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Post by enigma on Jan 16, 2015 14:10:23 GMT -5
Are you personally lost in the forest of WIBIGO? Right now? In this thread I'm interested in the poster's actual experience, not a hypothetical one who hypothetically gets lost. I can't see how you could get lost in WIBIGO... lost in models, theories etc yes, but WIBIGO? I guess I see models/theories as an overlay that may be helpful up to a point, but surely its clear that at some point it becomes apparent that ALL models/theories are overlays and abstractions and perhaps there is something more interesting right in front of your face right now that's worth exploring It's a very tired old analogy, but this seems like the whole map is not the territory or the menu isn't the meal thingo. Hey earnest...........so there in nobody who is lost in WIBIGO? What you're suggesting is that one can get lost amid the actuality of what is happening behind the stories and models, which doesn't make sense. If one is lost, he's lost in illusion. If you think WIBIGO is some complex model, then you're lost in what you think is going on rather than what is going on. WIBIGO is not about experiences.
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Post by enigma on Jan 16, 2015 14:12:56 GMT -5
E says ZD says Fir the record, I’m not interested in models and theories, only in WIBIGO and in the direct knowing/being of it. Even thinking about discussing models/theories makes me puke in my mouth and fall asleep at the same time. I’ve been a bit quiet here lately because there seems (IMO) to be too much noodling about on stuff which is not WIBIGO. Also quiet because I don’t have any questions at this stage. My "practice" is just reduced to doing what is in front of me and observation without expectation. I don’t even know how to talk about this stuff anymore. I’m happy to get into a conversation about living this way and put any beliefs or what-not on to the chopping block. I’d rather go to the moon than sit around drawing pictures of spaceships (pew pew mfkers… ) hehe .. I have similar visceral reactions.. which perplexes me, honestly... and seems to interfere with WIBIGO Some peeps develop a natural aversion to mental spinning for no particular reason, which is a good thingy.
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Post by enigma on Jan 16, 2015 14:15:03 GMT -5
hehe .. I have similar visceral reactions.. which perplexes me, honestly... and seems to interfere with WIBIGO well then...so much for automagically creating equanimity, i guess. What do you mean by automatically creating equanimity?
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Post by enigma on Jan 16, 2015 14:23:11 GMT -5
what does 'automagically creating" mean? I can ignore stuff.. or lie about it... or I can treat it like a life koan until it washes away... I only took what you said the way I did because you seemed to be agreeing with earnest about getting physically ill/ nauseous and bored over stuff -- although I realize now it could be just you eggsagerating for effect. Regardless of whether he's exaggerating or not, how does it tie into "automatically creating equanimity"? You seem to be saying something beyond the idea that he's not always in equanimity?
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Post by silver on Jan 16, 2015 14:24:35 GMT -5
I only took what you said the way I did because you seemed to be agreeing with earnest about getting physically ill/ nauseous and bored over stuff -- although I realize now it could be just you eggsagerating for effect. Regardless of whether he's exaggerating or not, how does it tie into "automatically creating equanimity"? You seem to be saying something beyond the idea that he's not always in equanimity? I thought I covered this here (on the Equanimity thread) minutes ago: spiritualteachers.proboards.com/post/234285
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Post by enigma on Jan 16, 2015 15:15:39 GMT -5
Regardless of whether he's exaggerating or not, how does it tie into "automatically creating equanimity"? You seem to be saying something beyond the idea that he's not always in equanimity? I thought I covered this here (on the Equanimity thread) minutes ago: spiritualteachers.proboards.com/post/234285Well, you didn't. Why is it so hard to just tell me what you mean by this?: "so much for automagically creating equanimity, i guess."
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Post by quinn on Jan 16, 2015 15:18:57 GMT -5
E says ZD says Fir the record, I’m not interested in models and theories, only in WIBIGO and in the direct knowing/being of it. Even thinking about discussing models/theories makes me puke in my mouth and fall asleep at the same time. I’ve been a bit quiet here lately because there seems (IMO) to be too much noodling about on stuff which is not WIBIGO. Also quiet because I don’t have any questions at this stage. My "practice" is just reduced to doing what is in front of me and observation without expectation. I don’t even know how to talk about this stuff anymore. I’m happy to get into a conversation about living this way and put any beliefs or what-not on to the chopping block. I’d rather go to the moon than sit around drawing pictures of spaceships (pew pew mfkers… ) hehe .. I have similar visceral reactions.. which perplexes me, honestly... and seems to interfere with WIBIGOGood observation, popee. Those reactions are interesting, eh? I have them too, but only about theories and philosophies. The model thing doesn't bother me at all. To me it's saying "The map is...a map". I haven't heard anyone purporting it to be territory at all. Anyway, that's how I take it.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 16, 2015 15:48:05 GMT -5
hehe .. I have similar visceral reactions.. which perplexes me, honestly... and seems to interfere with WIBIGOGood observation, popee. Those reactions are interesting, eh? I have them too, but only about theories and philosophies. The model thing doesn't bother me at all. To me it's saying "The map is...a map". I haven't heard anyone purporting it to be territory at all. Anyway, that's how I take it. It's so....fascinating that you think you don't have a model. I started to ask what this model business was all about... way back... but I didn't want to muddle through 50 more pages of puking and dozing off
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Post by quinn on Jan 16, 2015 15:57:49 GMT -5
Good observation, popee. Those reactions are interesting, eh? I have them too, but only about theories and philosophies. The model thing doesn't bother me at all. To me it's saying "The map is...a map". I haven't heard anyone purporting it to be territory at all. Anyway, that's how I take it. It's so....fascinating that you think you don't have a model. I started to ask what this model business was all about... way back... but I didn't want to muddle through 50 more pages of puking and dozing off Oh..well...I have to admit to some speed-reading and a bit lot of skipping when the debate got going.
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Post by andrew on Jan 16, 2015 15:57:55 GMT -5
E says ZD says Fir the record, I’m not interested in models and theories, only in WIBIGO and in the direct knowing/being of it. Even thinking about discussing models/theories makes me puke in my mouth and fall asleep at the same time. I’ve been a bit quiet here lately because there seems (IMO) to be too much noodling about on stuff which is not WIBIGO. Also quiet because I don’t have any questions at this stage. My "practice" is just reduced to doing what is in front of me and observation without expectation. I don’t even know how to talk about this stuff anymore. I’m happy to get into a conversation about living this way and put any beliefs or what-not on to the chopping block. I’d rather go to the moon than sit around drawing pictures of spaceships (pew pew mfkers… ) hehe .. I have similar visceral reactions.. which perplexes me, honestly... and seems to interfere with WIBIGO It's these kinds of reactions that can give us a clue that there could be some beliefs to put on the old chopping block.
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Post by enigma on Jan 16, 2015 16:07:05 GMT -5
hehe .. I have similar visceral reactions.. which perplexes me, honestly... and seems to interfere with WIBIGOGood observation, popee. Those reactions are interesting, eh? I have them too, but only about theories and philosophies. The model thing doesn't bother me at all. To me it's saying "The map is...a map". I haven't heard anyone purporting it to be territory at all. Anyway, that's how I take it. But the models are all made up of theories and philosophies, and the theories and philosophies all fit into models. A model is just larger a set of ideas rather than a specific theory seeking proof, or a philosophy that need not be confined to a scientific discipline. I don't have a problem with models, theories and philosophies. They just don't seem to have much to do with spirituality, at least the sort that we generally discuss here.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 16, 2015 16:10:21 GMT -5
hehe .. I have similar visceral reactions.. which perplexes me, honestly... and seems to interfere with WIBIGO It's these kinds of reactions that can give us a clue that there could be some beliefs to put on the old chopping block. perhaps, but "beliefs" is a curious word, and I'm not certain it pertains here you know how we use the word "rez" around here? is "not-rezzing" a belief? it doesn't seem that it is
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Post by andrew on Jan 16, 2015 16:11:30 GMT -5
Good observation, popee. Those reactions are interesting, eh? I have them too, but only about theories and philosophies. The model thing doesn't bother me at all. To me it's saying "The map is...a map". I haven't heard anyone purporting it to be territory at all. Anyway, that's how I take it. But the models are all made up of theories and philosophies, and the theories and philosophies all fit into models. A model is just larger a set of ideas rather than a specific theory seeking proof, or a philosophy that need not be confined to a scientific discipline. I don't have a problem with models, theories and philosophies. They just don't seem to have much to do with spirituality, at least the sort that we generally discuss here. To speak of someone's overall 'model' is to speak of their frame of reference. The totality of their understandings/conditioning. For example, your model of reality includes ideas of nothing being ultimately true and greasy spots and everything being imaginary and what you are as being prior to what appears (to give a few examples). The really fascinating thing about your frame of reference/model is that it is set up in such way that makes you think you don't have one.
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Post by andrew on Jan 16, 2015 16:12:19 GMT -5
It's these kinds of reactions that can give us a clue that there could be some beliefs to put on the old chopping block. perhaps, but "beliefs" is a curious word, and I'm not certain it pertains here you know how we use the word "rez" around here? is "not-rezzing" a belief? it doesn't seem that it is I used the word 'belief' because it was in the O.P. I would say a strong visceral reaction to conversation on here goes beyond not-rezzing and underpinning it is likely to be a set of beliefs that create strong physical resistance/discordance.
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Post by enigma on Jan 16, 2015 16:25:41 GMT -5
Good observation, popee. Those reactions are interesting, eh? I have them too, but only about theories and philosophies. The model thing doesn't bother me at all. To me it's saying "The map is...a map". I haven't heard anyone purporting it to be territory at all. Anyway, that's how I take it. It's so....fascinating that you think you don't have a model. I started to ask what this model business was all about... way back... but I didn't want to muddle through 50 more pages of puking and dozing off At least 50 pages of puking. Hehe. The main reason it's not a model, which you will prolly understand, but not the hypermodelers, is that this stuff is really about what isn't so. It's about seeing through the illusory models, and you're not left with anything to grasp or to know (in the normal sense) or theorize or philosophise about. The brown bear has it right, it's just that Mr bear has turned it into a model rather than seeing what the ideas point to.
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