|
Post by enigma on Jan 24, 2015 17:00:40 GMT -5
If you mean the belief that nothing outside your mind exists, I'd say that already involves some misconceptions. Your mind doesn't exist in any substantial way, as it is simply the movement of thought, and thought is not always happening, so mind is not always appearing. As I define existence, it only applies to that which does not come and go, so I would not say the mind exists, but rather appears. To what does it appear, is an important question. Most folks actually find themselves in those self identifying thoughts, and so there is no 'you' that has a mind. There is mind appearing and disappearing; thoughts happening, which you are aware of, and apparently thoughts happening that you are not aware of, but you can't really know that.In any event, if we assume there are thoughts happening that you are not aware of, it doesn't necessarily mean there are other 'yous'. It may mean that patterns of thought are compartmentalized, allowing for a necessarily individuated experience to happen, but that the experiencer of each of these individuated experiences is the same One. That's not to say that One is the individuated mind/body that solipsism bases it's notions on. hehe...interestingly enough, I had a very similar conversation with my 11 yr. old two days ago, while painting our nails. Out of the blue, she blurted out that she sometimes wonders if perhaps she is the only 'real' person and everyone else appearing in her life might just be a 'robot' of sorts, devoid of the self awareness she experiences. After about 15 minutes of banter on the subject, she concluded that even if it were the case, there's just no way to know for sure...and that others definitely 'seem' to be self aware, and 'real' and thus, it's likely best just to engage 'as if' that's the case. How does it feel to be a mom robot?
|
|
|
Post by enigma on Jan 24, 2015 17:02:17 GMT -5
hehe...interestingly enough, I had a very similar conversation with my 11 yr. old two days ago, while painting our nails. Out of the blue, she blurted out that she sometimes wonders if perhaps she is the only 'real' person and everyone else appearing in her life might just be a 'robot' of sorts, devoid of the self awareness she experiences. After about 15 minutes of banter on the subject, she concluded that even if it were the case, there's just no way to know for sure...and that others definitely 'seem' to be self aware, and 'real' and thus, it's likely best just to engage 'as if' that's the case. Descartes faced this question. He decided, right after I think therefore I am, being a believer, that God would not have us be deluded, so we can trust that there are real people, places and things out there. His first mistake was believing there is a God. His second mistake is that we're not deluded.
|
|
|
Post by enigma on Jan 24, 2015 17:04:03 GMT -5
If you mean the belief that nothing outside your mind exists, I'd say that already involves some misconceptions. Your mind doesn't exist in any substantial way, as it is simply the movement of thought, and thought is not always happening, so mind is not always appearing. As I define existence, it only applies to that which does not come and go, so I would not say the mind exists, but rather appears. To what does it appear, is an important question. Most folks actually find themselves in those self identifying thoughts, and so there is no 'you' that has a mind. There is mind appearing and disappearing; thoughts happening, which you are aware of, and apparently thoughts happening that you are not aware of, but you can't really know that. In any event, if we assume there are thoughts happening that you are not aware of, it doesn't necessarily mean there are other 'yous'. It may mean that patterns of thought are compartmentalized, allowing for a necessarily individuated experience to happen, but that the experiencer of each of these individuated experiences is the same One. That's not to say that One is the individuated mind/body that solipsism bases it's notions on. It seems you do not understand the consequences of your own position. I mean Solipsism with a capital S. What does the capital mean?
|
|
|
Post by tzujanli on Jan 24, 2015 17:25:01 GMT -5
Descartes faced this question. He decided, right after I think therefore I am, being a believer, that God would not have us be deluded, so we can trust that there are real people, places and things out there. I think what I enjoyed most about the conversation with my daughter, other than the fact that she felt no need to arrive at a concrete 'knowing' about the question, was the fact that in the end, practicality prevailed, and she figured there was no point in going against what was appearing at face value.......not that looking beyond the surface of things isn't important and valid at times, but even then, important to remember, it's easy to get led down the garden path of believing in things that only complicate matters and for which there is really no practical value. Some people retreat into imagined explanations, pretending that what's right in front of them is an illusion and what happens in their mind's imaginings is real.. those are the people that demonize mind, logic, and reason, since those qualities expose their illusions..
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2015 17:35:37 GMT -5
I think what I enjoyed most about the conversation with my daughter, other than the fact that she felt no need to arrive at a concrete 'knowing' about the question, was the fact that in the end, practicality prevailed, and she figured there was no point in going against what was appearing at face value.......not that looking beyond the surface of things isn't important and valid at times, but even then, important to remember, it's easy to get led down the garden path of believing in things that only complicate matters and for which there is really no practical value. Some people retreat into imagined explanations, pretending that what's right in front of them is an illusion and what happens in their mind's imaginings is real.. those are the people that demonize mind, logic, and reason, since those qualities expose their illusions.. yes, you should take a closer look at your imaginations.. they can obstruct clarity and liberation...
|
|
|
Post by tzujanli on Jan 24, 2015 17:52:05 GMT -5
I don't recall that we've ever discussed solipsism. I'm talking about Solipsism with a capital S. Tzu obviously got this. We've had several dialogs that all are based on a similar assumption and that all arrive at similar conclusions so the fact that the term hasn't come up is just incidental. Got what? What is it that you think I don't get? Why don you and Tzu' have a dialog about SOI? Why don't you deal with your own issues, stay focused on the discussion you're already in.. look at you, trying to start some conflict.. SOI?.. the principle of self-organization, order emerging from chaos? that's my understanding.. the difference between SDP, Tzu, and a few others compared with you and the oneness club, is that we can have the same experience differently, without telling the other they are 'wrong', or without mocking ridiculing and provoking each other under the pretense of 'helping'.. we can describe experiences without making them special by labeling them 'realizations' so we can exclude those that don't agree by accusing them of not understanding our special experiences..
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2015 18:09:24 GMT -5
I fear I might be turning solipsistic or something. Is this the worst thing in the world? What does it mean really? Maybe it has its roots in the latin: solo. Alone and isolated from the tuning forks of other people. "Fork" is an interesting word here. I see image of people with forks. Intellectuals waiting to consume me with criticisms. As a defense mechanism I put my ear to the tune of my own tuning fork. I see the absurdity in one car of the train taking the lead for the train's destination. But thankfully I don't have to stay on the train. I can get off and take a bus. Or perhaps I can walk around. Sometimes I jog when crossing the street because it appears I'm running out of time. I see those numbers counting down and I go out of my mind. Better for me to stand on the street corner and do tai chi. It sucks when low lifes yell things from the windows of their cars. I have been known to chase a car down the block. But the solipsist in me tells me not to do this. He says I have seen dogs on the street more intelligent. Stop acting like an ass// wholey foolish person. There's always one guy ruining it for eveybody else. Even better to go somewhere green, and natural. Then the trees can join you in your movements.
|
|
|
Post by figgles on Jan 24, 2015 22:36:18 GMT -5
hehe...interestingly enough, I had a very similar conversation with my 11 yr. old two days ago, while painting our nails. Out of the blue, she blurted out that she sometimes wonders if perhaps she is the only 'real' person and everyone else appearing in her life might just be a 'robot' of sorts, devoid of the self awareness she experiences. After about 15 minutes of banter on the subject, she concluded that even if it were the case, there's just no way to know for sure...and that others definitely 'seem' to be self aware, and 'real' and thus, it's likely best just to engage 'as if' that's the case. How does it feel to be a mom robot?
|
|
|
Post by enigma on Jan 24, 2015 23:45:58 GMT -5
How does it feel to be a mom robot? Pretty slick. Yer on a roll today.
|
|
|
Post by laughter on Jan 25, 2015 5:48:51 GMT -5
We've had several dialogs that all are based on a similar assumption and that all arrive at similar conclusions so the fact that the term hasn't come up is just incidental. Got what? What is it that you think I don't get? Why don you and Tzu' have a dialog about SOI? Why don't you deal with your own issues, stay focused on the discussion you're already in.. look at you, trying to start some conflict.. SOI?.. the principle of self-organization, order emerging from chaos? that's my understanding.. the difference between SDP, Tzu, and a few others compared with you and the oneness club, is that we can have the same experience differently, without telling the other they are 'wrong', or without mocking ridiculing and provoking each other under the pretense of 'helping'.. we can describe experiences without making them special by labeling them 'realizations' so we can exclude those that don't agree by accusing them of not understanding our special experiences.. Responded to here out of respect for the others on the thread.
|
|
|
Post by laughter on Jan 26, 2015 8:59:39 GMT -5
The child who sees himself as the only real person: is this a learned activity or was he born with the ability to do this? Perhaps it is a defense mechanism. The tendancy to choose a private world or a world of illusions over the one that is actually happening intrigues me at the moment. It's probably not too practical for me to dwell on ideas and concepts that are naturally going to change as my perspective begins to shift towards the real world. I have decided I am not a solipsist nor is anyone really. The label can't stick. The person the label is trying to describe does not stand still long enough. He keeps dancing and shuffling his feet. Better I go chasing after butterflies than go to war with a man who isn't there. Where there is a solipsist there is definitely someone there.
|
|