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Post by enigma on Oct 18, 2014 21:09:51 GMT -5
No, what's necessary is the understanding that ego is an illusion. All I did was agree with you, as I've been doing all along. So you are saying that you are free of ego? sdp Do you just make up stuff as you go along?
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Oct 18, 2014 21:16:57 GMT -5
So you are saying that you are free of ego? sdp Do you just make up stuff as you go along? No, I'd say it follows logically from your posts. Yes? No? sdp
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Oct 18, 2014 21:39:11 GMT -5
Dzogchen is about how to be free. It's not sufficient merely to receive the Dzogchen teachings: you must apply them, live them. Right now we are still enveloped in deluded experience. We have created a cage for ourselves out of our own emotions and our sense of duality, and here we sit, day in and day out. Once we clearly understand our situation, we have a choice: either we can remain in this cage or we can use the Dzogchen instructions to break it open and become free.
..........Sure, we can be told, "Sit down and let go completely, just be natural." But can we really do this? We try to let go, but actually we do not. We are still holding on--keeping hold of the letting go. We grip something else; and then we try to let go. We are always holding on to something, putting up resistance. Actually, we do not really want to let go. It is against our nature, so to speak. We prefer to retain ego control, which is a very strong habit. It does not matter how many times we are told to drop everything and be 100% uncontrived and natural; we still hold on to the letting go. We keep hold of what we are recognizing: "Now, now I recognize the nature of mind." We cling to the natural state, holding on to the concept "This is it." In other words, although we try to let go, a part of us is still holding on. Therefore, it is never the genuine natural state. Something is needed to completely shatter this conceptual attitude, to smash it to pieces. (pages 15,16)
Fearless Simplicity, The Dzogchen Way to Living Freely in a Complex World, 2003, Tsoknyi Rinpoche
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Post by tzujanli on Oct 18, 2014 22:17:56 GMT -5
'Fearless simplicity'.. the willingness to let go, to remain open, unttached to understandings.. fearless enough to examine your own understandings with as much intensity as you scrutinize others, as honest with others as you want others to be with you..
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Post by enigma on Oct 18, 2014 22:31:55 GMT -5
Do you just make up stuff as you go along? No, I'd say it follows logically from your posts. Yes? No? sdp Well, no, my post didn't say or imply or even hint anything about my own egoic state. Your responses sound like you're looking for an argument, and basically I'm saying there isn't one.
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Post by laughter on Oct 19, 2014 3:15:47 GMT -5
Fearless simplicity is, very simply, the absence of fear.
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Post by laughter on Oct 19, 2014 10:37:48 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2014 11:07:40 GMT -5
maxdprophet......I looked through my books. On the whole, dropping the Buddhist language and trappings, and for its specific help on arriving at and understanding our Primordial Nature, I can highly recommend Present Fresh Wakefulness, A Meditation Manual on Nonconceptual Wisdom, 2002, by Chokyi Nyima Rinpoche (born 1951). The book comes from seminars in Nepal and the USA, 1997 & 1998. Amazon has it. Back cover: Present Fresh Wakefulness is more than a set of general instructions on how to practice, it is the quintessential advice of an experienced, living master on what he considers to be the absolute necessities for today's yogis to arrive at liberation and complete enlightenment. ......................... We should know how to make the distinction between self-existing wakefulness and dualistic mind. Believing that we are sustaining the natural state of mind while we are caught up with ordinary thinking is not much use. We need to identify the genuine, the authentic--this is important. We need to identify that which is utterly empty, utterly naked, not confined to anything, totally clear and cognizant yet not fixed on anything. --Chokyi Nyima Rinpoche thanks!
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Oct 20, 2014 16:56:39 GMT -5
maxdprophet......I looked through my books. On the whole, dropping the Buddhist language and trappings, and for its specific help on arriving at and understanding our Primordial Nature, I can highly recommend Present Fresh Wakefulness, A Meditation Manual on Nonconceptual Wisdom, 2002, by Chokyi Nyima Rinpoche (born 1951). The book comes from seminars in Nepal and the USA, 1997 & 1998. Amazon has it. Back cover: Present Fresh Wakefulness is more than a set of general instructions on how to practice, it is the quintessential advice of an experienced, living master on what he considers to be the absolute necessities for today's yogis to arrive at liberation and complete enlightenment. ......................... We should know how to make the distinction between self-existing wakefulness and dualistic mind. Believing that we are sustaining the natural state of mind while we are caught up with ordinary thinking is not much use. We need to identify the genuine, the authentic--this is important. We need to identify that which is utterly empty, utterly naked, not confined to anything, totally clear and cognizant yet not fixed on anything. --Chokyi Nyima Rinpoche thanks! Sure. I just added a couple of hints to the Oct. 18 1:50PM "white sheet of typing paper" post. [ A-a] ..........although not probably necessary...
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Oct 20, 2014 18:42:55 GMT -5
Some quotes:
The essence of all teachings in Dzogchen is called rigpa. It is our natural state, unpolluted by any conceptual attitude. It is not something we make, not something we construct or something we do. (pg 79)
By recognizing the nature of the thinker, the thinking dissolves. When the thinking dissolves, that is the meditation state. There are different ways to define meditation and postmeditation, but basically, whenever there is thinking, it is postmeditation. (pgs 78,79)
This is the essence of Dzogchen practice: having thoroughly interrupted karma and disturbing emotions, deluded experience and concepts. It is the recognition of the moment in which the stream of thinking has been severed--when the past thought has ceased, the future one has not arrived and the thoughts of the present are not being formed. (pg 86)
The mind, our attention, looks and makes a thought of what is seen, and we get stuck in that thought, and are unable to be free. ........Recognizing mind nature is called taking your seat, the natural seat of nondual awareness. The moment attention is caught up in what is perceived, the natural seat is lost. (pg 89)
We need to deliberately remind ourselves of the nature of the mind, or else it will not just happen. (pg 100)
The question is: when exactly can we recognize our Buddha nature, the nature of mind? The answer is: when we are uninvolved in thoughts of the three times. (pg 107)
In order to engage the real practice, we must leave behind mental doing. ......Unfabricated naturalness is the awakened state. When totally free of mental doing, that itself is the awakened state. (pg 111)
Rigpa is not cultivated in mediation. The awakened state is not an object of the intellect. Rigpa is beyond intellect, and concepts. It is innate suchness. ....It is difficult because it is so simple. Nothing needs to be done there, and that is not our habit. We are used to doing, and doing requires effort. To simply be without doing anything ought to be easier. But because that is not our habit, to practice nondoing seems difficult. (pg 115)
...in Dzogchen, the main practice is to separate dualistic mind and rigpa. Dualistic mind means the state of being involved in the three spheres of concept: subject, object and action. Dualistic mind continually judges and analyzes. ......Rigpa, on the other hand, is not caught up in judging. (pgs 118, 119)
While knowing that thoughts are deluded, we still are caught up in delusion. (pg 120)
We need to know the difference between being deluded and being free. When caught up in thinking, we are deluded. To be free of thinking is to be free. Confusion and liberation both depend upon thought. Karma is like information saved on a computer. Thought is saved on the hard drive...... It is a strange type of hard drive; you cannot erase so easily. To erase it, to be free, you need to be free of thinking. (pg 122)
It does not help to sit and be dull. Instead, be utterly awake. Have a totally awake mind. Be bright, clear, lucid. ......Stripping awareness to its naked state means that your awareness has to be laid totally and completely bare, to be rigpa. (pgs 126,127)
In Dzogchen it is necessary to distinguish between dualistic mind and rigpa. (pg 129)
The bottom line is this: we need to know how to dissolve thoughts. Without knowing this we cannot eliminate karma and disturbing emotions. And therefore, the karmic phenomenon do not vanish; deluded experience does not end. We understand also that one thought cannot undo another thought. The only thing that can undo this is thought-free wakefulness. This is not some state that is far away from us: thought-free wakefulness actually exists together with every thought, inseparable from it - but the thinking obscures or hides this innate actuality. Thought-free wakefulness is immediately present the very moment the thinking dissolves.......(pg 133)
In a moment of nondual wakefulness, no thought can be formed and no thought can remain. .....
For a short while There is total freedom from samsara, Total freedom from karma and disturbing emotions. Even though it is so short, How utterly amazing! For a brief moment we have awakened From the sleep of delusion.
There is still something incomplete here, though. Because we are not used to being composed in that natural state, the continuity of our innate nature, the ongoingness of that basic space, gets lost again. What is it that kicks us out or makes us stray from the basic state? It is karma, which in our case is our ingrained habit of thinking. We are very used to forming and getting involved in thoughts. Due to this habit, we start to think again, automatically. We don't have an idea of where that thought came from, or what happened. It is by force of the habit of thinking that a thought is formed, whether it be of past, present or future. (pgs 106, 107)
Present Fresh Wakefulness, A Meditation Manual on Nonconceptual Wisdom, 2002, Chokyi Nyima Rinpoche
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Oct 21, 2014 11:14:32 GMT -5
'Fearless simplicity'.. the willingness to let go, to remain open, unttached to understandings.. fearless enough to examine your own understandings with as much intensity as you scrutinize others, as honest with others as you want others to be with you.. Tzu, I could say that that's pretty accurate Dzogchen teaching, but I won't ...... . Also: B Alan Wallace has been a Western student of Dzogchen for over forty years, was a monk for fourteen years, is fluent in Tibetan and has translated several Dzogchen texts and has written several books on Dzogchen from a Western viewpoint. One being: Stilling The Mind Shamatha Teachings From Dudjom Lingpa's Vajra Essence, 2011
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Post by enigma on Oct 21, 2014 12:10:27 GMT -5
'Fearless simplicity'.. the willingness to let go, to remain open, unttached to understandings.. fearless enough to examine your own understandings with as much intensity as you scrutinize others, as honest with others as you want others to be with you.. Tzu, I could say that that's pretty accurate Dzogchen teaching, but I won't ...... . Also: B Alan Wallace has been a Western student of Dzogchen for over forty years, was a monk for fourteen years, is fluent in Tibetan and has translated several Dzogchen texts and has written several books on Dzogchen from a Western viewpoint. One being: Stilling The Mind Shamatha Teachings From Dudjom Lingpa's Vajra Essence, 2011 Now that's a professional student! When is the graduation?
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Oct 21, 2014 16:54:38 GMT -5
Tzu, I could say that that's pretty accurate Dzogchen teaching, but I won't ...... . Also: B Alan Wallace has been a Western student of Dzogchen for over forty years, was a monk for fourteen years, is fluent in Tibetan and has translated several Dzogchen texts and has written several books on Dzogchen from a Western viewpoint. One being: Stilling The Mind Shamatha Teachings From Dudjom Lingpa's Vajra Essence, 2011 Now that's a professional student! When is the graduation? In the beginning one needs to be convinced about how reality is: one needs to have confidence in the view. Ultimately, however, any form of conviction is still a subtle obscuration, still a hindrance. At the final stage of nonmeditation, all types of habitual tendencies and convictions need to be dissolved, left behind. There is nothing more to cultivate, nothing more to reach. One has arrived at the end of the path. All that needs to be purified has been purified. Karma, disturbing emotions and the habitual tendencies have all been cleared up, so that nothing is left. The path is necessary as long as we have not arrived. The moment we arrive, however, the need for the road to get there has fallen away. As long as we are not at our destination, then it is necessary to have the concept of the path in order to get there. But once the destination has been reached, once whatever needs to be cultivated has been cultivated, and whatever needs to be abandoned has been left behind, the whole need for path is over. That is what is meant by nonmeditation, literally, non-cultivation. This is the dharmakaya throne of nonmeditation. In Dzogchen, the exhaustion of all concepts and phenomenon is the ultimate level of experience. This is the state of complete enlightenment. Both these levels of experience are equal to that of all buddhas. page 138 Fresh Present Wakefulness by Chokyi Nyima Rinpoche
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Post by enigma on Oct 21, 2014 18:31:53 GMT -5
Now that's a professional student! When is the graduation? In the beginning one needs to be convinced about how reality is: one needs to have confidence in the view. Ultimately, however, any form of conviction is still a subtle obscuration, still a hindrance. At the final stage of nonmeditation, all types of habitual tendencies and convictions need to be dissolved, left behind. There is nothing more to cultivate, nothing more to reach. One has arrived at the end of the path. All that needs to be purified has been purified. Karma, disturbing emotions and the habitual tendencies have all been cleared up, so that nothing is left. The path is necessary as long as we have not arrived. The moment we arrive, however, the need for the road to get there has fallen away. As long as we are not at our destination, then it is necessary to have the concept of the path in order to get there. But once the destination has been reached, once whatever needs to be cultivated has been cultivated, and whatever needs to be abandoned has been left behind, the whole need for path is over. That is what is meant by nonmeditation, literally, non-cultivation. This is the dharmakaya throne of nonmeditation. In Dzogchen, the exhaustion of all concepts and phenomenon is the ultimate level of experience. This is the state of complete enlightenment. Both these levels of experience are equal to that of all buddhas. page 138 Fresh Present Wakefulness by Chokyi Nyima Rinpoche For 40 years the student walks the pathless path and still has not arrived at the place from which he started. Seems like we should at least be able to agree that the path can often become an encumbrance. I don't have an issue with seeing the false as false, and that's what I'm constantly encouraging here, but there literally is no path to that seeing. It can only happen in this precise timeless moment and no other. If it's not seen in this moment then there is not the willingness to see it. There's also some value in chasing mirages until your camel falls dead from exhaustion, but that doesn't happen for professional seekers who write books about and draw detailed maps of the path. Does Dzogchen ever say 'You must throw this out as well?' (One does not need to be convinced about how reality is. True confidence doesn't come from conviction, it comes from realization.)
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Post by zendancer on Oct 21, 2014 19:06:43 GMT -5
Stilling the mind is okay, and it can even be of some temporary value, but Hui Neng's statement points beyond---"Without hindrance let the mind function freely."
Still mind or busy mind; it ultimately makes no difference. Understanding this is coming full circle to realizing, and then relaxing into being what we already are.
"This. Is. It."
This. Is. What. We. Are.
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