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Post by stardustpilgrim on Dec 26, 2014 18:28:12 GMT -5
Well, I exaggerated that I'm driven to distraction just a little bit. ;-) It's just that it's so easy for me to 'see' that the mind is a 'road' that doesn't just disappear on a person, and I'm not even certain that this is close to what you're describing. I mean, maybe I can use the analogy of a plane takes off from a runway (mind) and the taking off is merely high-flying thought. It makes me chuckle to try and explain what I think I mean! Sorry. I don't know what you mean. I'll get to what I think silver means. We have a mind/body. You can divide the mind/body according to five functions, #3: abstract thinking, #2: emotion/feeling, #1: acting/moving (what the muscles have learned to do), #1a: sexual and #1b: instinctive functions plus sensations (what the mind/body does that doesn't have to be learned, breathing, digesting, heart-beating, perceiving stuff, etc.). The brain is composed of three brains; the oldest brain, the reptilian brain, which consists of the brain stem and the spinal column, controls #1, #1a, #1b. The next brain, which covers over the reptilian brain, is the mammalian brain which includes the limbic system, it controls #2, and functions relatively independently of the neo-cortex. The next brain is the neo-cortex (but has various other names, the forebrain, the frontal lobes, etc.), it is the outer layer of the brain so covers over the mammalian brain and is the source of #3, abstract conceptual thought. We are born with these "centers" functioning. When the mind/body experiences life, the experiences are stored in the mind/body. Abstractions, thoughts, are stored in the neural structure of the brain. Emotional memories can be, and are, stored throughout the mind/body. You have sensory neurons which connect the five senses to the brain, and you have motor neurons which connect the brain to the muscles so the mind/body can tell the muscles of the body what to do (run, walk, scratch your itching nose). Tolle's pain body is spread throughout the body, it's essentially the body's memory of trauma, either physical or emotional. It is related to what Wilhelm Reich called body armor. Ego is the stored memories of the centers, the memories of #3, #2, #1, #1a, #1b. IOW, the contents of the centers. Now, plugging all this into silver's language, her 'road' is all of this, the mind/body is the 'road' and when she says it doesn't disappear, what silver means that all this is still there, still functioning when one is ATA-MT or the still mind. Now, for silver and gopal, what Tzu and zd and E are saying, is that ego is completely absent (the memories of the mind/body don't interfere) is not functioning, when there is ATA-MT or still mind (the gears and pulleys and bells and whistles, of ego, that constitute ego, have been temporarily disconnected). And the more one is ATA-MT or still mind (or other specific interior "practices"), the weaker ego becomes, and in turn the more 'free' one becomes, IOW, free of ego. And for gopal, what we generally mean by thought, is #3, the function of the neo-cortex. What gopal has meant by thought, it seems to me, is inclusive of #1, #1b, #2 and #3. And, so, gopal, you can stop telling us we're confused . (or not, your choice )........ And, hopefully last edit, to whom it may concern, all this and life doesn't make sense unless emptiness is form.
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Post by justlikeyou on Dec 26, 2014 20:01:41 GMT -5
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Post by silver on Dec 26, 2014 20:18:56 GMT -5
Sorry. I don't know what you mean. I'll get to what I think silver means. We have a mind/body. You can divide the mind/body according to five functions, #3: abstract thinking, #2: emotion/feeling, #1: acting/moving (what the muscles have learned to do), #1a: sexual and #1b: instinctive functions plus sensations (what the mind/body does that doesn't have to be learned, breathing, digesting, heart-beating, perceiving stuff, etc.). The brain is composed of three brains; the oldest brain, the reptilian brain, which consists of the brain stem and the spinal column, controls #1, #1a, #1b. The next brain, which covers over the reptilian brain, is the mammalian brain which includes the limbic system, it controls #2, and functions relatively independently of the neo-cortex. The next brain is the neo-cortex (but has various other names, the forebrain, the frontal lobes, etc.), it is the outer layer of the brain so covers over the mammalian brain and is the source of #3, abstract conceptual thought. We are born with these "centers" functioning. When the mind/body experiences life, the experiences are stored in the mind/body. Abstractions, thoughts, are stored in the neural structure of the brain. Emotional memories can be, and are, stored throughout the mind/body. You have sensory neurons which connect the five senses to the brain, and you have motor neurons which connect the brain to the muscles so the mind/body can tell the muscles of the body what to do (run, walk, scratch your itching nose). Tolle's pain body is spread throughout the body, it's essentially the body's memory of trauma, either physical or emotional. It is related to what Wilhelm Reich called body armor. Ego is the stored memories of the centers, the memories of #3, #2, #1, #1a, #1b. IOW, the contents of the centers. Now, plugging all this into silver's language, her 'road' is all of this, the mind/body is the 'road' and when she says it doesn't disappear, what silver means that all this is still functioning when one is ATA-MT or the still mind.Now, for silver and gopal, what Tzu and zd and E are saying, is that ego is completely absent (the memories of the mind/body don't interfere) when there is ATA-MT or still mind. And the more one is ATA-MT or still mind (or other specific interior "practices"), the weaker ego becomes, and in turn the more 'free' one becomes, IOW, free of ego. And for gopal, what we generally mean by thought, is #3, the function of the neo-cortex. What gopal has meant by thought, it seems to me, is inclusive of #1, #1b, #2 and #3. And, so, gopal, you can stop telling us we're confused . (or not, your choice )........ Yes, exactly! Thanks, sdp.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Dec 26, 2014 20:26:33 GMT -5
I'll get to what I think silver means. We have a mind/body. You can divide the mind/body according to five functions, #3: abstract thinking, #2: emotion/feeling, #1: acting/moving (what the muscles have learned to do), #1a: sexual and #1b: instinctive functions plus sensations (what the mind/body does that doesn't have to be learned, breathing, digesting, heart-beating, perceiving stuff, etc.). The brain is composed of three brains; the oldest brain, the reptilian brain, which consists of the brain stem and the spinal column, controls #1, #1a, #1b. The next brain, which covers over the reptilian brain, is the mammalian brain which includes the limbic system, it controls #2, and functions relatively independently of the neo-cortex. The next brain is the neo-cortex (but has various other names, the forebrain, the frontal lobes, etc.), it is the outer layer of the brain so covers over the mammalian brain and is the source of #3, abstract conceptual thought. We are born with these "centers" functioning. When the mind/body experiences life, the experiences are stored in the mind/body. Abstractions, thoughts, are stored in the neural structure of the brain. Emotional memories can be, and are, stored throughout the mind/body. You have sensory neurons which connect the five senses to the brain, and you have motor neurons which connect the brain to the muscles so the mind/body can tell the muscles of the body what to do (run, walk, scratch your itching nose). Tolle's pain body is spread throughout the body, it's essentially the body's memory of trauma, either physical or emotional. It is related to what Wilhelm Reich called body armor. Ego is the stored memories of the centers, the memories of #3, #2, #1, #1a, #1b. IOW, the contents of the centers. Now, plugging all this into silver's language, her 'road' is all of this, the mind/body is the 'road' and when she says it doesn't disappear, what silver means that all this is still functioning when one is ATA-MT or the still mind.Now, for silver and gopal, what Tzu and zd and E are saying, is that ego is completely absent (the memories of the mind/body don't interfere) when there is ATA-MT or still mind. And the more one is ATA-MT or still mind (or other specific interior "practices"), the weaker ego becomes, and in turn the more 'free' one becomes, IOW, free of ego. And for gopal, what we generally mean by thought, is #3, the function of the neo-cortex. What gopal has meant by thought, it seems to me, is inclusive of #1, #1b, #2 and #3. And, so, gopal, you can stop telling us we're confused . (or not, your choice )........ Yes, exactly! Thanks, sdp.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 26, 2014 23:59:40 GMT -5
When you start to look what's happening in your mind, you feel that you are watching the thought flow,isn't it? That's the reason you came to the conclusion that 'looking' break the illusion,Isn't it? But what I am saying is, when you tend to look, you are creating another sort of thoughts that's looking thought, That's the reason I said looking is another kind of illusion that is being added when we try to break illusion using looking. Realization may happen and lot's recalling might happen along with your realization, I don't have any problem with that, but from our individual level you can't initiate any action(controlling,looking) to break the illusion, illusion would be broken by the impersonal movement of universe which includes all your mistakes. More closely put, mind can't pull off itself out of illusion. Agreed. I never said otherwise. Aren't you advicing the people that looking would break the illusion? I think you have written an article in your website 'looking through the illusion'. If you ask other to look into the illusion, then this looking would be added soon, this looking will not break the illusion which you are pointing at.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 27, 2014 0:04:29 GMT -5
To me, Outer world doesn't exist in itself. For me, everything is just an appearance in our consciousness. That's the reason I don't discriminate between outer world perception and inner world perception, I use perception as thought. I agree there is no inner/outer, but perception is more than just thought. There is sense perception and feeling. We both agree here inner world and outer world is just an appearance in our awareness, but where we differ is what we call outer world perception, we don't have a problem in the point that outer world too is an appearance, but I say this outer world perception is the shared one, if pen is there in your table, then this pen must have kept by someone or it must have created by someone, it would not appear without any cause as it appears in our dream, So outer world maintains the stability,In contrast,in dream there need not be a person who must have kept the pen in the table, it may just appear. Do you feel the difference?
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Post by lolly on Dec 27, 2014 3:16:07 GMT -5
I think that everything that is perceived is thought.
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Post by tzujanli on Dec 27, 2014 6:54:58 GMT -5
I think that everything that is perceived is thought. Have you never gone to the movies and watched scene after scene without thinking?.. often, people recall perceptions with internal dialogue.thought, and some recall the imagery without the internal dialogue..
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Post by lolly on Dec 27, 2014 8:56:54 GMT -5
Imagery is thought. Mostly people think only language is thought, but I reckon everything is a thought, language included.
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Post by zendancer on Dec 27, 2014 9:40:51 GMT -5
Sorry. I don't know what you mean. I'll get to what I think silver means. We have a mind/body. You can divide the mind/body according to five functions, #3: abstract thinking, #2: emotion/feeling, #1: acting/moving (what the muscles have learned to do), #1a: sexual and #1b: instinctive functions plus sensations (what the mind/body does that doesn't have to be learned, breathing, digesting, heart-beating, perceiving stuff, etc.). The brain is composed of three brains; the oldest brain, the reptilian brain, which consists of the brain stem and the spinal column, controls #1, #1a, #1b. The next brain, which covers over the reptilian brain, is the mammalian brain which includes the limbic system, it controls #2, and functions relatively independently of the neo-cortex. The next brain is the neo-cortex (but has various other names, the forebrain, the frontal lobes, etc.), it is the outer layer of the brain so covers over the mammalian brain and is the source of #3, abstract conceptual thought. We are born with these "centers" functioning. When the mind/body experiences life, the experiences are stored in the mind/body. Abstractions, thoughts, are stored in the neural structure of the brain. Emotional memories can be, and are, stored throughout the mind/body. You have sensory neurons which connect the five senses to the brain, and you have motor neurons which connect the brain to the muscles so the mind/body can tell the muscles of the body what to do (run, walk, scratch your itching nose). Tolle's pain body is spread throughout the body, it's essentially the body's memory of trauma, either physical or emotional. It is related to what Wilhelm Reich called body armor. Ego is the stored memories of the centers, the memories of #3, #2, #1, #1a, #1b. IOW, the contents of the centers. Now, plugging all this into silver's language, her 'road' is all of this, the mind/body is the 'road' and when she says it doesn't disappear, what silver means that all this is still there, still functioning when one is ATA-MT or the still mind. Now, for silver and gopal, what Tzu and zd and E are saying, is that ego is completely absent (the memories of the mind/body don't interfere) is not functioning, when there is ATA-MT or still mind (the gears and pulleys and bells and whistles, of ego, that constitute ego, have been temporarily disconnected). And the more one is ATA-MT or still mind (or other specific interior "practices"), the weaker ego becomes, and in turn the more 'free' one becomes, IOW, free of ego. And for gopal, what we generally mean by thought, is #3, the function of the neo-cortex. What gopal has meant by thought, it seems to me, is inclusive of #1, #1b, #2 and #3. And, so, gopal, you can stop telling us we're confused . (or not, your choice )........ And, hopefully last edit, to whom it may concern, all this and life doesn't make sense unless emptiness is form. SDP: Yes, I think you've spelled out the different ways peeps are using various words here, and I had pretty much reached the same conclusions as you had after reviewing this thread. My only question is, "What difference does it make in everyday life?" Based upon the experiences and realizations of this body/mind, life gets clearer, simpler, and easier as the mind becomes increasingly quiescent. When there is significant mental silence, there is no "checking," or second-guessing, or wondering what to do. The body/mind knows what to do directly (non-conceptually), and it does it. There is also great flexibility because there is no hard-core agenda; life flows like water, and is not obstructed or made difficult by the arising of unforeseen events. Without attachment-thinking and resistance to "what is" life is spacious and whole, and the body/mind moves fluidly in synch with the cosmos AS THE COSMOS. Other than getting free of the mind's dominance, by learning to interact with the world directly (non-conceptually), and seeing through the illusion of personal selfhood (which gets rid of a huge amount of self-referential thought and other unnecessary baggage), what are Gopal and others recommending? IOW, if there were total agreement with the way they see the overall situation, how would that change anything? Are we all pointing to the same way of being, and only quibbling over words and concepts, or are there some major differences in understanding that would affect the way everyday life is lived? I'm just curious what everyone's take is on this. Probably only someone who has driven a 356 Porsche will understand this next bit, but when I was in college my Dad bought me an older somewhat exotic Corvette as an enticement to finish my education rather than run off and see the world. It was a very powerful sexy machine, and it was lots of fun to drive. I couldn't imagine any car that would be more fun to drive. It had incredible power and the acceleration of a dragster. About 4 years later I was serving in the Air Force under an officer who owned a 356 Porsche with a souped-up super 90 engine. He was being transferred out of the country, and he asked if I would be interested in buying his car. I thought that his little bathtub of a car was ugly, and totally un-sexy, and in no way compared with my exotic vette. One day he suggested that I take his car out for a spin to see why he liked it, and I thought, "Sure, why not?" I got behind the wheel of his little car and took it up a deserted highway to about 100 mph. I was surprised that it would even go that fast, but he insisted that it would go much faster (he had bought it at a car show and it had some extra bells and whistles that gave it a top speed of about 135). I was also surprised at how silent the car was. He then suggested that I try the brakes, which were the air-cooled 4-wheel disc variety (new at that time), and I was surprised at how suddenly and smoothly the car could be brought to a stop. He then suggested that I drive the car on a curvy road to get a sense of how it cornered. On the very first tight turn my mind was totally blown by how flatly the car went around the corner, and the feeling of being one-with the car and one-with the road. It was as if I were inside a solid rock where everything moved as a single unit, me included. I had never before felt anything like that in an automobile. After we returned to the airbase, I bought the car, and after driving it for a few days, I sold the corvette. Over the years I have owned and driven many cars, including 911 Porsches, but I have never felt the same sense of physical oneness with the road that a 356 Porsche provided, and I'm sure that anyone who has ever driven one of those cars will know what I'm describing. Short of buying a 356 antique Porsche or a formula one racecar for a temporary experience of unity, there is only one other way that I know of that one can attain a lasting sense of unity and wholeness in everyday life, and it doesn't require the ownership of anything.
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Post by justlikeyou on Dec 27, 2014 10:08:51 GMT -5
I think that everything that is perceived is thought. Have you never gone to the movies and watched scene after scene without thinking?.. often, people recall perceptions with internal dialogue.thought, and some recall the imagery without the internal dialogue.. As I see it, you can not watch a movie, TV, read words from a book or even what I am writing now without thinking. These things become the source of your thinking for a time. Many people, in hopes of finding relief from their own mental noise enjoy turning their minds over to other peoples thoughts, i.e. the dialog of movies (someone thought it up, no?), music, song, books, internet forums etc as an escape from their own incessant internal dialog that they can't shut off, or stand to be alone with. In this they find a bit of relief in the externally structured focus of the thinking, and the forgetfulness of their problems, but none of this is freedom from thinking thoughts as I see it.
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Post by silver on Dec 27, 2014 10:27:41 GMT -5
Have you never gone to the movies and watched scene after scene without thinking?.. often, people recall perceptions with internal dialogue.thought, and some recall the imagery without the internal dialogue.. As I see it, you can not watch a movie, TV, read words from a book or even what I am writing now without thinking. These things become the source of your thinking for a time. Many people, in hopes of finding relief from their own mental noise enjoy turning their minds over to other peoples thoughts, i.e. the dialog of movies (someone thought it up, no?), music, song, books, internet forums etc as an escape from their own incessant internal dialog that they can't shut off, or stand to be alone with. In this they find a bit of relief in the externally structured focus of the thinking, and the forgetfulness of their problems, but none of this is freedom from thinking thoughts as I see it. I totally agree there....thing is, I really like ZD's car analogy and understand it ... in reverse, though, regarding having a 'souped up' mind - one that can get out of its own way, ha ha!
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Post by zendancer on Dec 27, 2014 10:32:53 GMT -5
Have you never gone to the movies and watched scene after scene without thinking?.. often, people recall perceptions with internal dialogue.thought, and some recall the imagery without the internal dialogue.. As I see it, you can not watch a movie, TV, read words from a book or even what I am writing now without thinking. These things become the source of your thinking for a time. Many people, in hopes of finding relief from their own mental noise enjoy turning their minds over to other peoples thoughts, i.e. the dialog of movies (someone thought it up, no?), music, song, books, internet forums etc as an escape from their own incessant internal dialog that they can't shut off, or stand to be alone with. In this they find a bit of relief in the externally structured focus of the thinking, and the forgetfulness of their problems, but none of this is freedom from thinking thoughts as I see it. JLY: You probably define thinking similarly to Silver, Gopal, and others. Or, it may be that you equate thinking with knowing. From my POV there is intellectual knowing (episteme), which I call "thinking" and there is direct body knowing (gnosis) which I do not consider thinking. The first requires internal language and engagement of the frontal cortex and the second does not. When I read words in a book or watch a movie, I rarely think about what's being experienced in terms of mental language or even mental images; there is direct understanding/knowing (gnosis), and I think this was Tzu's point. For me, thinking is a secondary overlay of direct perception and direct experience, so if there is mental silence, there is no thinking in the way that I use that term. If there is mental silence, then everything is direct--direct understanding, direct sensory perception, direct knowing, etc.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 27, 2014 10:36:35 GMT -5
Have you never gone to the movies and watched scene after scene without thinking?.. often, people recall perceptions with internal dialogue.thought, and some recall the imagery without the internal dialogue.. As I see it, you can not watch a movie, TV, read words from a book or even what I am writing now without thinking. These things become the source of your thinking for a time. Many people, in hopes of finding relief from their own mental noise enjoy turning their minds over to other peoples thoughts, i.e. the dialog of movies (someone thought it up, no?), music, song, books, internet forums etc as an escape from their own incessant internal dialog that they can't shut off, or stand to be alone with. In this they find a bit of relief in the externally structured focus of the thinking, and the forgetfulness of their problems, but none of this is freedom from thinking thoughts as I see it. if thoughts are defined as the marquee of words making commentary on what is seen... then I disagree. all of those things can be done without the mental commentary....
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Post by zendancer on Dec 27, 2014 10:38:24 GMT -5
As another way of considering this issue, what about plants or one-celled animals? Do they think? From my perspective they do not think, because they have no higher-level brain functions, but they are directly aware of their environment. Humans have that same kind of direct awareness and ability to respond to their environment without needing to engage the intellect, so when they respond that way, thinking, as I define it, is unnecessary.
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