|
Post by zendancer on Dec 15, 2014 9:04:02 GMT -5
Are you under the impression that nonduality means to offer a way to function in the world? No, that's my point. Non-duality doesn't seem to explain how we function in the world. Edit: Let me put it this way. I don't understand what the difference is in a mind previous to a non-dual realization and after non-dual realization. SDP: Your question seems to contain at least one misconception--that there is one single event (non-dual realization) that changes everything. On rare occasions this might be the case, but it is not usually the case. Each body/mind follows a unique path, but we can generalize about what commonly happens when people search for the Absolute. Let's consider what usually happens. In doing so I'm going to base this description upon dozens of conversations with self-realized individuals and dozens of spiritual autobiographies of "enlightened" people. The typical body/mind searching for truth is usually consumed by the need to understand reality. S/he has usually exhausted explorations in traditional religions and philosophy. At some point, either through an out-of-the-blue sort of experience/glimpse or an experience/glimpse triggered by intense meditation/contemplation, there is a realization of the non-dual nature of reality. For some people this comes in the form of a cosmic-consciousness experience, and for other people it is a direct seeing into the non-dual nature of reality, but either way the result is a realization that the entire cosmos is a unified whole. Most of the people I personally know had big initial CC experiences which resulted in numerous realizations, but there are some people who simply had a big realization without that sort of experience. In either case, except in extremely rare cases, this was only a first step. Does this sort of realization change one's life? Absolutely. One guy studying for his doctorate in biochemistry, lost all interest in science and focused all of his attention on joining a Zen group and studying under a Zen Master to deepen his understanding. One guy was sort of a hippie with no direction, but afterwards he, too, found a master and devoted his life to spirituality. One guy, a well-known entertainer, knew nothing about Zen or non-dual traditions, and he continued life as an entertainer, while continuing to search for more answers. You already know the story of Tolle. Gangaji, Adya, and a dozen other current teachers had something similar happen. In almost all cases, there was an initial breakthrough, which revealed a great deal, but many many questions remained. In short, non-dual realization is not enlightenment, and it usually does not result in self-realization. The event that frees someone from the search for truth is the realization that can be summarized as, "I am the cosmos, rather than a person." In the Zen tradition this is called "satori." Does this change people? Yes. Most importantly, it totally ends the search, because it is finally realized that the searcher was not who one thought it was. But there are dozens of other subtle changes. Until one deeply penetrates the illusion of selfhood, and becomes free from the dominance of mind, one cannot realize how much of life revolves around self-centered thoughts and the idea that there is a person at the center of what's happening. When that thought structure collapses, life becomes free-flowing and all kinds of subtle resistancies, expectations, and desires fall away. It's like becoming the watcher of a play, or becoming part of a happening, without a center that needs anything. Life becomes empty and full at the same time--empty of a self-center, but full of everything that's happening. AAR, there's no way to adequately describe it; one can only go there, relax, be as you are, and discover what life is like when the prior sense of self is gone.
|
|
|
Post by stardustpilgrim on Dec 15, 2014 16:13:33 GMT -5
Thanks zd, that helps.
|
|
|
Post by stardustpilgrim on Dec 15, 2014 17:41:46 GMT -5
I first heard about Taisen Deshimaru some years ago, I found his book The Zen Way to the Martial Arts in a used bookstore. His clarity was simple yet profound. I felt he was deeply enlightened and kept my eye out for other books. This morning I noticed one of his books in a pile and thumbed through it again, and found the following.
chapter "Ku .....vacuity...... Ku is empty, but that is not all it means. Sometimes it should be translated "the totality of the cosmos". The ideogram can mean either the void or the sky. It is also the circle which includes everything. The true nature of ku is neither existence nor nonexistence, but both at once, depending upon one's viewpoint. All things are change. Out of ku, emptiness, phenomenon are born; and in the end everything returns to ku, zero. All things start from zero and come back to zero, including the cells of our body. The Hannya Shingyo Sutra says that in the realm of ku, of vacuity, nothing grows and nothing decreases. In ku, everything equals zero. It is mu shin, no mind, no consciousness. During zazen your mind moves from thought to thought, or from non-thought to thought or from non-thought to thought, or from thought to non-thought or from non-thought to non-thought. In any case, the point of intersection is zero. Whenever your state of consciousness moves, changes, you pass through zero. Ku is the Japanese word for the Sanskrit term sunyata, the void, relativity. This is not a negation of existence per se, but an affirmation of the relativity of existence, which is dependent upon causality and the interdependence of all other existences. The factors of causality are changing all the time; there cannot be such a thing as a static existence. So sunyata denies the possibility of any form of static phenomenal existence; all phenomenon are relative and depend upon other phenomenon. Everything, even the law or Dharma, is sunyata, relative, and hence dependent. Thus sunyata must not be confused with the negation of existence of phenomena in any form. Sunyata is the cosmos, existence without substance, the principle of ku.
During zazen we experience great tranquility. The brain grows calm. We can meditate profoundly. Many ideas arise. If you want true wisdom you must continue zazen; and after zazen, through zazen, true wisdom can develop; because all phenomenon are created out of ku. But neglecting existence for the sake of ku is also a sickness, like diving into water to get away from the rain or plunging into fire to escape from fire. That is stagnant zazen, and it is the product of a deluded effort to grasp the truth. That kind of zazen becomes decoration, artifice; it is sheer technique, imitation. If you are merely applying a method, you will become weak or stupid. If you don't understand, then practice, do nothing but practice. That way, if you make a mistake, it will be only a phenomenon, shiki. All existences, all illusions, are ultimately ku. And in reality there is neither illusion nor disillusion, neither true nor false, neither darkness nor light. Total light is all darkness and all darkness becomes light. Light is the world of differentiation; in darkness identity reigns. Light becomes dark, dark becomes light. Buddha-nature becomes human existence, and so human existences are Buddha-nature, original nature. At death, body and consciousness disappear while karma and cosmic life continue eternally; to die means to go back to ku, our true essence.
According to Buddhist philosophy of ku, all existences in the cosmos, or the reality of all phenomenon, must be denied; and even in ourselves there is no fixed or immovable central substance. Originally, the Buddha way transcends itself, and there is no notion of abundance or lack. Nevertheless, there are appearance and disappearance, illusion and satori, sentient beings and Buddha. But even though that is so, the flowers fade, however much we love and miss them, and weeds grow, however much we neglect and spurn them. When we look at life full on, there are two contradictory things: difference and identity, affirmation and negation. How can we find or create the real value of our life? To apprehend all phenomenon, all existences, as the truth that engenders activity and creates-this is creative logic, beyond the affirmation of phenomenon and the negation of phenomenon. So what can solve the inner problems of the mind is the possibility of following, of applying this logic. It embraces all the contradictions in the world, without drawing a line between object and subject". pages 120,121,122
The Ring of the Way, Testament of a Zen Master by Taisen Deshimaru, EP Dutton 1983, 1987
I think that speaks to the question of what's real and what's illusion. To re-quote the quote: "Thus, sunyata must not be confused with the negation of the existence of phenomena in any form". and I think it is obvious TD was familiar with the Heart Sutra, which contains, "emptiness is form, form is emptiness"...........and I think the passage is quite beautiful.........
|
|
|
Post by enigma on Dec 15, 2014 19:54:12 GMT -5
I first heard about Taisen Deshimaru some years ago, I found his book The Zen Way to the Martial Arts in a used bookstore. His clarity was simple yet profound. I felt he was deeply enlightened and kept my eye out for other books. This morning I noticed one of his books in a pile and thumbed through it again, and found the following. chapter " Ku .....vacuity...... Ku is empty, but that is not all it means. Sometimes it should be translated "the totality of the cosmos". The ideogram can mean either the void or the sky. It is also the circle which includes everything. The true nature of ku is neither existence nor nonexistence, but both at once, depending upon one's viewpoint. All things are change. Out of ku, emptiness, phenomenon are born; and in the end everything returns to ku, zero. All things start from zero and come back to zero, including the cells of our body. The Hannya Shingyo Sutra says that in the realm of ku, of vacuity, nothing grows and nothing decreases. In ku, everything equals zero. It is mu shin, no mind, no consciousness. During zazen your mind moves from thought to thought, or from non-thought to thought or from non-thought to thought, or from thought to non-thought or from non-thought to non-thought. In any case, the point of intersection is zero. Whenever your state of consciousness moves, changes, you pass through zero. Ku is the Japanese word for the Sanskrit term sunyata, the void, relativity. This is not a negation of existence per se, but an affirmation of the relativity of existence, which is dependent upon causality and the interdependence of all other existences. The factors of causality are changing all the time; there cannot be such a thing as a static existence. So sunyata denies the possibility of any form of static phenomenal existence; all phenomenon are relative and depend upon other phenomenon. Everything, even the law or Dharma, is sunyata, relative, and hence dependent. Thus sunyata must not be confused with the negation of existence of phenomena in any form. Sunyata is the cosmos, existence without substance, the principle of ku. During zazen we experience great tranquility. The brain grows calm. We can meditate profoundly. Many ideas arise. If you want true wisdom you must continue zazen; and after zazen, through zazen, true wisdom can develop; because all phenomenon are created out of ku. But neglecting existence for the sake of ku is also a sickness, like diving into water to get away from the rain or plunging into fire to escape from fire. That is stagnant zazen, and it is the product of a deluded effort to grasp the truth. That kind of zazen becomes decoration, artifice; it is sheer technique, imitation. If you are merely applying a method, you will become weak or stupid. If you don't understand, then practice, do nothing but practice. That way, if you make a mistake, it will be only a phenomenon, shiki. All existences, all illusions, are ultimately ku. And in reality there is neither illusion nor disillusion, neither true nor false, neither darkness nor light. Total light is all darkness and all darkness becomes light. Light is the world of differentiation; in darkness identity reigns. Light becomes dark, dark becomes light. Buddha-nature becomes human existence, and so human existences are Buddha-nature, original nature. At death, body and consciousness disappear while karma and cosmic life continue eternally; to die means to go back to ku, our true essence. According to Buddhist philosophy of ku, all existences in the cosmos, or the reality of all phenomenon, must be denied; and even in ourselves there is no fixed or immovable central substance. Originally, the Buddha way transcends itself, and there is no notion of abundance or lack. Nevertheless, there are appearance and disappearance, illusion and satori, sentient beings and Buddha. But even though that is so, the flowers fade, however much we love and miss them, and weeds grow, however much we neglect and spurn them. When we look at life full on, there are two contradictory things: difference and identity, affirmation and negation. How can we find or create the real value of our life? To apprehend all phenomenon, all existences, as the truth that engenders activity and creates-this is creative logic, beyond the affirmation of phenomenon and the negation of phenomenon. So what can solve the inner problems of the mind is the possibility of following, of applying this logic. It embraces all the contradictions in the world, without drawing a line between object and subject". pages 120,121,122 The Ring of the Way, Testament of a Zen Master by Taisen Deshimaru, EP Dutton 1983, 1987 I think that speaks to the question of what's real and what's illusion. To re-quote the quote: "Thus, sunyata must not be confused with the negation of the existence of phenomena in any form". and I think it is obvious TD was familiar with the Heart Sutra, which contains, "emptiness is form, form is emptiness"...........and I think the passage is quite beautiful......... The negation of phenomena is a common idea, and in my experience the idea is argued against far more than it is affirmed. For example, to my knowledge, nobody on this forum promotes that idea, but there are many who argue against it as though it IS being promoted. There seems to be a strong inclination to identify illusion as 'not real'. So strong, in fact, that I've given up trying to say it has nothing to do with real or unreal, because peeps are not hearing me.
|
|
|
Post by stardustpilgrim on Dec 15, 2014 20:01:19 GMT -5
I first heard about Taisen Deshimaru some years ago, I found his book The Zen Way to the Martial Arts in a used bookstore. His clarity was simple yet profound. I felt he was deeply enlightened and kept my eye out for other books. This morning I noticed one of his books in a pile and thumbed through it again, and found the following. chapter " Ku .....vacuity...... Ku is empty, but that is not all it means. Sometimes it should be translated "the totality of the cosmos". The ideogram can mean either the void or the sky. It is also the circle which includes everything. The true nature of ku is neither existence nor nonexistence, but both at once, depending upon one's viewpoint. All things are change. Out of ku, emptiness, phenomenon are born; and in the end everything returns to ku, zero. All things start from zero and come back to zero, including the cells of our body. The Hannya Shingyo Sutra says that in the realm of ku, of vacuity, nothing grows and nothing decreases. In ku, everything equals zero. It is mu shin, no mind, no consciousness. During zazen your mind moves from thought to thought, or from non-thought to thought or from non-thought to thought, or from thought to non-thought or from non-thought to non-thought. In any case, the point of intersection is zero. Whenever your state of consciousness moves, changes, you pass through zero. Ku is the Japanese word for the Sanskrit term sunyata, the void, relativity. This is not a negation of existence per se, but an affirmation of the relativity of existence, which is dependent upon causality and the interdependence of all other existences. The factors of causality are changing all the time; there cannot be such a thing as a static existence. So sunyata denies the possibility of any form of static phenomenal existence; all phenomenon are relative and depend upon other phenomenon. Everything, even the law or Dharma, is sunyata, relative, and hence dependent. Thus sunyata must not be confused with the negation of existence of phenomena in any form. Sunyata is the cosmos, existence without substance, the principle of ku. During zazen we experience great tranquility. The brain grows calm. We can meditate profoundly. Many ideas arise. If you want true wisdom you must continue zazen; and after zazen, through zazen, true wisdom can develop; because all phenomenon are created out of ku. But neglecting existence for the sake of ku is also a sickness, like diving into water to get away from the rain or plunging into fire to escape from fire. That is stagnant zazen, and it is the product of a deluded effort to grasp the truth. That kind of zazen becomes decoration, artifice; it is sheer technique, imitation. If you are merely applying a method, you will become weak or stupid. If you don't understand, then practice, do nothing but practice. That way, if you make a mistake, it will be only a phenomenon, shiki. All existences, all illusions, are ultimately ku. And in reality there is neither illusion nor disillusion, neither true nor false, neither darkness nor light. Total light is all darkness and all darkness becomes light. Light is the world of differentiation; in darkness identity reigns. Light becomes dark, dark becomes light. Buddha-nature becomes human existence, and so human existences are Buddha-nature, original nature. At death, body and consciousness disappear while karma and cosmic life continue eternally; to die means to go back to ku, our true essence. According to Buddhist philosophy of ku, all existences in the cosmos, or the reality of all phenomenon, must be denied; and even in ourselves there is no fixed or immovable central substance. Originally, the Buddha way transcends itself, and there is no notion of abundance or lack. Nevertheless, there are appearance and disappearance, illusion and satori, sentient beings and Buddha. But even though that is so, the flowers fade, however much we love and miss them, and weeds grow, however much we neglect and spurn them. When we look at life full on, there are two contradictory things: difference and identity, affirmation and negation. How can we find or create the real value of our life? To apprehend all phenomenon, all existences, as the truth that engenders activity and creates-this is creative logic, beyond the affirmation of phenomenon and the negation of phenomenon. So what can solve the inner problems of the mind is the possibility of following, of applying this logic. It embraces all the contradictions in the world, without drawing a line between object and subject". pages 120,121,122 The Ring of the Way, Testament of a Zen Master by Taisen Deshimaru, EP Dutton 1983, 1987 I think that speaks to the question of what's real and what's illusion. To re-quote the quote: "Thus, sunyata must not be confused with the negation of the existence of phenomena in any form". and I think it is obvious TD was familiar with the Heart Sutra, which contains, "emptiness is form, form is emptiness"...........and I think the passage is quite beautiful......... The negation of phenomena is a common idea, and in my experience the idea is argued against far more than it is affirmed. For example, to my knowledge, nobody on this forum promotes that idea, but there are many who argue against it as though it IS being promoted. There seems to be a strong inclination to identify illusion as 'not real'. So strong, in fact, that I've given up trying to say it has nothing to do with real or unreal, because peeps are not hearing me. I'm glad you've cleared that up, as this has been about 75% of my disagreement with you for over five years. I'm going to print this out and frame it .
|
|
|
Post by enigma on Dec 15, 2014 20:20:23 GMT -5
The negation of phenomena is a common idea, and in my experience the idea is argued against far more than it is affirmed. For example, to my knowledge, nobody on this forum promotes that idea, but there are many who argue against it as though it IS being promoted. There seems to be a strong inclination to identify illusion as 'not real'. So strong, in fact, that I've given up trying to say it has nothing to do with real or unreal, because peeps are not hearing me. I'm glad you've cleared that up, as this has been about 75% of my disagreement with you for over five years. I'm going to print this out and frame it . I'm going to predict that in spite of framing it, (and hanging it over your desk??) it will be forgotten and we'll be having the discussion again. I've talked about it countless times in the last 5 years.
|
|
|
Post by tzujanli on Dec 16, 2014 6:31:02 GMT -5
I first heard about Taisen Deshimaru some years ago, I found his book The Zen Way to the Martial Arts in a used bookstore. His clarity was simple yet profound. I felt he was deeply enlightened and kept my eye out for other books. This morning I noticed one of his books in a pile and thumbed through it again, and found the following. chapter " Ku .....vacuity...... Ku is empty, but that is not all it means. Sometimes it should be translated "the totality of the cosmos". The ideogram can mean either the void or the sky. It is also the circle which includes everything. The true nature of ku is neither existence nor nonexistence, but both at once, depending upon one's viewpoint. All things are change. Out of ku, emptiness, phenomenon are born; and in the end everything returns to ku, zero. All things start from zero and come back to zero, including the cells of our body. The Hannya Shingyo Sutra says that in the realm of ku, of vacuity, nothing grows and nothing decreases. In ku, everything equals zero. It is mu shin, no mind, no consciousness. During zazen your mind moves from thought to thought, or from non-thought to thought or from non-thought to thought, or from thought to non-thought or from non-thought to non-thought. In any case, the point of intersection is zero. Whenever your state of consciousness moves, changes, you pass through zero. Ku is the Japanese word for the Sanskrit term sunyata, the void, relativity. This is not a negation of existence per se, but an affirmation of the relativity of existence, which is dependent upon causality and the interdependence of all other existences. The factors of causality are changing all the time; there cannot be such a thing as a static existence. So sunyata denies the possibility of any form of static phenomenal existence; all phenomenon are relative and depend upon other phenomenon. Everything, even the law or Dharma, is sunyata, relative, and hence dependent. Thus sunyata must not be confused with the negation of existence of phenomena in any form. Sunyata is the cosmos, existence without substance, the principle of ku. During zazen we experience great tranquility. The brain grows calm. We can meditate profoundly. Many ideas arise. If you want true wisdom you must continue zazen; and after zazen, through zazen, true wisdom can develop; because all phenomenon are created out of ku. But neglecting existence for the sake of ku is also a sickness, like diving into water to get away from the rain or plunging into fire to escape from fire. That is stagnant zazen, and it is the product of a deluded effort to grasp the truth. That kind of zazen becomes decoration, artifice; it is sheer technique, imitation. If you are merely applying a method, you will become weak or stupid. If you don't understand, then practice, do nothing but practice. That way, if you make a mistake, it will be only a phenomenon, shiki. All existences, all illusions, are ultimately ku. And in reality there is neither illusion nor disillusion, neither true nor false, neither darkness nor light. Total light is all darkness and all darkness becomes light. Light is the world of differentiation; in darkness identity reigns. Light becomes dark, dark becomes light. Buddha-nature becomes human existence, and so human existences are Buddha-nature, original nature. At death, body and consciousness disappear while karma and cosmic life continue eternally; to die means to go back to ku, our true essence. According to Buddhist philosophy of ku, all existences in the cosmos, or the reality of all phenomenon, must be denied; and even in ourselves there is no fixed or immovable central substance. Originally, the Buddha way transcends itself, and there is no notion of abundance or lack. Nevertheless, there are appearance and disappearance, illusion and satori, sentient beings and Buddha. But even though that is so, the flowers fade, however much we love and miss them, and weeds grow, however much we neglect and spurn them. When we look at life full on, there are two contradictory things: difference and identity, affirmation and negation. How can we find or create the real value of our life? To apprehend all phenomenon, all existences, as the truth that engenders activity and creates-this is creative logic, beyond the affirmation of phenomenon and the negation of phenomenon. So what can solve the inner problems of the mind is the possibility of following, of applying this logic. It embraces all the contradictions in the world, without drawing a line between object and subject". pages 120,121,122 The Ring of the Way, Testament of a Zen Master by Taisen Deshimaru, EP Dutton 1983, 1987 I think that speaks to the question of what's real and what's illusion. To re-quote the quote: "Thus, sunyata must not be confused with the negation of the existence of phenomena in any form". and I think it is obvious TD was familiar with the Heart Sutra, which contains, "emptiness is form, form is emptiness"...........and I think the passage is quite beautiful......... The negation of phenomena is a common idea, and in my experience the idea is argued against far more than it is affirmed. For example, to my knowledge, nobody on this forum promotes that idea, but there are many who argue against it as though it IS being promoted. There seems to be a strong inclination to identify illusion as 'not real'. So strong, in fact, that I've given up trying to say it has nothing to do with real or unreal, because peeps are not hearing me. If something is not what it appears to be, then what it appears to be is not real.. you really do try to twist every discussion into the illusion that you are 'right'.. peeps are hearing you, and seeing through that illusion..
|
|
|
Post by enigma on Dec 16, 2014 10:03:43 GMT -5
The negation of phenomena is a common idea, and in my experience the idea is argued against far more than it is affirmed. For example, to my knowledge, nobody on this forum promotes that idea, but there are many who argue against it as though it IS being promoted. There seems to be a strong inclination to identify illusion as 'not real'. So strong, in fact, that I've given up trying to say it has nothing to do with real or unreal, because peeps are not hearing me. If something is not what it appears to be, then what it appears to be is not real.. you really do try to twist every discussion into the illusion that you are 'right'.. peeps are hearing you, and seeing through that illusion.. In either case it is an appearance in consciousness, and one appearance is not more or less real than another. Form is empty, but that does not mean meaningless or useless or to be ignored, or whatever one imagines negation to imply, nor is it the opposite of whatever one imagines real to imply.
|
|
|
Post by stardustpilgrim on Dec 16, 2014 10:44:53 GMT -5
The negation of phenomena is a common idea, and in my experience the idea is argued against far more than it is affirmed. For example, to my knowledge, nobody on this forum promotes that idea, but there are many who argue against it as though it IS being promoted. There seems to be a strong inclination to identify illusion as 'not real'. So strong, in fact, that I've given up trying to say it has nothing to do with real or unreal, because peeps are not hearing me. If something is not what it appears to be, then what it appears to be is not real.. you really do try to twist every discussion into the illusion that you are 'right'.. peeps are hearing you, and seeing through that illusion.. No, no, no.......E has walked up to this line several times, and then backed away. I think E has made a concession, although he says he hasn't. I've tried to explore lately the use of the word real. I've try to show the ordinary sense of the word, for example, when we get hit in the face with a 2x4. If it happened in a dream, no bloody nose. If it happens in >real< life, bloody nose. I've talked about history, 13.7 billion years back to the Big Bang, and then other historical people and events. E has always shot these down, all ~this~ is merely a non-dual dream. gopal also made similar points to E. Now at least he admits phenomena, that's something I can work with, how the world seems to operate. From your post: If something is not what it appears to be, the what it appears to be is not real. Previously, E has said (in effect), we can think we see a snake, but it turns out to be a rope, but in seeing the rope, it turns out to be a stick, but in seeing the stick, it turns out to be a shadow. And then we wake up and the shadow turns out to merely be a dream-shadow. At least now E agrees the rope is a phenomenon (for me, relatively real). I am surprised you (Tzu) don't see this is a concession on E's part.......(although he doesn't say it is).
|
|
|
Post by stardustpilgrim on Dec 16, 2014 10:53:57 GMT -5
If something is not what it appears to be, then what it appears to be is not real.. you really do try to twist every discussion into the illusion that you are 'right'.. peeps are hearing you, and seeing through that illusion.. In either case it is an appearance in consciousness, and one appearance is not more or less real than another. Form is empty, but that does not mean meaningless or useless or to be ignored, or whatever one imagines negation to imply, nor is it the opposite of whatever one imagines real to imply. Oops.......E backs away from the line again. The unreal snake is an unreal rope which is an unreal stick which is an unreal shadow. Nobody can function in E's universe. E has to explain why the Heart Sutra (and Taisen Deshimaru) says emptiness is form.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2014 11:01:38 GMT -5
In either case it is an appearance in consciousness, and one appearance is not more or less real than another. Form is empty, but that does not mean meaningless or useless or to be ignored, or whatever one imagines negation to imply, nor is it the opposite of whatever one imagines real to imply. Oops.......E backs away from the line again. The unreal snake is an unreal rope which is an unreal stick which is an unreal shadow. Nobody can function in E's universe. E has to explain why the Heart Sutra (and Taisen Deshimaru) says emptiness is form. Form is emptiness, emptiness is form. To me that could be rewritten with the conceptual stuff emphasized: form is emptiness, "emptiness" is form. It's just an admonition that emptiness is a concept or pointer at best. And don't think it's fundamentally any more formy than anything else. It is empty too, lacking unchanging essence. No need to start a religion on it, for example, with mandatory big empty hats, and drinking from empty cups, and having airy ambient music.... edit: oh right, Zen
|
|
|
Post by laughter on Dec 16, 2014 11:48:04 GMT -5
In either case it is an appearance in consciousness, and one appearance is not more or less real than another. Form is empty, but that does not mean meaningless or useless or to be ignored, or whatever one imagines negation to imply, nor is it the opposite of whatever one imagines real to imply. Oops.......E backs away from the line again. The unreal snake is an unreal rope which is an unreal stick which is an unreal shadow. Nobody can function in E's universe. E has to explain why the Heart Sutra (and Taisen Deshimaru) says emptiness is form. If phenomena are empty then the only thing to be learned from investigating phenomena is that they are empty.
|
|
|
Post by stardustpilgrim on Dec 16, 2014 12:13:07 GMT -5
Oops.......E backs away from the line again. The unreal snake is an unreal rope which is an unreal stick which is an unreal shadow. Nobody can function in E's universe. E has to explain why the Heart Sutra (and Taisen Deshimaru) says emptiness is form. If phenomena are empty then the only thing to be learned from investigating phenomena is that they are empty. Not correct. Emptiness is form, form is emptiness, means that if you stump your toe, it's gonna hurt. It doesn't mean that the non-dual dreamer stumped an imaginary toe that had an imaginary pain.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2014 12:32:02 GMT -5
If phenomena are empty then the only thing to be learned from investigating phenomena is that they are empty. Not correct. Emptiness is form, form is emptiness, means that if you stump your toe, it's gonna hurt. It doesn't mean that the non-dual dreamer stumped an imaginary toe that had an imaginary pain. Seung Sahn agrees and comments: "The Heart Sutra teaches that “form is emptiness, and emptiness is form.” Many people don’t know what this means — even some long-time students of meditation. But there is a very easy way to see this in our everyday lives. For example, here is a wooden chair. It is brown. It is solid and heavy. It looks like it could last a long time. You sit in the chair, and it holds up your weight. You can place things on it. But then you light the chair on fire and leave. When you come back later, the chair is no longer there! This thing that seemed so solid and strong and real is now just a pile of cinder and ash which the wind blows around. This example shows how the chair is empty: it is not a permanent, abiding thing. It is always changing. It has no independent existence. Over a long or short time, the chair will eventually change and become something other than what it appears. So this brown chair is complete emptiness. But though it always has the quality of emptiness, this emptiness is form: you can sit in the chair, and it will still hold you up. “Form is emptiness, and emptiness is form.”" Further, Sahn: " All dharmas are marked with emptiness..." ...In the true experience of emptiness, there are no words and no speech, so there is also no dharma. When you open your mouth to say “All dharmas are marked with emptiness,” that is already no longer emptiness. So be careful. The point of this is that if you just understand words and speech, and keep only an intellectual understanding, this sutra and any other sutra cannot help your life. Some actual attainment of what these words point to is necessary." 'some actual attainment' is something I've heard here too. "These words in the Heart Sutra are only wonderful speech and words. But however interesting or wonderful the speech and words are, if you just understand them conceptually, they cannot help your life. Again, you must truly attain something. You must attain that there is actually nothing to attain. Everything is already truth, exactly as it is. You are already complete. But be careful! Merely understanding these beautiful words is one thing, and attaining them is quite another." ... " Gate, gate, paragate, parasamgate, bodhi svaha!"So there is yet one more step. If you attain emptiness, and then attain truth, how does this world’s truth function to help other beings? All Buddhas attain anuttara samyak sambodhi, or unexcelled perfect enlightenment. This means that they attain truth. They can see that the sky is blue, and the tree is green. At the end of the sutra we are told that there is a great transcendent mantra, a great bright mantra, an utmost mantra, a supreme mantra: Gate, gate, paragate, parasamgate, bodhi svaha. It can be translated as “Gone, gone, gone to the other shore beyond.” So this mantra at the end of the Heart Sutra means only action. Up until this point, everything is just speech and words about attaining emptiness and truth. It is all a lot of very interesting description. But this mantra means you must just do it. Some kind of action is necessary if you want to help this world. For the bodhisattva, there is only bodhisattva action. When you attain unexcelled perfect enlightenment, you must attain the function of this enlightenment in the world. That is what we call moment world. From moment to moment, perceive suffering in this world and only help all beings. That is a very important point. "Attaining truth alone is not enough. If someone is thirsty, give them something to drink. If someone is hungry, give them food. When a suffering person appears before you, you only help, with no thinking or checking. The early part of this sutra has no “do-it,” just good speech about attainment and no-attainment. But if you attain something, you must do it. That is the meaning behind Gate, gate, paragate, parasamgate, bodhi svaha. Step by step, we attain how to function compassionately for others, to use truth for others, spontaneously, from moment to moment. This is the whole point of the Heart Sutra."
|
|
|
Post by laughter on Dec 16, 2014 14:13:50 GMT -5
If phenomena are empty then the only thing to be learned from investigating phenomena is that they are empty. Not correct. Emptiness is form, form is emptiness, means that if you stump your toe, it's gonna hurt. It doesn't mean that the non-dual dreamer stumped an imaginary toe that had an imaginary pain. Emptiness doesn't mean that it won't hurt when you stub your toe.
|
|