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Post by enigma on Sept 21, 2014 12:36:26 GMT -5
Well, part of infinity cannot be other than infinity itself. But unlike the Unlimited, we exist here and now in both the limitations of duality AND unlimited non-duality, whereas the Unlimited is at all limited. That appears to make us different in some distinct ways from the Unlimited, no? The distinctions within 'the unlimited' are arbitrary. There can't actually be 'the unlimited' and then 'the limited' which is somehow other than that. The "us" to which you refer is "the unlimited" itself 'in motion', or if you like, in expression. You wouldn't say a car in motion is in some ways distinct from a car. I also would not say that this personal expression 'exists', but that may be a different discussion.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2014 12:47:56 GMT -5
Oh dear...
You've never heard the expression in a heart to heart moment?
Haha! Silver nailed it. Yes, Seymour - that's what the Meanwhile... was about. Still...words are good too. I know that's what the Meanwhile... was about. That's why I typed it back to you, after saying it means everything to me.
There's an ease and a grace within the whole ocean is within each drop. A letting go. I don't have to shoulder everything on my own. There's a rhyme and reason to everything happening.
TMT
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Post by enigma on Sept 21, 2014 12:52:48 GMT -5
Well, part of infinity cannot be other than infinity itself. Not just constitutionally identical. The metaphor of the drop separate from the ocean is not a metaphor for the infinite because the drop is physically separate from the ocean, and the metaphor is a physical one. Though perhaps the wave is a good metaphor. The wave is not other than the ocean in motion. The physical distinction is arbitrary as there's no place where the ocean ends and the wave begins, so there's no real temptation to say the wave is not the ocean itself. Agreed. The wave/ocean metaphor is much easier to grasp than the droplet/ocean. That's why I often use the hand/wrist/arm metaphor. People can see that the idea of separation is just an idea much more easily when "things" do not appear to be physically separate. Alan Watts had a lot of good examples of this, and I always liked the question he posed to students, "Where does your fist GO when you open your hand?" Ha ha. Yes, I almost used the hand/wrist/arm metaphor in posting to JLY, but I'm starting to go into metaphorical overload. Hehe. The drop/ocean metaphor lends itself to the idea of 'common substance', which is not what's being pointed to at all. Peeps like it because it supports separation.
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Post by laughter on Sept 21, 2014 12:55:21 GMT -5
How would that be possible? The infinite would also include the infinitesimal, and in fact it does. The still, deep ocean is one manifestation but contains, surface disturbances like waves, drops and spray that are small, time-bound, unique expressions of the one ocean, even as they are constitutionally identical with the ocean, while the ocean, in its absolute depth and wholeness, can not be said to be a limited expression. So, it can be said that the drop is ocean while it can not be said that the ocean is the drop, even if compositionally identical. Same but different, no? And if not, why not? The limited utility of the metaphor is demonstrated by the simple observation that the ocean is not, in fact, unlimited. This is certainly reductive, but it's as good a reason as any to set aside ideas about what appears to us as they relate to the question of what it is that we are.
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Post by enigma on Sept 21, 2014 12:58:07 GMT -5
Haha! Silver nailed it. Yes, Seymour - that's what the Meanwhile... was about. Still...words are good too. I know that's what the Meanwhile... was about. That's why I typed it back to you, after saying it means everything to me.
There's an ease and a grace within the whole ocean is within each drop. A letting go. I don't have to shoulder everything on my own. There's a rhyme and reason to everything happening.
TMT
God is not watching over you.
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Post by laughter on Sept 21, 2014 12:59:25 GMT -5
The ocean didn't fall on the lawn yesterday, raindrops did.. there were no whales or lobsters in those drops, that simplicity doesn't play well to the mind's desire for self-importance.. it is what it is, raindrops are not oceans and oceans are not raindrops, except in the mind's imagination.. Let's just stay in one metaphor for a second...drops and ocean. Just for a second. If you remove the ocean, where are the drops? If you remove the drops, where is the ocean? It's just a simple little metaphor that nicely describes non-separation. Expanding the metaphor like you did makes for a much more complex conversation. In my experience, complexity moves further away from seeing something as simple as non-separation. Then we get to start talking about how fundamentally rain is no different than our bodies which are fundamentally no different than the cosmos. Lots of fodder for debate there. The ocean metaphor, in its simplicity, points to something that can ring true in our hearts. It's below-the-neck stuff. I find this to be well said. It occurs to me that if it generates above the neck stuff, then isn't that a clue to us that we should throw it away?
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Post by laughter on Sept 21, 2014 13:00:59 GMT -5
lawn lobster!
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Post by laughter on Sept 21, 2014 13:03:41 GMT -5
Maybe some day you'll expand on that, eh? Meanwhile... I took it to mean that God is not something separate to and outside of yourself -- which is not, of course, to say that you are God.
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Post by quinn on Sept 21, 2014 13:05:08 GMT -5
Haha! Silver nailed it. Yes, Seymour - that's what the Meanwhile... was about. Still...words are good too. I know that's what the Meanwhile... was about. That's why I typed it back to you, after saying it means everything to me.
There's an ease and a grace within the whole ocean is within each drop. A letting go. I don't have to shoulder everything on my own. There's a rhyme and reason to everything happening.
TMT
Ease and grace doesn't sound TMT to me at all. Rhyme and reason, though...that sounds like a mental overlay. Not something I've seen, anyway.
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Post by laughter on Sept 21, 2014 13:05:19 GMT -5
A drop is the product of a drip.
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Post by tzujanli on Sept 21, 2014 13:05:52 GMT -5
Well, part of infinity cannot be other than infinity itself. Not just constitutionally identical. The metaphor of the drop separate from the ocean is not a metaphor for the infinite because the drop is physically separate from the ocean, and the metaphor is a physical one. Though perhaps the wave is a good metaphor. The wave is not other than the ocean in motion. The physical distinction is arbitrary as there's no place where the ocean ends and the wave begins, so there's no real temptation to say the wave is not the ocean itself. Agreed. The wave/ocean metaphor is much easier to grasp than the droplet/ocean. That's why I often use the hand/wrist/arm metaphor. People can see that the idea of separation is just an idea much more easily when "things" do not appear to be physically separate. Alan Watts had a lot of good examples of this, and I always liked the question he posed to students, "Where does your fist GO when you open your hand?" Ha ha. Hi ZD: That's a word-game, conceptualized to support your preferred model.. the hand is open and it is closed, closed is also labeled 'fist', or 'grasp' sometimes.. when you describe what hurts, do you say hand when it's your wrist that hurts? the doctor could misdiagnose a serious issue due to such want for oneness.. Practical simplicity frees-up the experiencer for still-minded awareness if that's the intention, or.. word-play/mind-play banter may be the more desirable experience for some people..
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Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2014 13:06:01 GMT -5
I know that's what the Meanwhile... was about. That's why I typed it back to you, after saying it means everything to me.
There's an ease and a grace within the whole ocean is within each drop. A letting go. I don't have to shoulder everything on my own. There's a rhyme and reason to everything happening.
TMT
God is not watching over you. I didn't say God was. I'm guessing you're responding to the shouldering remark.
I'm saying everything is just fine.
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Post by laughter on Sept 21, 2014 13:06:59 GMT -5
We need words -- more words, seymour, ha ha ha. (** muttley snicker **)
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Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2014 13:08:38 GMT -5
I know that's what the Meanwhile... was about. That's why I typed it back to you, after saying it means everything to me.
There's an ease and a grace within the whole ocean is within each drop. A letting go. I don't have to shoulder everything on my own. There's a rhyme and reason to everything happening.
TMT
Ease and grace doesn't sound TMT to me at all. Rhyme and reason, though...that sounds like a mental overlay. Not something I've seen, anyway. Rhyme and reason- something wants to know/experience itself through this experience, or that.
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Post by laughter on Sept 21, 2014 13:09:25 GMT -5
Well, part of infinity cannot be other than infinity itself. But unlike the Unlimited, we exist here and now in both the limitations of duality AND unlimited non-duality, whereas the Unlimited is at all limited. That appears to make us different in some distinct ways from the Unlimited, no? You, are not your experience.
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