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Post by vacant on Oct 22, 2014 20:02:03 GMT -5
In the beginning one needs to be convinced about how reality is: one needs to have confidence in the view. Ultimately, however, any form of conviction is still a subtle obscuration, still a hindrance. At the final stage of nonmeditation, all types of habitual tendencies and convictions need to be dissolved, left behind. There is nothing more to cultivate, nothing more to reach. One has arrived at the end of the path. All that needs to be purified has been purified. Karma, disturbing emotions and the habitual tendencies have all been cleared up, so that nothing is left. The path is necessary as long as we have not arrived. The moment we arrive, however, the need for the road to get there has fallen away. As long as we are not at our destination, then it is necessary to have the concept of the path in order to get there. But once the destination has been reached, once whatever needs to be cultivated has been cultivated, and whatever needs to be abandoned has been left behind, the whole need for path is over. That is what is meant by nonmeditation, literally, non-cultivation. This is the dharmakaya throne of nonmeditation. In Dzogchen, the exhaustion of all concepts and phenomenon is the ultimate level of experience. This is the state of complete enlightenment. Both these levels of experience are equal to that of all buddhas. page 138 Fresh Present Wakefulness by Chokyi Nyima Rinpoche For 40 years the student walks the pathless path and still has not arrived at the place from which he started. Seems like we should at least be able to agree that the path can often become an encumbrance. I don't have an issue with seeing the false as false, and that's what I'm constantly encouraging here, but there literally is no path to that seeing. It can only happen in this precise timeless moment and no other. If it's not seen in this moment then there is not the willingness to see it. There's also some value in chasing mirages until your camel falls dead from exhaustion, but that doesn't happen for professional seekers who write books about and draw detailed maps of the path. Does Dzogchen ever say 'You must throw this out as well?' (One does not need to be convinced about how reality is. True confidence doesn't come from conviction, it comes from realization.) That is a very good post, E, passionate albeit dead focused on the point. The last bit (between brackets) is wonderfully sobering. Not for the first time reading your posts I am a tad annoyed with the " If it's not seen in this moment then there is not the willingness to see it" kind of reference, that thought has confused me before, and although I completely agree with what I think you mean , the referring to willingness invites the reader to either think they could "will" better or feel something is amiss when that willingness is all too absent for not "seeing". You probably are the last one here to want to encourage the chase for the wild goose, so perhaps mentioning that some elusive "seeing" happens or does not in relation to willingness, is bordering on misleading... willingness as you paint it is there or not, but I would think it helpful to then clarify the existence of a willing agent —or possibly not. I know you can be quite good on that subject too ;-)
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Post by enigma on Oct 22, 2014 21:29:40 GMT -5
For 40 years the student walks the pathless path and still has not arrived at the place from which he started. Seems like we should at least be able to agree that the path can often become an encumbrance. I don't have an issue with seeing the false as false, and that's what I'm constantly encouraging here, but there literally is no path to that seeing. It can only happen in this precise timeless moment and no other. If it's not seen in this moment then there is not the willingness to see it. There's also some value in chasing mirages until your camel falls dead from exhaustion, but that doesn't happen for professional seekers who write books about and draw detailed maps of the path. Does Dzogchen ever say 'You must throw this out as well?' (One does not need to be convinced about how reality is. True confidence doesn't come from conviction, it comes from realization.) That is a very good post, E, passionate albeit dead focused on the point. The last bit (between brackets) is wonderfully sobering. Not for the first time reading your posts I am a tad annoyed with the " If it's not seen in this moment then there is not the willingness to see it" kind of reference, that thought has confused me before, and although I completely agree with what I think you mean , the referring to willingness invites the reader to either think they could "will" better or feel something is amiss when that willingness is all too absent for not "seeing". You probably are the last one here to want to encourage the chase for the wild goose, so perhaps mentioning that some elusive "seeing" happens or does not in relation to willingness, is bordering on misleading... willingness as you paint it is there or not, but I would think it helpful to then clarify the existence of a willing agent —or possibly not. I know you can be quite good on that subject too ;-) The other day at our squirrel satsang in the park, I was telling Marie about the habit discussion we had here recently. How the whole habit mind game battle is played so as to keep the habit going rather than to stop it. When this is seen, one is left face to face with nothing but their next choice. Marie got a sheepish look on her face, because she saw it. (I love when that happens) That day, one particular habit that she had been 'pretending' to work on for years, collapsed completely. It did so because she could no longer play the game. To say if one is not seeing the truth now, it is because there isn't the willingness to see, is addressing the same game in a different context. The annoyance is the result of somebody threatening that game, but if it is seen, then the game changes. Now the whole spiritual circus is packed up except for the ringmaster, left alone at center stage with himself and his own willingness, or lack of. One may then find a courage previously unrealized.
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Post by tzujanli on Oct 25, 2014 17:22:05 GMT -5
Stilling the mind is okay, and it can even be of some temporary value, but Hui Neng's statement points beyond---" Without hindrance let the mind function freely." Still mind or busy mind; it ultimately makes no difference. Understanding this is coming full circle to realizing, and then relaxing into being what we already are. "This. Is. It." This. Is. What. We. Are. The 'freely functioning mind' is still, until called upon to be active, and.. even then, it can be active AND still.. We don't relax into what we 'already are', we relax into ourselves happening.. we allow the happening to happen without contrivance, without resistance or insistence..
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Post by zendancer on Oct 26, 2014 10:58:01 GMT -5
Stilling the mind is okay, and it can even be of some temporary value, but Hui Neng's statement points beyond---" Without hindrance let the mind function freely." Still mind or busy mind; it ultimately makes no difference. Understanding this is coming full circle to realizing, and then relaxing into being what we already are. "This. Is. It." This. Is. What. We. Are. The 'freely functioning mind' is still, until called upon to be active, and.. even then, it can be active AND still.. We don't relax into what we 'already are', we relax into ourselves happening.. we allow the happening to happen without contrivance, without resistance or insistence.. Same same. "A rose is a rose is a rose." Gertrude Stein. "A rose by any other name would smell as sweet, etc......" Shakespeare
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