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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2014 12:59:58 GMT -5
In the Adya quote above, it sounds like that was precisely what happened to him; He did very much get a glimpse of what was at stake (otherwise why would he say 'this immense desire to realize reality or truth woke up inside?).....and did not 'stop the search immediately' as you say happens when the seeker sees what's really being sought. Adya also talks about something beyond the seeker driving the search...and folks seeing/sensing the impending annihilation, and thus,panicking and trying to turn of the search, and simply not being able to...almost as if the searching mechanism has an energy all it's own, pulling and beckoning forward. This has also been my experience, that once that seeking mechanism has been 'turned on'...there really is not turning off, regardless of what gets glimpsed, and regardless of how scary that might appear to ego. There is something beyond ego, driving the movement towards realizing wholeness. Agreed, but this is true of everything. Every decision is being made by the Whole rather than the imaginary person, and some people are able to intuit that. I've done things in the past that made no rational sense, but I knew I had to do it, and that was even before I saw through the illusion of selfhood. Same same with the spiritual search. A seeker goes in search of the truth because that's what the cosmos undertakes using a particular body/mind. Those who become totally consumed by the search get to a point where the truth is all that matters, and many are quite willing to die for it even though they don't specifically know what that might mean. If a person understood what's going on, there wouldn't be any need to search for understanding. In the same way, if the keys to my car are in my hand, I don't have to go searching for them. Had a good one tonight on the way home. I came round a familiar local corner, a left turn, which on our roads is just one turn of the wheel and a change down a gear. I saw the car parked to my left and stopped the van without thinking. I paused and saw a little car come round it. I really hadn't seen it as I turned into the road and then obviously realised why I had stopped the van.
I tried to own the action by saying yeah I knew that car was coming. Though then I was honest with myself.. and all I was was curious about the stopping of the van without any visible information that this was the best/right thing to do.
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Post by Transcix on Dec 4, 2014 20:20:51 GMT -5
The seeker, by definition, has not the slightest clue what he's actually after. If he would, he would stop the search immediately. Not because that's what all the sages say or the smart thing to do, but because what he's actually after is his own annihilation and as long as he can avoid that, he'll avoid exactly that from happening. I don't understand your reasoning as to how the seeker hasn't the slightest clue what he's actually after. Surely suffering is by definition the antithesis of what's desirable, and surely what's desirable significantly impacts a person's choices, leading for example to desire for freedom from suffering. If you're suggesting the hedonistic imperative is one of the primary things that would cause a person to avoid the annihilation of their ego, I would suggest just the opposite. An idiot remains in hell because they can't see an alternative, but to the extent an alternative comes into view then it becomes pursued. There's a difference between inability to discern anything worth pursuing, uncertainty as to whether or not a thing is worth pursuing, and ignorance as to how something worth pursuing can be successfully pursued and attained.
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Post by enigma on Dec 4, 2014 23:11:21 GMT -5
If there is a hypothesis that the spiritual search is the last level of delusion then the accuracy of the hypothesis cannot be determined, because if the question had to be asked then it's surely the wrong question to ask at the present juncture.. Signs indicating spiritual attainment can point the way towards future additional attainment to some extent.. but mostly the recognition of such signs is far less the mechanism by which spiritual attainment proceeds, far more merely a natural bi-product.. After all it's not as if a spiritual practitioner has no idea of their bearings, no idea of how much or how little they've attained, and merely wait for some sign to reveal their absolute location and trajectory.. rather any spiritual practitioner at least somewhat advanced should have a fairly accurate idea of where they stand, and any evidence they encounter pertaining to where they stand is not accepted in blind faith on a blank canvas but through the prism of the current paradigm.. The seeker, by definition, has not the slightest clue what he's actually after. If he would, he would stop the search immediately. Not because that's what all the sages say or the smart thing to do, but because what he's actually after is his own annihilation and as long as he can avoid that, he'll avoid exactly that from happening. Right, the seeker doesn't know what he's looking for, but should he accidentally get too close, he'll need an escape plan. The search must go on!
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Post by enigma on Dec 4, 2014 23:16:23 GMT -5
The seeker, by definition, has not the slightest clue what he's actually after. If he would, he would stop the search immediately. Not because that's what all the sages say or the smart thing to do, but because what he's actually after is his own annihilation and as long as he can avoid that, he'll avoid exactly that from happening. In the Adya quote above, it sounds like that was precisely what happened to him; He did very much get a glimpse of what was at stake (otherwise why would he say 'this immense desire to realize reality or truth woke up inside?).....and did not 'stop the search immediately' as you say happens when the seeker sees what's really being sought. Adya also talks about something beyond the seeker driving the search...and folks seeing/sensing the impending annihilation, and thus,panicking and trying to turn of the search, and simply not being able to...almost as if the searching mechanism has an energy all it's own, pulling and beckoning forward. This has also been my experience, that once that seeking mechanism has been 'turned on'...there really is not turning off, regardless of what gets glimpsed, and regardless of how scary that might appear to ego. There is something beyond ego, driving the movement towards realizing wholeness. He still didn't know what he was seeking. He said "I certainly had no idea at the time why it was so important."
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Post by enigma on Dec 4, 2014 23:25:06 GMT -5
The seeker, by definition, has not the slightest clue what he's actually after. If he would, he would stop the search immediately. Not because that's what all the sages say or the smart thing to do, but because what he's actually after is his own annihilation and as long as he can avoid that, he'll avoid exactly that from happening. I don't understand your reasoning as to how the seeker hasn't the slightest clue what he's actually after. Surely suffering is by definition the antithesis of what's desirable, and surely what's desirable significantly impacts a person's choices, leading for example to desire for freedom from suffering. If you're suggesting the hedonistic imperative is one of the primary things that would cause a person to avoid the annihilation of their ego, I would suggest just the opposite. An idiot remains in hell because they can't see an alternative, but to the extent an alternative comes into view then it becomes pursued. There's a difference between inability to discern anything worth pursuing, uncertainty as to whether or not a thing is worth pursuing, and ignorance as to how something worth pursuing can be successfully pursued and attained. As Reefs said, what he's actually after is his own annihilation.
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Post by Reefs on Dec 5, 2014 7:04:08 GMT -5
The seeker, by definition, has not the slightest clue what he's actually after. If he would, he would stop the search immediately. Not because that's what all the sages say or the smart thing to do, but because what he's actually after is his own annihilation and as long as he can avoid that, he'll avoid exactly that from happening. I don't understand your reasoning as to how the seeker hasn't the slightest clue what he's actually after. Surely suffering is by definition the antithesis of what's desirable, and surely what's desirable significantly impacts a person's choices, leading for example to desire for freedom from suffering. If you're suggesting the hedonistic imperative is one of the primary things that would cause a person to avoid the annihilation of their ego, I would suggest just the opposite. An idiot remains in hell because they can't see an alternative, but to the extent an alternative comes into view then it becomes pursued. There's a difference between inability to discern anything worth pursuing, uncertainty as to whether or not a thing is worth pursuing, and ignorance as to how something worth pursuing can be successfully pursued and attained. The seeker is a figment of the mind. The entire search is a mind game. Truth is beyond mind/intellect. Therefore it's forever out reach for the seeker. That's why there are no paths and nothing to do and truth is always just a breath away no matter if you are a bloody beginner in the spiritual circus or a seasoned seeker with an impressive spiritual resume.
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Post by tenka on Dec 5, 2014 7:18:12 GMT -5
could the spiritual search be the last level of delusion If something is not consciously known or made aware of prior to (the) search to then be known and made of aware of after or during the event then perhaps it is delusional to entertain the notion that searching is delusional .
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Post by steven on Dec 5, 2014 16:03:43 GMT -5
LoL Well....a little wine never hurt ? You're in the vino tinto club? Haha....I've been known to get caught malingering in the Costco wine section from time to time ;-)
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Post by figgles on Dec 5, 2014 16:07:25 GMT -5
In the Adya quote above, it sounds like that was precisely what happened to him; He did very much get a glimpse of what was at stake (otherwise why would he say 'this immense desire to realize reality or truth woke up inside?).....and did not 'stop the search immediately' as you say happens when the seeker sees what's really being sought. Adya also talks about something beyond the seeker driving the search...and folks seeing/sensing the impending annihilation, and thus,panicking and trying to turn of the search, and simply not being able to...almost as if the searching mechanism has an energy all it's own, pulling and beckoning forward. This has also been my experience, that once that seeking mechanism has been 'turned on'...there really is not turning off, regardless of what gets glimpsed, and regardless of how scary that might appear to ego. There is something beyond ego, driving the movement towards realizing wholeness. He still didn't know what he was seeking. He said "I certainly had no idea at the time why it was so important." Sounds like he was in the ball-park; Adya: " In many ways, especially at 20 years old it was shocking. It’s just about the time when we’re putting a lot of energy into creating our new identity, our new roles in life and new ways to move in the world; to have this immense desire to see through it all, it’s very disconcerting I suppose, if it happens at a young age like that." Read more: spiritualteachers.proboards.com/thread/3900/delusion?page=2#ixzz3L3lQWsITHe seemed clear enough about the requirement of 'seeing through identity' at a time where, as he says, most folks are building one up.
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Post by Transcix on Dec 6, 2014 13:16:39 GMT -5
I don't understand your reasoning as to how the seeker hasn't the slightest clue what he's actually after. Surely suffering is by definition the antithesis of what's desirable, and surely what's desirable significantly impacts a person's choices, leading for example to desire for freedom from suffering. If you're suggesting the hedonistic imperative is one of the primary things that would cause a person to avoid the annihilation of their ego, I would suggest just the opposite. An idiot remains in hell because they can't see an alternative, but to the extent an alternative comes into view then it becomes pursued. There's a difference between inability to discern anything worth pursuing, uncertainty as to whether or not a thing is worth pursuing, and ignorance as to how something worth pursuing can be successfully pursued and attained. As Reefs said, what he's actually after is his own annihilation. First of all, if you have a hypothesis that the seeker never has a clue what he's actually after, and you also have a hypothesis that the seeker is actually after his own annihilation, these two hypotheses could both be valid, but obviously just saying these words does nothing in itself to prove their validity, therefore since we're on a discussion forum involving the written word I was saying that I didn't comprehend the reasoning Reefs had previously taken the time to elaborated about it. Secondl of all, I've been deliberately after my own annihilation for many years, and I've known that I was. The seeker is a figment of the mind. The entire search is a mind game. Truth is beyond mind/intellect. In this case if I could presume to offer you a piece of advice, I would recommend a lobotomy. ( disclaimer: Transcix cannot be held liable for any brain damage that may occur.) The difference between saying that the mind cannot fully grasp everything and that the mind cannot grasp anything at all.. well yikes..
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Post by zendancer on Dec 6, 2014 14:06:09 GMT -5
FWIW, the seeker often knows exactly what he's searching for and why, but that doesn't mean that she understands the situation completely. Many people have experiences in which selfhood totally disappears, and the resulting bliss is indescribable. When the sense of selfhood returns, as it almost inevitably does, the body/mind that has had such an experience naturally seeks to have it return and assumes, incorrectly, that the experience happened to a person.
Tolle is a good example of this. After his big kensho experience, he lived in a state of bliss for quite some time without understanding what had happened to him. Later, he connected some dots when he heard a ZM explain some things, and he then realized that 80% of his thinking had disappeared as a result of his experience. Later still, his mind became informed concerning many other things that had not been immediately clear. Many other people besides Tolle have had similar experiences, but he is better known than most.
More typical is the body/mind that temporarily loses the sense of selfhood, experiences bliss, re-acquires selfhood, and then goes searching for a way to lose it permanently. I probably know between a dozen and two dozen people to whom that has happened.
A great deal of the typical non-dual "path" involves the informing of mind about what's going on, so although mind, alone, can never directly apprehend the truth, it can become adequately informed via experiences and realizations so that it can finally come to rest.
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Post by silver on Dec 6, 2014 14:20:31 GMT -5
FWIW, the seeker often knows exactly what he's searching for and why, but that doesn't mean that she understands the situation completely. Many people have experiences in which selfhood totally disappears, and the resulting bliss is indescribable. When the sense of selfhood returns, as it almost inevitably does, the body/mind that has had such an experience naturally seeks to have it return and assumes, incorrectly, that the experience happened to a person. Tolle is a good example of this. After his big kensho experience, he lived in a state of bliss for quite some time without understanding what had happened to him. Later, he connected some dots when he heard a ZM explain some things, and he then realized that 80% of his thinking had disappeared as a result of his experience. Later still, his mind became informed concerning many other things that had not been immediately clear. Many other people besides Tolle have had similar experiences, but he is better known than most. More typical is the body/mind that temporarily loses the sense of selfhood, experiences bliss, re-acquires selfhood, and then goes searching for a way to lose it permanently. I probably know between a dozen and two dozen people to whom that has happened. A great deal of the typical non-dual "path" involves the informing of mind about what's going on, so although mind, alone, can never directly apprehend the truth, it can become adequately informed via experiences and realizations so that it can finally come to rest. Do you know, or have you ever heard - or even imagined - that such folks feel it so strongly that they actually commit suicide - or yearn to do so?
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Post by zendancer on Dec 6, 2014 14:31:03 GMT -5
FWIW, the seeker often knows exactly what he's searching for and why, but that doesn't mean that she understands the situation completely. Many people have experiences in which selfhood totally disappears, and the resulting bliss is indescribable. When the sense of selfhood returns, as it almost inevitably does, the body/mind that has had such an experience naturally seeks to have it return and assumes, incorrectly, that the experience happened to a person. Tolle is a good example of this. After his big kensho experience, he lived in a state of bliss for quite some time without understanding what had happened to him. Later, he connected some dots when he heard a ZM explain some things, and he then realized that 80% of his thinking had disappeared as a result of his experience. Later still, his mind became informed concerning many other things that had not been immediately clear. Many other people besides Tolle have had similar experiences, but he is better known than most. More typical is the body/mind that temporarily loses the sense of selfhood, experiences bliss, re-acquires selfhood, and then goes searching for a way to lose it permanently. I probably know between a dozen and two dozen people to whom that has happened. A great deal of the typical non-dual "path" involves the informing of mind about what's going on, so although mind, alone, can never directly apprehend the truth, it can become adequately informed via experiences and realizations so that it can finally come to rest. Do you know, or have you ever heard - or even imagined - that such folks feel it so strongly that they actually commit suicide - or yearn to do so? No. During satsang people will occasionally say to a non-dual teacher, "I'm ready to die," but they either mean (1) do whatever you need to do to help me get rid of my sense of separateness, or (2) I want the truth so badly that I'm ready to die for enlightenment. I've never heard anyone say this that meant it literally; they are always using the term "die" in a psychological sense.
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Post by silver on Dec 6, 2014 14:46:56 GMT -5
Do you know, or have you ever heard - or even imagined - that such folks feel it so strongly that they actually commit suicide - or yearn to do so? No. During satsang people will occasionally say to a non-dual teacher, "I'm ready to die," but they either mean (1) do whatever you need to do to help me get rid of my sense of separateness, or (2) I want the truth so badly that I'm ready to die for enlightenment. I've never heard anyone say this that meant it literally; they are always using the term "die" in a psychological sense. That's good then, relatively speaking. I guess I'm such a literal type, this talk is often alarming to me 'cuz I don't quite know what's going on -- plus, it's pretty much impossible for me to even imagine dying in a psychological sense.
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Post by zendancer on Dec 6, 2014 15:09:12 GMT -5
No. During satsang people will occasionally say to a non-dual teacher, "I'm ready to die," but they either mean (1) do whatever you need to do to help me get rid of my sense of separateness, or (2) I want the truth so badly that I'm ready to die for enlightenment. I've never heard anyone say this that meant it literally; they are always using the term "die" in a psychological sense. That's good then, relatively speaking. I guess I'm such a literal type, this talk is often alarming to me 'cuz I don't quite know what's going on -- plus, it's pretty much impossible for me to even imagine dying in a psychological sense. Silver: you psychologically die every day, but you don't realize it. Anytime you get involved in an activity and are not reflecting about a "me" the "me" isn't there. There is a body/mind involved in some activity, but there is no sense of a separate person involved in the activity. During the activity you and the cosmos are psychologically one. It is only when you reflect ABOUT yourself, as a person separate from the action, that the idea of a "me" arises. If you turned attention away from thoughts ABOUT yourself to the activity of life and what can be seen or heard, life would continue without a "you." If you did this for an extended period of time, at a certain point you might realize that your past sense of self identity was a thought-created illusion. This is what non-duality teachers are pointing towards.
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