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Post by silver on Dec 17, 2014 12:49:07 GMT -5
Very funny.... Just Kidding -- Right, we are back to silvering as if nothing had ever happened. I'm wondering what your clear moments were actually about. tbc in um thread ...
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Post by enigma on Dec 17, 2014 18:39:58 GMT -5
It CAN be both. Have you ever felt an object in a dream? There are no external objects in dreams, so how is that possible? Bloody nose in dream, no bloody nose when awakened.. the experiencer only 'imagines' there is an object felt in the dream, illusion.. you're not addressing the actuality, you keep trying to convince people to buy into your dream.. now, in the dream many things appear to happen that are without consequence to the awakened experiencer, but.. if someone begins to beat your awake presence about the head and shoulders with the 2X4, i suspect there will be some real pain/resistance/consequences.. SDP declared it was not possible to stub your toe if there is no object. While in the dream, you may stub your toe, and yet from the waking state you can see there was no object. I'm just pointing to the experience of stubbing your toe in the absence of an object. That experience obviously IS possible. From the waking state, you conclude the experience was an illusion, but while in the dream state, you have no way of knowing if it is illusion by examining your experience. In the same way that one can transition from the sleeping state to the waking state and realize the former was illusion, one can also transition from the normal waking state to the awakened (self realized) state and realize the former was also illusion, but while in the normal waking state you have no way of knowing if it is illusion or not by examining your experience.
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Post by enigma on Dec 17, 2014 18:41:25 GMT -5
All you have to do is still your mind and look. Does that rez with you? It does rez.. that's the message i have been try to get across to you, so we're on the same page, here.. sweet!! Unfortunately, we're reading different books.
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Post by tzujanli on Dec 17, 2014 19:43:42 GMT -5
Bloody nose in dream, no bloody nose when awakened.. the experiencer only 'imagines' there is an object felt in the dream, illusion.. you're not addressing the actuality, you keep trying to convince people to buy into your dream.. now, in the dream many things appear to happen that are without consequence to the awakened experiencer, but.. if someone begins to beat your awake presence about the head and shoulders with the 2X4, i suspect there will be some real pain/resistance/consequences.. SDP declared it was not possible to stub your toe if there is no object. While in the dream, you may stub your toe, and yet from the waking state you can see there was no object. I'm just pointing to the experience of stubbing your toe in the absence of an object. That experience obviously IS possible. From the waking state, you conclude the experience was an illusion, but while in the dream state, you have no way of knowing if it is illusion by examining your experience. In the same way that one can transition from the sleeping state to the waking state and realize the former was illusion, one can also transition from the normal waking state to the awakened (self realized) state and realize the former was also illusion, but while in the normal waking state you have no way of knowing if it is illusion or not by examining your experience. No, you are not stubbing your toe in the dream, you are imagining that a toe is stubbed.. In the waking state, the still mind's awareness transcends states.. it, realizes the folly of attaching to imagined beliefs about dreams.. superstitious folks have always imagined dreams to be more than the mind's spontaneous imaginings.. By your logic, your so called 'awakened (self-realized) state' would have equal potential to be just another illusion to wake up from.. you are attached to ideas about your experiences, let your mind be still and see the experiences clearly..
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Post by enigma on Dec 17, 2014 20:22:43 GMT -5
SDP declared it was not possible to stub your toe if there is no object. While in the dream, you may stub your toe, and yet from the waking state you can see there was no object. I'm just pointing to the experience of stubbing your toe in the absence of an object. That experience obviously IS possible. From the waking state, you conclude the experience was an illusion, but while in the dream state, you have no way of knowing if it is illusion by examining your experience. In the same way that one can transition from the sleeping state to the waking state and realize the former was illusion, one can also transition from the normal waking state to the awakened (self realized) state and realize the former was also illusion, but while in the normal waking state you have no way of knowing if it is illusion or not by examining your experience. No, you are not stubbing your toe in the dream, you are imagining that a toe is stubbed.. It is an actual experience of toe stubbing. It is also imagination, but then so is the waking state. No, because nothing remains that is not illusion, save the One who knows that, who is not a somebody.
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Post by Reefs on Dec 17, 2014 22:07:27 GMT -5
Really, you are giving it a totally different spin, intentionally or unintentionally, I don't know. If you would just stick to the original words on the page, discussions with you would be less cumbersome and actually get to the point instead of always veering off into discussions about linguistics. Why is it so difficult for you to just read what has been written? Aren't these the original words on the page? Please tell me that you are just kidding. edit: I guess the short path to what piqued my interest when you said that, would be to ask you; What does 'self realization' mean to you...how do you define it? My understanding of self realization is obviously different as it would not apply to bodily cells....even metaphorically....as the crucial foundation of self realization (as I see it) is being self aware...conscious. Consciousness is all there is. The brain and the body and the mind appear in consciousness as consciousness and not the other way around, i.e mind and consciousness as a function of the brain and the body. If that's clear, then the question "can there be self-realization in a brain dead comatose patient?" doesn't even make sense. The other part of the confusion is your context change which I've already addressed. Sure there are different degrees of being self-conscious. A-H once mentioned the saying "as happy as a clam" - and that's exactly pointing to my statement that the cells are already self-realized.
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Post by Reefs on Dec 17, 2014 22:13:38 GMT -5
Some even may conclude that this could go on forever and that there might be no end to it and so they just call off the self-inquiry. Yes and I am sure that many fall at the first hurdle . Perseverance, patience, dedication, discipline and such likes really pay dividends .. What you put in is what you get out as the saying goes, I would say this has been the case for me . At a point I was automatically drawn into self, it's as if there was a great deal of effort at first and then at a point there was more of a flow that goes with the grain rather than against the grain . I would also like to add that those that fall at the first hurdle fall by no accident . Mere interest is not enough. Mere interest usually means looking for personal pleasure. Those folks are fickle and run for the hills as soon as it's not all fun and games anymore. Real self-inquiry is impersonal. You just can't turn it off. It will consume you and eventually be the end of you as you've known yourself in the most radical and complete way.
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Post by figgles on Dec 18, 2014 0:15:09 GMT -5
Consciousness is all there is. The brain and the body and the mind appear in consciousness as consciousness and not the other way around, i.e mind and consciousness as a function of the brain and the body. If that's clear, then the question "can there be self-realization in a brain dead comatose patient?" doesn't even make sense. How are you defining 'self realization'? What does that terms mean to you? Yes, I agree..... But do you see bodily cells as being 'conscious or aware of self' (to any degree)? Can you explain more how that relates to you saying the "cells are already self realized"...I really don't see the connection....I don't see cells or clams as being 'happy' per se...
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Post by Reefs on Dec 18, 2014 0:28:01 GMT -5
Consciousness is all there is. The brain and the body and the mind appear in consciousness as consciousness and not the other way around, i.e mind and consciousness as a function of the brain and the body. If that's clear, then the question "can there be self-realization in a brain dead comatose patient?" doesn't even make sense. How are you defining 'self realization'? What does that terms mean to you? Yes, I agree..... But do you see bodily cells as being 'conscious or aware of self' (to any degree)? Can you explain more how that relates to you saying the "cells are already self realized"...I really don't see the connection....I don't see cells or clams as being 'happy' per se... Well, do you see the cells as separate volitional entities?
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Post by figgles on Dec 18, 2014 0:33:35 GMT -5
How are you defining 'self realization'? What does that terms mean to you? Yes, I agree..... But do you see bodily cells as being 'conscious or aware of self' (to any degree)? Can you explain more how that relates to you saying the "cells are already self realized"...I really don't see the connection....I don't see cells or clams as being 'happy' per se... Well, do you see the cells as separate volitional entities?Depends how deep I'm looking, what aspect of cells I'm looking at, and where I'm looking from. I can see and say all sorts of stuff about bodily cells, but am not seeing how they could be self aware in the sense that I would refer to them as 'self realized.' Again....How do you define 'self realization? And can you explain more about the 'happy as a clam' bit..?
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Post by Reefs on Dec 18, 2014 0:37:09 GMT -5
Well, do you see the cells as separate volitional entities? Depends how deep I'm looking, what aspect of cells I'm looking at, and where I'm looking from. I can see and say all sorts of stuff about bodily cells, but am not seeing how they could be self aware in the sense that I would refer to them as 'self realized.' Again....How do you define 'self realization? And can you explain more about the 'happy as a clam' bit..? Maybe another day.
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Post by figgles on Dec 18, 2014 0:41:50 GMT -5
Depends how deep I'm looking, what aspect of cells I'm looking at, and where I'm looking from. I can see and say all sorts of stuff about bodily cells, but am not seeing how they could be self aware in the sense that I would refer to them as 'self realized.' Again....How do you define 'self realization? And can you explain more about the 'happy as a clam' bit..? Maybe another day. ...I won't hold my breath.
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Post by Reefs on Dec 18, 2014 0:46:18 GMT -5
...I won't hold my breath. The story seems to be already written. Nice.
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Post by tenka on Dec 18, 2014 2:39:41 GMT -5
Yes and I am sure that many fall at the first hurdle . Perseverance, patience, dedication, discipline and such likes really pay dividends .. What you put in is what you get out as the saying goes, I would say this has been the case for me . At a point I was automatically drawn into self, it's as if there was a great deal of effort at first and then at a point there was more of a flow that goes with the grain rather than against the grain . I would also like to add that those that fall at the first hurdle fall by no accident . Mere interest is not enough. Mere interest usually means looking for personal pleasure. Those folks are fickle and run for the hills as soon as it's not all fun and games anymore. Real self-inquiry is impersonal. You just can't turn it off. It will consume you and eventually be the end of you as you've known yourself in the most radical and complete way. I agree with that ...
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Post by laughter on Dec 18, 2014 8:58:28 GMT -5
...I won't hold my breath. The story seems to be already written. Nice. She lost control of this artwork as it was quite obvious from the exchange that she was demanding a direct answer from you while refusing to offer one of her own.
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