|
Post by figgles on Dec 17, 2014 0:29:44 GMT -5
I will most certainly give it a try: Why do you spend so much time here, doing whatever it is you're doing, which I say that because I honestly don't understand what it is you're doing -- but it seems as if you're trying to teach people about non-duality - is that correct? If that IS what you're doing or trying to do, then why use the 'gruff' method on everybody? You can't seem to change, either. I don't see anything any less childish about that than what you accuse me of acting childish for, to be honest. So, the next question that crossed my mind is, is it just to kill time? Incidentally, I've been around a LOT of people in my life, and I know that if I asked a question like I originally did, they would know I was asking a question. And if they had an honest bone in their body, they would respond. It seems the story has already been written. Why even ask? You are operating under a flawed premise. Non-duality is not a philosophy and can therefore never be a teaching. If the story's been already written, she'd have no questions. Evidently, Silver does has questions, as do I. The "story" appears to have some holes. My question, once again is: Can you elaborate on your assertion that in a brain dead body, the "cells of the body are already self realized"?
|
|
|
Post by Reefs on Dec 17, 2014 0:51:17 GMT -5
It seems the story has already been written. Why even ask? You are operating under a flawed premise. Non-duality is not a philosophy and can therefore never be a teaching. I know what I meant and I'm sure you know what you would've responded with, if you would/could only see that I ask in all innocence -- You won't respond in a way that would or could possibly reflect that I have an innocent curiosity. It seems no one can please you or certain other members of this forum with the precise and exacting verbiage, so you will put it at the doorstep of those who genuinely want to know but don't quite know how or if they wanna dance to your tune. I'm not operating under anything except my own innate curiosity and I'm done talking to you - I don't feel safe exchanging posts with you. Aww, the sniper didn't get the bickering she wanted and now she takes her ball and leaves.
|
|
|
Post by Reefs on Dec 17, 2014 0:53:29 GMT -5
It seems the story has already been written. Why even ask? You are operating under a flawed premise. Non-duality is not a philosophy and can therefore never be a teaching. If the story's been already written, she'd have no questions. Evidently, Silver does has questions, as do I. The "story" appears to have some holes. Well, that's my point. And, evidently, she already answered her questions before she asked them. Just read carefully her posts again. My question, once again is: Can you elaborate on your assertion that in a brain dead body, the "cells of the body are already self realized"? You are putting words into my mouth again.
|
|
|
Post by figgles on Dec 17, 2014 1:01:34 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by earnest on Dec 17, 2014 1:18:30 GMT -5
You're the one who added in the brain dead bit. I'll reply to your question about my experience of the cells already being self realized in a few days. I'm away for a bit and have patchy to non existent interenet coverage.
|
|
|
Post by figgles on Dec 17, 2014 1:50:58 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by Reefs on Dec 17, 2014 2:18:14 GMT -5
Really, you are giving it a totally different spin, intentionally or unintentionally, I don't know. If you would just stick to the original words on the page, discussions with you would be less cumbersome and actually get to the point instead of always veering off into discussions about linguistics. Why is it so difficult for you to just read what has been written?
|
|
|
Post by Reefs on Dec 17, 2014 2:20:35 GMT -5
Aww, the sniper didn't get the bickering she wanted and now she takes her ball and leaves. Very funny.... Just Kidding -- Right, we are back to silvering as if nothing had ever happened. I'm wondering what your clear moments were actually about.
|
|
|
Post by tenka on Dec 17, 2014 4:15:38 GMT -5
As layers of self dissolve one feels at the time that this is really who I am . Then another layer dissolves and one feels, no this is really who I am . This can go on and on for sometime until the realization happens .Only in mind can one distinguish the so called before and after effects of the realization and there is for sure a distinct taste ascertained that anything in mind is likened to an artificial sweetner compared to the taste of natural cane . So we have the mind and beyond, we have the artificial sweetner and the natural cane but the cane and the sweetner are only existing so one can tell the difference between their taste .. Some perhaps entertain what is real and what is illusionary within the same environment (being the mind) and some may perhaps just relate to the mind as being the dream platform so nothing of the mind is real and yet if one relates to what we are as being real then what we are that is of the mind is also real . Maybe one can only go by what one has been aware of in relation to self and take it from there, I can entertain that dreams can be real but it does depend on one's actual point of self reference in relation to the dream and in relation to a so called awakened self . Some even may conclude that this could go on forever and that there might be no end to it and so they just call off the self-inquiry. Yes and I am sure that many fall at the first hurdle . Perseverance, patience, dedication, discipline and such likes really pay dividends .. What you put in is what you get out as the saying goes, I would say this has been the case for me . At a point I was automatically drawn into self, it's as if there was a great deal of effort at first and then at a point there was more of a flow that goes with the grain rather than against the grain . I would also like to add that those that fall at the first hurdle fall by no accident .
|
|
|
Post by tzujanli on Dec 17, 2014 6:11:54 GMT -5
If there are no external objects, then how can you stump your toe on the bedpost? .........IOW, it can't be both. It CAN be both. Have you ever felt an object in a dream? There are no external objects in dreams, so how is that possible? Bloody nose in dream, no bloody nose when awakened.. the experiencer only 'imagines' there is an object felt in the dream, illusion.. you're not addressing the actuality, you keep trying to convince people to buy into your dream.. now, in the dream many things appear to happen that are without consequence to the awakened experiencer, but.. if someone begins to beat your awake presence about the head and shoulders with the 2X4, i suspect there will be some real pain/resistance/consequences..
|
|
|
Post by tzujanli on Dec 17, 2014 6:14:29 GMT -5
That's a great imagining, but.. let's stay on topic, you say that illusion can be seen through with absolute certainty, but you offer no explanation to back that up.. and, the more you are asked, the more you spin illusions to avoid answering.. All you have to do is still your mind and look. Does that rez with you? It does rez.. that's the message i have been try to get across to you, so we're on the same page, here.. sweet!!
|
|
|
Post by figgles on Dec 17, 2014 10:48:07 GMT -5
Really, you are giving it a totally different spin, intentionally or unintentionally, I don't know. If you would just stick to the original words on the page, discussions with you would be less cumbersome and actually get to the point instead of always veering off into discussions about linguistics. Why is it so difficult for you to just read what has been written? Aren't these the original words on the page? edit: I guess the short path to what piqued my interest when you said that, would be to ask you; What does 'self realization' mean to you...how do you define it? My understanding of self realization is obviously different as it would not apply to bodily cells....even metaphorically....as the crucial foundation of self realization (as I see it) is being self aware...conscious.
|
|
|
Post by stardustpilgrim on Dec 17, 2014 10:58:02 GMT -5
Hey everybody.......I figured this thread might devolve into personal stuff, but I put it here in the GSD section to try to keep that from happening. We've done pretty good so far, but we're there, now (some of us anyway...). I just made a thread in the un-moderated section, What's real and what's illusion spillover. Please take personal stuff there.........thanks.......
|
|
|
Post by silver on Dec 17, 2014 12:40:35 GMT -5
Hey everybody.......I figured this thread might devolve into personal stuff, but I put it here in the GSD section to try to keep that from happening. We've done pretty good so far, but we're there, now (some of us anyway...). I just made a thread in the un-moderated section, What's real and what's illusion spillover. Please take personal stuff there.........thanks....... I'll gladly delete mine, but I don't know how to move them to the other section, fyi....not that they'd be missed.
|
|
|
Post by silver on Dec 17, 2014 12:43:23 GMT -5
Not correct. Emptiness is form, form is emptiness, means that if you stump your toe, it's gonna hurt. It doesn't mean that the non-dual dreamer stumped an imaginary toe that had an imaginary pain. Seung Sahn agrees and comments: "The Heart Sutra teaches that “form is emptiness, and emptiness is form.” Many people don’t know what this means — even some long-time students of meditation. But there is a very easy way to see this in our everyday lives. For example, here is a wooden chair. It is brown. It is solid and heavy. It looks like it could last a long time. You sit in the chair, and it holds up your weight. You can place things on it. But then you light the chair on fire and leave. When you come back later, the chair is no longer there! This thing that seemed so solid and strong and real is now just a pile of cinder and ash which the wind blows around. This example shows how the chair is empty: it is not a permanent, abiding thing. It is always changing. It has no independent existence. Over a long or short time, the chair will eventually change and become something other than what it appears. So this brown chair is complete emptiness. But though it always has the quality of emptiness, this emptiness is form: you can sit in the chair, and it will still hold you up. “Form is emptiness, and emptiness is form.”" Further, Sahn: " All dharmas are marked with emptiness..." ...In the true experience of emptiness, there are no words and no speech, so there is also no dharma. When you open your mouth to say “All dharmas are marked with emptiness,” that is already no longer emptiness. So be careful. The point of this is that if you just understand words and speech, and keep only an intellectual understanding, this sutra and any other sutra cannot help your life. Some actual attainment of what these words point to is necessary." 'some actual attainment' is something I've heard here too. "These words in the Heart Sutra are only wonderful speech and words. But however interesting or wonderful the speech and words are, if you just understand them conceptually, they cannot help your life. Again, you must truly attain something. You must attain that there is actually nothing to attain. Everything is already truth, exactly as it is. You are already complete. But be careful! Merely understanding these beautiful words is one thing, and attaining them is quite another." ... " Gate, gate, paragate, parasamgate, bodhi svaha!"So there is yet one more step. If you attain emptiness, and then attain truth, how does this world’s truth function to help other beings? All Buddhas attain anuttara samyak sambodhi, or unexcelled perfect enlightenment. This means that they attain truth. They can see that the sky is blue, and the tree is green. At the end of the sutra we are told that there is a great transcendent mantra, a great bright mantra, an utmost mantra, a supreme mantra: Gate, gate, paragate, parasamgate, bodhi svaha. It can be translated as “Gone, gone, gone to the other shore beyond.” So this mantra at the end of the Heart Sutra means only action. Up until this point, everything is just speech and words about attaining emptiness and truth. It is all a lot of very interesting description. But this mantra means you must just do it. Some kind of action is necessary if you want to help this world. For the bodhisattva, there is only bodhisattva action. When you attain unexcelled perfect enlightenment, you must attain the function of this enlightenment in the world. That is what we call moment world. From moment to moment, perceive suffering in this world and only help all beings. That is a very important point. "Attaining truth alone is not enough. If someone is thirsty, give them something to drink. If someone is hungry, give them food. When a suffering person appears before you, you only help, with no thinking or checking. The early part of this sutra has no “do-it,” just good speech about attainment and no-attainment. But if you attain something, you must do it. That is the meaning behind Gate, gate, paragate, parasamgate, bodhi svaha. Step by step, we attain how to function compassionately for others, to use truth for others, spontaneously, from moment to moment. This is the whole point of the Heart Sutra." This is nice -- bump
|
|