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Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2015 14:25:13 GMT -5
The observer ego is constructed out of the same components as the everyday ego, but on a smaller scale. The everyday mind has thoughts about all sorts of stuff, the observer has thoughts about how the mediation is going, or how long until this sit is over. The everyday ego has emotions about all sorts of stuff, but observer has emotions about how this sit is going, or even blissful feelings of love and joy. The everyday ego has all sorts of body sensations, but the observer has a very special set of body sensations: the sensations of where he/she imagines awareness is located. This last hint takes a bit of unpacking, because it is somewhat subtle. Most people imagine that awareness is centered in a spot in their head, usually somewhere around the eyes. This is a natural illusion, given that your eyes, ears, tongue, and nose are all located in your head. But if you, for example, feel your foot right now, you will probably imagine that you are somehow feeling it from your head. It’s as if a light of awareness is projecting down towards your foot. In reality, you have nerves in your foot that allow you to feel it right from your foot. (Of course, these sensations are processed in the brain, which is located in your head, but that’s beside the point—you are never aware of that level of brain hardware.) So it is with the observer ego. It will feel as if it’s somehow located in your head and observing from that point. But that is nothing more than an arbitrary set of physical sensations (probably located around the eyes) that you’ve decided is where awareness is located. Those sensations are also part of the observer ego. So to overcome the observer problem and get unstuck in your practice, closely observe the sensations (i.e. the thoughts and feelings) associated with the observer ego. This may be very uncomfortable at first, but this is where your many years of practicing neutral observation come to your aid. Here are some hints about how to do this: --Observe any thoughts you have about the meditation itself. For example: “I’m having a good meditation.” “I’m doing the technique wrong.” “I wish my concentration was deeper.” “I hope lunch comes soon.” and so on. --Notice any emotions you have about the meditation itself. For example: frustration about how the meditation is going, joy at experiencing a deep meditation, panic about how long the sit may last, and so on. --Observe any sensations you have about where awareness seems to be located. Do you feel it’s centered in your head? Behind your eyes? Notice whatever body sensations you associate with the observer. Watch these very carefully. --In general, notice any sense that you are making an effort to meditate at all. Wherever this effort appears to be coming from, notice that. Let the meditation be an effortless experience, not an effortful doing. See more at: www.scienceandnonduality.com/escaping-the-observer-trap
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Post by laughter on Jan 24, 2015 14:42:33 GMT -5
--Observe any thoughts you have about the meditation itself. For example: “I’m having a good meditation.” “I’m doing the technique wrong.” “I wish my concentration was deeper.” “I hope lunch comes soon.” and so on. --Notice any emotions you have about the meditation itself. For example: frustration about how the meditation is going, joy at experiencing a deep meditation, panic about how long the sit may last, and so on. --Observe any sensations you have about where awareness seems to be located. Do you feel it’s centered in your head? Behind your eyes? Notice whatever body sensations you associate with the observer. Watch these very carefully. --In general, notice any sense that you are making an effort to meditate at all. Wherever this effort appears to be coming from, notice that. Let the meditation be an effortless experience, not an effortful doing. See more at: www.scienceandnonduality.com/escaping-the-observer-trapA metaphor that I used to describe what it's like when this stuff dies down is a phased lock loop. A point of stillness is reached that is self-reinforcing and the sense of awareness seems to expand naturally decentralize.
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Post by steven on Jan 25, 2015 16:56:28 GMT -5
Meditation is a wonderful activity, I wish everyone did it conciously and regularly.
But this process of discussing it as a practice, presumably with some goal, may be missing the mark.
Still though, this line of thought is centered on how best to change one's habitual perspectives in a certain way, and it is useful for that, but at what point do you realize that whatever perspective that's occuring is epically profound lol
Lately I've been giving attention to the reality that all experience is my own 'doing' so to speak....that's a fun and interesting experience to explore.
For example, when I touch the wall and meet a kind of resistance between the wall's seeming solidity and my finger, all of that is an appearence manufactured in and probably by my conciousness....the tactile resistance between my finger and the solidity of the wall, is only occuring within my mind, and is a product of my mind ordering sensory perceptions that it's actually creating at that moment.
There is resistance against my finger becuase I am that resistance resisting.
That's kinda fun to explore, but you can only really get to a deep and direct exploration of this (versus just an intellectual exploration), if you have fully realized that all 'this' is you.
It's a really cool unfolding.....woohoo!
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Post by enigma on Jan 25, 2015 17:12:29 GMT -5
Meditation is a wonderful activity, I wish everyone did it conciously and regularly. But this process of discussing it as a practice, presumably with some goal, my be missing the mark. Still though, this line of thought is centered on how best to change one's habitual perspectives in a certain way, and it is useful for that, but at what point do you realize that whatever perspective that's occuring is epically profound lol Lately I've been giving attention to the reality that all experience is my own 'doing' so to speak....that's a fun and interesting experience to explore. For example, when I touch the wall and meet a kind of resistance between the wall's seeming solidity and my finger, all of that is an appearence manufactured in and probably by my conciousness....the tactile resistance between my finger and the solidity of the wall, is only occuring within my mind, and is a product of my mind ordering sensory perceptions that it's actually creating at that moment. There is resistance against my finger becuase I am that resistance resisting. That's kinda fun to explore, but you can only really get to a deep and direct exploration of this (versus just an intellectual exploration), if you have fully realized that all 'this' is you. It's a really cool unfolding.....woohoo! Yeah, we tend to see thought and emotional feeling as 'inside' and sensory perception (like touch) as 'outside', and then conclude that sense perception is more 'actual' than thought/feeling, but really all of it is a movement in consciousness, with no outside/inside. There isn't something 'out there' being touched.
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Post by runstill on Jan 25, 2015 17:16:03 GMT -5
Meditation is a wonderful activity, I wish everyone did it conciously and regularly. But this process of discussing it is a practice, presumably with some goal, my be missing the mark. Still though, this line of thought is centered on how best to change one's perspective in a certain way, and it is useful for that, but at what point do you realize that whatever perspective that's occuring is epically profound lol Lately I've been giving attention to the reality that all experience is my own 'doing' so to speak....that's a fun and interesting experience to explore. For example, when I touch the wall and meet a kind of resistance between the wall's seeming solidity and my finger, all of that is an appearence manufactured in and probably by my conciousness....the tactile resistance between my finger and the solidity of the wall, is only occuring within my mind, and is a product of my mind ordering sensory perceptions that is actually creating at that moment.There is resistance against my finger becuase I am that resistance resisting. That's kinda fun to explore, but you can only really get to a deep and direct exploration of this (versus just an intellectual exploration), if you have fully realized that all 'this' is you. It's a really cool unfolding.....woohoo! I'm glad you brought this up, something similar but a little more subtle is to lay down and focus on the feeling where your body contacts the surface , think of the feeling as a sensation instead of resistance and with eyes closed try and find a boundary to the sensation... woohoo..
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Post by earnest on Jan 25, 2015 20:23:45 GMT -5
Meditation is a wonderful activity, I wish everyone did it conciously and regularly. But this process of discussing it as a practice, presumably with some goal, my be missing the mark. Still though, this line of thought is centered on how best to change one's habitual perspectives in a certain way, and it is useful for that, but at what point do you realize that whatever perspective that's occuring is epically profound lol Lately I've been giving attention to the reality that all experience is my own 'doing' so to speak....that's a fun and interesting experience to explore. For example, when I touch the wall and meet a kind of resistance between the wall's seeming solidity and my finger, all of that is an appearence manufactured in and probably by my conciousness....the tactile resistance between my finger and the solidity of the wall, is only occuring within my mind, and is a product of my mind ordering sensory perceptions that it's actually creating at that moment. There is resistance against my finger becuase I am that resistance resisting. That's kinda fun to explore, but you can only really get to a deep and direct exploration of this (versus just an intellectual exploration), if you have fully realized that all 'this' is you. It's a really cool unfolding.....woohoo! Yeah, we tend to see thought and emotional feeling as 'inside' and sensory perception (like touch) as 'outside', and then conclude that sense perception is more 'actual' than thought/feeling, but really all of it is a movement in consciousness, with no outside/inside. There isn't something 'out there' being touched. There's something about all this that feels like its on the edge of something big and unsettling,.. Similar to the wall stuff Steve mentioned, if I look at my son's lego,. the experience is not that it's "out there", but that the seeing is happening "in me". Same if I hold a piece of lego tightly, i can only find the sensations inside me. I can't find anything to do with the lego outside of me. And then I go look over at my daughter and she's in me too. The oddness of the feeling of that is beyond the writing of it.
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Post by steven on Jan 25, 2015 22:23:12 GMT -5
Yeah, we tend to see thought and emotional feeling as 'inside' and sensory perception (like touch) as 'outside', and then conclude that sense perception is more 'actual' than thought/feeling, but really all of it is a movement in consciousness, with no outside/inside. There isn't something 'out there' being touched. There's something about all this that feels like its on the edge of something big and unsettling,..Similar to the wall stuff Steve mentioned, if I look at my son's lego,. the experience is not that it's "out there", but that the seeing is happening "in me". Same if I hold a piece of lego tightly, i can only find the sensations inside me. I can't find anything to do with the lego outside of me. And then I go look over at my daughter and she's in me too. The oddness of the feeling of that is beyond the writing of it. Yes!....and I'm having a blast exploring it lol
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Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2015 0:24:22 GMT -5
Meditation is a wonderful activity, I wish everyone did it conciously and regularly. But this process of discussing it as a practice, presumably with some goal, may be missing the mark. Still though, this line of thought is centered on how best to change one's habitual perspectives in a certain way, and it is useful for that, but at what point do you realize that whatever perspective that's occuring is epically profound lol Lately I've been giving attention to the reality that all experience is my own 'doing' so to speak....that's a fun and interesting experience to explore. For example, when I touch the wall and meet a kind of resistance between the wall's seeming solidity and my finger, all of that is an appearence manufactured in and probably by my conciousness....the tactile resistance between my finger and the solidity of the wall, is only occuring within my mind, and is a product of my mind ordering sensory perceptions that it's actually creating at that moment. There is resistance against my finger becuase I am that resistance resisting.That's kinda fun to explore, but you can only really get to a deep and direct exploration of this (versus just an intellectual exploration), if you have fully realized that all 'this' is you. It's a really cool unfolding.....woohoo!, Hi steve, maybe you can answer this question. Why is it that in the dreaming state there seems to be no resistance to things. No "I am that resistance", to things? I can fly and I can walk through walls, etc, etc. Why is it then, when I enter the waking state, another so called illusory state, or maya, I can't fly and I can't walk through walls anymore, etc, etc.? What is the difference between illusory states that affords resistance to one, the waking state, but not to the other, the dreaming state?
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Post by steven on Jan 26, 2015 0:48:11 GMT -5
Meditation is a wonderful activity, I wish everyone did it conciously and regularly. But this process of discussing it as a practice, presumably with some goal, may be missing the mark. Still though, this line of thought is centered on how best to change one's habitual perspectives in a certain way, and it is useful for that, but at what point do you realize that whatever perspective that's occuring is epically profound lol Lately I've been giving attention to the reality that all experience is my own 'doing' so to speak....that's a fun and interesting experience to explore. For example, when I touch the wall and meet a kind of resistance between the wall's seeming solidity and my finger, all of that is an appearence manufactured in and probably by my conciousness....the tactile resistance between my finger and the solidity of the wall, is only occuring within my mind, and is a product of my mind ordering sensory perceptions that it's actually creating at that moment. There is resistance against my finger becuase I am that resistance resisting.That's kinda fun to explore, but you can only really get to a deep and direct exploration of this (versus just an intellectual exploration), if you have fully realized that all 'this' is you. It's a really cool unfolding.....woohoo!, Hi steve, maybe you can answer this question. Why is it that in the dreaming state there seems to be no resistance to things. No "I am that resistance", to things? I can fly and I can walk through walls, etc, etc. Why is it then, when I enter the waking state, another so called illusory state, or maya, I can't fly and I can't walk through walls anymore, etc, etc.? What is the difference between illusory states that affords resistance to one, the waking state, but not to the other, the dreaming state? I dunno man, but I'm working on it, exploring it, playing with it lol I will say that I'm not assuming that the things that can happen in the so called dreaming state cannot also happen in the so called waking state. I suspect it has a lot to do with habitualized belief and a kind of lack of conciousness. For example, when you are not self aware AND vividly aware that you are dreaming, you are also bound by the rules of the dream physics, lost in them so to speak. Its only when you are lucidly aware of self and that you are dreaming, i.e. Lucidly aware of self and the nature of the reality that you find yourself in, that you can suddenly decide to fly or walk through walls in a sleeping dream. On the surface there appears to be a big distinction between the dreaming state and the waking state, they seem fundamentally the same, except that the dreaming state seems to be the exclusively private world of your own personal mindscape, while the waking dream is a shared space, that requires some sort of consensus of agreed upon physics and rules. However, I'm not sure this is he case, as there is really no way to prove that I am not simply a part of your dream lol...or vice versa ;-) It would make sense that in order to turn this waking dream, which seams to be so much more solid and real than the sleeping dream, would require a much more heightened states of alertness, self awareness, and awareness of the nature of this experience than the sleeping dream in order to have the same type of capacity to defy physics that one has in a typical lucid sleeping dream. In short, just as we can rise above a sleeping dream by being self aware and aware of the nature the dream, perhaps, this same is true of this waking manifestation of our conciousness, only, because we seem to get so much more immersed, or absorbed in this dream, it requires proportionately more self awareness and vivid awareness of this state of reality.
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Post by enigma on Jan 26, 2015 1:19:33 GMT -5
Yeah, we tend to see thought and emotional feeling as 'inside' and sensory perception (like touch) as 'outside', and then conclude that sense perception is more 'actual' than thought/feeling, but really all of it is a movement in consciousness, with no outside/inside. There isn't something 'out there' being touched. There's something about all this that feels like its on the edge of something big and unsettling,.. Similar to the wall stuff Steve mentioned, if I look at my son's lego,. the experience is not that it's "out there", but that the seeing is happening "in me". Same if I hold a piece of lego tightly, i can only find the sensations inside me. I can't find anything to do with the lego outside of me. And then I go look over at my daughter and she's in me too. The oddness of the feeling of that is beyond the writing of it. Zackly. You're getting a glimpse (at least) of some of the fundamental illusions mind creates about perception, and over time accepts as fact. Our direct experience is not actually showing us an 'out there'. It IS unsettling, but maybe it's a little comfort to know that your daughter is literally in your heart. (Heart of being)
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Post by enigma on Jan 26, 2015 1:26:41 GMT -5
Meditation is a wonderful activity, I wish everyone did it conciously and regularly. But this process of discussing it as a practice, presumably with some goal, may be missing the mark. Still though, this line of thought is centered on how best to change one's habitual perspectives in a certain way, and it is useful for that, but at what point do you realize that whatever perspective that's occuring is epically profound lol Lately I've been giving attention to the reality that all experience is my own 'doing' so to speak....that's a fun and interesting experience to explore. For example, when I touch the wall and meet a kind of resistance between the wall's seeming solidity and my finger, all of that is an appearence manufactured in and probably by my conciousness....the tactile resistance between my finger and the solidity of the wall, is only occuring within my mind, and is a product of my mind ordering sensory perceptions that it's actually creating at that moment. There is resistance against my finger becuase I am that resistance resisting.That's kinda fun to explore, but you can only really get to a deep and direct exploration of this (versus just an intellectual exploration), if you have fully realized that all 'this' is you. It's a really cool unfolding.....woohoo!, Hi steve, maybe you can answer this question. Why is it that in the dreaming state there seems to be no resistance to things. No "I am that resistance", to things? I can fly and I can walk through walls, etc, etc. Why is it then, when I enter the waking state, another so called illusory state, or maya, I can't fly and I can't walk through walls anymore, etc, etc.? What is the difference between illusory states that affords resistance to one, the waking state, but not to the other, the dreaming state? If I can add my 2 cents...There's a part of your waking mind that continually questions and compares the mental map of 'reality' to what the senses are showing you, and tries to reconcile any errors. That part of the mind is not active in the sleep state, and so pretty much everything goes unquestioned. We could say the unconscious takes over, and it's dynamics are far more spontaneous, imaginative and non-rational.
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Post by enigma on Jan 26, 2015 1:38:41 GMT -5
Hi steve, maybe you can answer this question. Why is it that in the dreaming state there seems to be no resistance to things. No "I am that resistance", to things? I can fly and I can walk through walls, etc, etc. Why is it then, when I enter the waking state, another so called illusory state, or maya, I can't fly and I can't walk through walls anymore, etc, etc.? What is the difference between illusory states that affords resistance to one, the waking state, but not to the other, the dreaming state? I dunno man, but I'm working on it, exploring it, playing with it lol I will say that I'm not assuming that the things that can happen in the so called dreaming state cannot also happen in the so called waking state. I suspect it has a lot to do with habitualized belief and a kind of lack of conciousness. For example, when you are not self aware AND vividly aware that you are dreaming, you are also bound by the rules of the dream physics, lost in them so to speak. Its only when you are lucidly aware of self and that you are dreaming, i.e. Lucidly aware of self and the nature of the reality that you find yourself in, that you can suddenly decide to fly or walk through walls in a sleeping dream. On the surface there appears to be a big distinction between the dreaming state and the waking state, they seem fundamentally the same, except that the dreaming state seems to be the exclusively private world of your own personal mindscape, while the waking dream is a shared space, that requires some sort of consensus of agreed upon physics and rules. However, I'm not sure his is he case, as there is really no way to prove that I am not simply a part of your dream lol...or vice versa ;-) It would make sense that in order to turn this waking dream, which seams to be so much more solid and real than the sleeping dream, would require a much more heightened states of alertness, self awareness, and awareness of the nature of this experience than the sleeping dream in order to have the same type of capacity to defy physics that one has in a typical lucid sleeping dream. In short, just as we can rise above a sleeping dream by being self aware and aware of the nature the dream, perhaps, this same is true of this waking manifestation of our conciousness, only, because we seem to get so much more immersed, or absorbed in this dream, it requires proportionately more self awareness and vivid awareness of this state of reality. That may be true to an extent, but as you indicated, the sleep state is an individualized dream and the waking state is a collective dream, so the 'control' you have over a dream in which nobody but you is involved is naturally lost to a great extent in the waking dream.
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Post by laughter on Jan 26, 2015 9:11:58 GMT -5
Meditation isn't just reserved for the time sitting, and there are a myriad of facts available to the mind that put it on notice of the notion that the world isn't the way that we commonly sense it and conceive of it -- as ourselves with our bodies sharing the world with other things with their own objective existence that aren't us.
In this way, intellect can inform experience, and vice-versa.
Even though none of any perception is happening outside of you, there are other individuals, other minds, other points of perception that are different, and that are in the same situation. There is a commonality between these individuals, but that commonality is not two. That commonality can't be described with information. The intellect can only touch it indirectly.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2015 12:24:03 GMT -5
Hi steve, maybe you can answer this question. Why is it that in the dreaming state there seems to be no resistance to things. No "I am that resistance", to things? I can fly and I can walk through walls, etc, etc. Why is it then, when I enter the waking state, another so called illusory state, or maya, I can't fly and I can't walk through walls anymore, etc, etc.? What is the difference between illusory states that affords resistance to one, the waking state, but not to the other, the dreaming state? I dunno man, but I'm working on it, exploring it, playing with it lol I will say that I'm not assuming that the things that can happen in the so called dreaming state cannot also happen in the so called waking state. I suspect it has a lot to do with habitualized belief and a kind of lack of conciousness. For example, when you are not self aware AND vividly aware that you are dreaming, you are also bound by the rules of the dream physics, lost in them so to speak. Its only when you are lucidly aware of self and that you are dreaming, i.e. Lucidly aware of self and the nature of the reality that you find yourself in, that you can suddenly decide to fly or walk through walls in a sleeping dream. On the surface there appears to be a big distinction between the dreaming state and the waking state, they seem fundamentally the same, except that the dreaming state seems to be the exclusively private world of your own personal mindscape, while the waking dream is a shared space, that requires some sort of consensus of agreed upon physics and rules. However, I'm not sure this is he case, as there is really no way to prove that I am not simply a part of your dream lol...or vice versa ;-) It would make sense that in order to turn this waking dream, which seams to be so much more solid and real than the sleeping dream, would require a much more heightened states of alertness, self awareness, and awareness of the nature of this experience than the sleeping dream in order to have the same type of capacity to defy physics that one has in a typical lucid sleeping dream. In short, just as we can rise above a sleeping dream by being self aware and aware of the nature the dream, perhaps, this same is true of this waking manifestation of our conciousness, only, because we seem to get so much more immersed, or absorbed in this dream, it requires proportionately more self awareness and vivid awareness of this state of reality. steve, thanks for your response, much love.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2015 12:59:20 GMT -5
Hi steve, maybe you can answer this question. Why is it that in the dreaming state there seems to be no resistance to things. No "I am that resistance", to things? I can fly and I can walk through walls, etc, etc. Why is it then, when I enter the waking state, another so called illusory state, or maya, I can't fly and I can't walk through walls anymore, etc, etc.? What is the difference between illusory states that affords resistance to one, the waking state, but not to the other, the dreaming state? If I can add my 2 cents...T here's a part of your waking mind that continually questions and compares the mental map of 'reality' to what the senses are showing you, and tries to reconcile any errors. That part of the mind is not active in the sleep state, and so pretty much everything goes unquestioned. We could say the unconscious takes over, and it's dynamics are far more spontaneous, imaginative and non-rational. enigma, that seems like a reasonable explanation. So if that part of the mind that is not active in the sleep state, can be made inactive in the waking state, I would be able to fly?
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