|
Post by tzujanli on Nov 3, 2014 20:58:45 GMT -5
Yeah -- the idea of a free maxy will never waft on by to a free maxy. You're grasping at this idea of gaining freedom for yourself. It's definitely all ruthlessly truthy and all, but the fact is that this idea of freedom is a carrot, that you're never not free, and it's only this you that wants to be free that obscures the non-carrot freedom. Look at how it was phrased: Kinda' prounony, don't ya' think?? ... hey! I did preface that this wasn't something new to ya'. Serious serious though, witnessing involves the witness and what is witnessed. Doesn't it make sense that this can result in some major benefits to the person doing the witnessing that they wouldn't want to let go of? It strikes me from our correspondence over time that you've gained some benefits in the past from detaching from lifes drama's ... do I have that right? If I do, then I'd suggest something based on this desire for freedom that you've stated. Interesting idea ... maybe I've had some benefit from inquiry that I'm now blowing up into a permanent state or to be gained with some monumental realization or something. Okay I'll let that waft by too. The pronoun sentence was immediately regretted by the way. Ipad on the run with kids breathing down my neck. Just wanted to up the anti in an honest way for mr. Tzu. Just made him go all teacher on me, doing the bearded thing with stories of his Master. Soon he'll be calling me grasshopper.But it is honest. I don't pretend to have any fancy realizations or awakening. I don't pretend to know what dropping means in this context. I do get lost in thought. I feel like a normal person that way. But as Q hypothesized, I've been infected as if with a virus, with the mind-worm that perhaps there is a better way to be. That sentence was an expression of that mind-worm. This is where your sincerity suffers, are you certain you really want to understand the message? Forget about understanding 'Tzu', it's the message that is meaningful, for you..
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 4, 2014 9:04:56 GMT -5
How do you know the people in your account didn't want the lesson to be different from what it was? Did you do a survey? How would you possibly know that "they weren't experiencing what was happening and trying to make it appear different from the actual happening?" Did you make it up? I was present.. we, the students, talked among ourselves.. and, no.. So by talking to them you feel confident knowing that there were no students there who wanted the lesson to be different than the way it was? And you are confident that there was no student 'experiencing what was happening' and yet 'trying to make it appear different from the actual happening'? If so, you definitely pass the confidence test.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 4, 2014 9:42:33 GMT -5
Interesting idea ... maybe I've had some benefit from inquiry that I'm now blowing up into a permanent state or to be gained with some monumental realization or something. Okay I'll let that waft by too. All kidding aside, that, would be a trap. One you can see writ large in the MT's. .. the ideas to let go of are the permanent state or the future woo-woo. Don't let the point that this desire is present waft by. Don't ignore that. A desire seen for what it is and not acted upon eventually dissipates. That's the wafting I'm talking about. Comes and goes. The pronoun sentence was immediately regretted by the way. Ipad on the run with kids breathing down my neck. Just wanted to up the anti in an honest way for mr. Tzu. Just made him go all teacher on me, doing the bearded thing with stories of his Master. Soon he'll be calling me grasshopper. But it is honest. I don't pretend to have any fancy realizations or awakening. I don't pretend to know what dropping means in this context. I do get lost in thought. I feel like a normal person that way. But as Q hypothesized, I've been infected as if with a virus, with the mind-worm that perhaps there is a better way to be. That sentence was an expression of that mind-worm. The stated desire isn't something that you can have. Weren't you just advising not denying the presence of the desire? Surprisingly enough, in terms of the dialog on the forum, this is a point of controversy. If you pay close attention to the MT's, what you'll find is that whenever this proposition is disagreed with, it's not done directly, or if it is done directly the disagreement is sometimes quite quickly, but eventually always, equivocated and redirected by morphing the point under discussion or resorting to a construct similar to the positionless position. That resistance is very telling. Practices, study, contemplation of interesting ideas ... all these lead to a different experience and that's fine. But dude, really ... "If you direct yourself toward it, you go away from it". It's trite. It's cliche. It's ... what is happening. What exactly would I be directing towards exactly what??
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 4, 2014 11:17:11 GMT -5
Interesting idea ... maybe I've had some benefit from inquiry that I'm now blowing up into a permanent state or to be gained with some monumental realization or something. Okay I'll let that waft by too. The pronoun sentence was immediately regretted by the way. Ipad on the run with kids breathing down my neck. Just wanted to up the anti in an honest way for mr. Tzu. Just made him go all teacher on me, doing the bearded thing with stories of his Master. Soon he'll be calling me grasshopper.But it is honest. I don't pretend to have any fancy realizations or awakening. I don't pretend to know what dropping means in this context. I do get lost in thought. I feel like a normal person that way. But as Q hypothesized, I've been infected as if with a virus, with the mind-worm that perhaps there is a better way to be. That sentence was an expression of that mind-worm. This is where your sincerity suffers, are you certain you really want to understand the message? Forget about understanding 'Tzu', it's the message that is meaningful, for you.. The message that I'm hearing right now is that you aren't interested in whether I understand what you say or not. Is that correct?
|
|
|
Post by laughter on Nov 4, 2014 11:55:28 GMT -5
All kidding aside, that, would be a trap. One you can see writ large in the MT's. .. the ideas to let go of are the permanent state or the future woo-woo. Don't let the point that this desire is present waft by. Don't ignore that. A desire seen for what it is and not acted upon eventually dissipates. That's the wafting I'm talking about. Comes and goes. This is where things get deep and tricky now, don't they? The question becomes, will it recur? By "comes and goes", you seem to be suggesting that it does, is that right? The stated desire isn't something that you can have. Weren't you just advising not denying the presence of the desire? Yes. If you see an inconsistency there please explain it. The desire is there, but it's not anything anyone can ever have. Denying the presence of the desire isn't any good because it will just recur. Ignoring the fact that the desire is impossible amounts to the same situation. Surprisingly enough, in terms of the dialog on the forum, this is a point of controversy. If you pay close attention to the MT's, what you'll find is that whenever this proposition is disagreed with, it's not done directly, or if it is done directly the disagreement is sometimes quite quickly, but eventually always, equivocated and redirected by morphing the point under discussion or resorting to a construct similar to the positionless position. That resistance is very telling. Practices, study, contemplation of interesting ideas ... all these lead to a different experience and that's fine. But dude, really ... "If you direct yourself toward it, you go away from it". It's trite. It's cliche. It's ... what is happening. What exactly would I be directing towards exactly what?? Directing attention toward seeing how your life is being clouded by attachments to ideas that you want to be free of.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 4, 2014 12:40:39 GMT -5
A desire seen for what it is and not acted upon eventually dissipates. That's the wafting I'm talking about. Comes and goes. This is where things get deep and tricky now, don't they? The question becomes, will it recur? By "comes and goes", you seem to be suggesting that it does, is that right? Right. Weren't you just advising not denying the presence of the desire? Yes. If you see an inconsistency there please explain it. The desire is there, but it's not anything anyone can ever have. Denying the presence of the desire isn't any good because it will just recur. Ignoring the fact that the desire is impossible amounts to the same situation. Right. Thought you were suggesting that the desire wasn't there, like impossible. Like how the 'willingness' might appear to be there but is not. Same with sincerity. [ What exactly would I be directing towards exactly what?? Directing attention toward seeing how your life is being clouded by attachments to ideas that you want to be free of. Ordinary Mind includes all of the myriad attachments, desires, imaginings, delusions. It is being free from Ordinary Mind that is the prize -- maybe No Mind (or Still Mind, as the case may be). ATA minus thinking. Ordinary Mind is swamped in thought. The market is full of oxherders lost in Ordinary Mind. It is returning to the market with No Mind that is the point.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 4, 2014 17:52:29 GMT -5
Yeah -- the idea of a free maxy will never waft on by to a free maxy. You're grasping at this idea of gaining freedom for yourself. It's definitely all ruthlessly truthy and all, but the fact is that this idea of freedom is a carrot, that you're never not free, and it's only this you that wants to be free that obscures the non-carrot freedom. Look at how it was phrased: Kinda' prounony, don't ya' think?? ... hey! I did preface that this wasn't something new to ya'. Serious serious though, witnessing involves the witness and what is witnessed. Doesn't it make sense that this can result in some major benefits to the person doing the witnessing that they wouldn't want to let go of? It strikes me from our correspondence over time that you've gained some benefits in the past from detaching from lifes drama's ... do I have that right? If I do, then I'd suggest something based on this desire for freedom that you've stated. Interesting idea ... maybe I've had some benefit from inquiry that I'm now blowing up into a permanent state or to be gained with some monumental realization or something. Okay I'll let that waft by too. The pronoun sentence was immediately regretted by the way. Ipad on the run with kids breathing down my neck. Just wanted to up the anti in an honest way for mr. Tzu. Just made him go all teacher on me, doing the bearded thing with stories of his Master. Soon he'll be calling me grasshopper. But it is honest. I don't pretend to have any fancy realizations or awakening. I don't pretend to know what dropping means in this context. I do get lost in thought. I feel like a normal person that way. But as Q hypothesized, I've been infected as if with a virus, with the mind-worm that perhaps there is a better way to be. That sentence was an expression of that mind-worm. If there is then where is it going to come from?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 4, 2014 18:06:30 GMT -5
Yeah -- the idea of a free maxy will never waft on by to a free maxy. You're grasping at this idea of gaining freedom for yourself. It's definitely all ruthlessly truthy and all, but the fact is that this idea of freedom is a carrot, that you're never not free, and it's only this you that wants to be free that obscures the non-carrot freedom. Look at how it was phrased: Kinda' prounony, don't ya' think?? ... hey! I did preface that this wasn't something new to ya'. Serious serious though, witnessing involves the witness and what is witnessed. Doesn't it make sense that this can result in some major benefits to the person doing the witnessing that they wouldn't want to let go of? It strikes me from our correspondence over time that you've gained some benefits in the past from detaching from lifes drama's ... do I have that right? If I do, then I'd suggest something based on this desire for freedom that you've stated. Interesting idea ... maybe I've had some benefit from inquiry that I'm now blowing up into a permanent state or to be gained with some monumental realization or something. Okay I'll let that waft by too. The pronoun sentence was immediately regretted by the way. Ipad on the run with kids breathing down my neck. Just wanted to up the anti in an honest way for mr. Tzu. Just made him go all teacher on me, doing the bearded thing with stories of his Master. Soon he'll be calling me grasshopper. But it is honest. I don't pretend to have any fancy realizations or awakening. I don't pretend to know what dropping means in this context. I do get lost in thought. I feel like a normal person that way. But as Q hypothesized, I've been infected as if with a virus, with the mind-worm that perhaps there is a better way to be. That sentence was an expression of that mind-worm. You spend time with children, and this is the normality that you are teaching them..?
|
|
|
Post by laughter on Nov 4, 2014 18:33:27 GMT -5
This is where things get deep and tricky now, don't they? The question becomes, will it recur? By "comes and goes", you seem to be suggesting that it does, is that right? Right. There's a hamster's eye view of this situation of the recurringly witnessed desire that sums up the issue quite nicely, but that's not really necessary, as long as you understand this point (and I'm pretty sure you do): as long as the desire to be free recurs, just ignoring it won't make it go away. But ... If you can distinguish between a possible future permanent state and what this desire is for, and untangle the two, then the interest in the possible future permanent state won't recur. If you can distinguish between potential future woo-woo and what this desire is for, and untangle the two, then the interest in potential future woo-woo won't recur. Yes. If you see an inconsistency there please explain it. The desire is there, but it's not anything anyone can ever have. Denying the presence of the desire isn't any good because it will just recur. Ignoring the fact that the desire is impossible amounts to the same situation. Right. Thought you were suggesting that the desire wasn't there, like impossible. Like how the 'willingness' might appear to be there but is not. Same with sincerity. [Directing attention toward seeing how your life is being clouded by attachments to ideas that you want to be free of. Ordinary Mind includes all of the myriad attachments, desires, imaginings, delusions. It is being free from Ordinary Mind that is the prize -- maybe No Mind (or Still Mind, as the case may be). ATA minus thinking. Ordinary Mind is swamped in thought. The market is full of oxherders lost in Ordinary Mind. It is returning to the market with No Mind that is the point. Nice metaphor but in terms of it, since most of us here aren't formal practitioners of Zen, my opinion is that most of us are often all over the map of the first 7 of the first 9 of the 10 paintings at any given time, and any word is off of the 8th. I'd further opine that anyone who reads the forum regularly has had some sort of glimpse of #7, or else there's not gonna' be much of a basis for interest in the content. Any idea of anything past #6, ain't anything past #6. There are lots of ideas and art aficionados though, that obviously point backward most, if not all of the time.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2014 11:12:18 GMT -5
Interesting idea ... maybe I've had some benefit from inquiry that I'm now blowing up into a permanent state or to be gained with some monumental realization or something. Okay I'll let that waft by too. The pronoun sentence was immediately regretted by the way. Ipad on the run with kids breathing down my neck. Just wanted to up the anti in an honest way for mr. Tzu. Just made him go all teacher on me, doing the bearded thing with stories of his Master. Soon he'll be calling me grasshopper. But it is honest. I don't pretend to have any fancy realizations or awakening. I don't pretend to know what dropping means in this context. I do get lost in thought. I feel like a normal person that way. But as Q hypothesized, I've been infected as if with a virus, with the mind-worm that perhaps there is a better way to be. That sentence was an expression of that mind-worm. You spend time with children, and this is the normality that you are teaching them..? Yes I do think being lost in thought is normal. And yes, that is one of the many inadvertent imperfect conditionings I'm bestowing on my unfortunate children.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2014 11:13:01 GMT -5
Interesting idea ... maybe I've had some benefit from inquiry that I'm now blowing up into a permanent state or to be gained with some monumental realization or something. Okay I'll let that waft by too. The pronoun sentence was immediately regretted by the way. Ipad on the run with kids breathing down my neck. Just wanted to up the anti in an honest way for mr. Tzu. Just made him go all teacher on me, doing the bearded thing with stories of his Master. Soon he'll be calling me grasshopper. But it is honest. I don't pretend to have any fancy realizations or awakening. I don't pretend to know what dropping means in this context. I do get lost in thought. I feel like a normal person that way. But as Q hypothesized, I've been infected as if with a virus, with the mind-worm that perhaps there is a better way to be. That sentence was an expression of that mind-worm. If there is then where is it going to come from? I blame Creation!
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2014 11:19:33 GMT -5
There's a hamster's eye view of this situation of the recurringly witnessed desire that sums up the issue quite nicely, but that's not really necessary, as long as you understand this point (and I'm pretty sure you do): as long as the desire to be free recurs, just ignoring it won't make it go away. But ... If you can distinguish between a possible future permanent state and what this desire is for, and untangle the two, then the interest in the possible future permanent state won't recur. If you can distinguish between potential future woo-woo and what this desire is for, and untangle the two, then the interest in potential future woo-woo won't recur. Disentangle the desire from the narrative? The beauty of the who/what am I? trick is when it is employed in the midst of the entanglement. It cleaves the two easily as the narrative is seen for what it is -- just rapidly dissipating thoughts. And the spaciousness that results allows the feeling to burn off like a fog in the morning.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2014 17:23:35 GMT -5
You spend time with children, and this is the normality that you are teaching them..? Yes I do think being lost in thought is normal. And yes, that is one of the many inadvertent imperfect conditionings I'm bestowing on my unfortunate children.
|
|
|
Post by vacant on Nov 5, 2014 18:14:38 GMT -5
The ones who think they know The ones who say they know The ones who don't know and want to know The ones who only know they will never know Those who guess they are not one to know The no-ones
|
|
|
Post by laughter on Nov 5, 2014 18:51:17 GMT -5
There's a hamster's eye view of this situation of the recurringly witnessed desire that sums up the issue quite nicely, but that's not really necessary, as long as you understand this point (and I'm pretty sure you do): as long as the desire to be free recurs, just ignoring it won't make it go away. But ... If you can distinguish between a possible future permanent state and what this desire is for, and untangle the two, then the interest in the possible future permanent state won't recur. If you can distinguish between potential future woo-woo and what this desire is for, and untangle the two, then the interest in potential future woo-woo won't recur. Disentangle the desire from the narrative? The beauty of the who/what am I? trick is when it is employed in the midst of the entanglement. It cleaves the two easily as the narrative is seen for what it is -- just rapidly dissipating thoughts. And the spaciousness that results allows the feeling to burn off like a fog in the morning. But if the thoughts recur, then the relief is temporary. Have you ever witnessed the certain death of an interest, similar to the "I might eventually have a woo-woo experience that reveals Oneness"?
|
|