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Post by tzujanli on Sept 18, 2014 16:43:24 GMT -5
To say that this is how the cosmos manifests should not be meant to say that it cannot be otherwise, at least for some individuals, or why should it? There is the story of Milarepa. His father died when he was seven and the family was taken over by his uncle. Uncle and wife didn't treat Milarepa and his mother too well and mother persuaded Milarepa to learn the art of black magic and sorcery to punish uncle. Milarepa did so and eventually killed at least 35 people. He later had remorse for his deeds and sought a teacher vowing to become a Buddha in one life. He found his teacher Marpa. For years Marpa made him jump through a lot of hoops, part of it building and tearing down four different buildings. Milarepa after years came to the point of despair left Marpa to find a different teacher and also became suicidal. Eventually Milarepa went back to Marpa, finished the teaching and became a teacher in the lineage, a very great teacher. So, ZD, say Milarepa comes to you, as a disciple, what do you tell him? You're just a cog in the machinery of the cosmos, it's not good or bad that you killed 35 people, it just happened, nothing to worry about, everything is perfectly so. Let's go have a beer.......?...... sdp Because the universe is manifesting right now via some online bloke named maxdprophet to interject rudely in a convo not having to do with him.... It seems like you, SDP, and Tzu, aren't really getting what ZD is saying here. "Let's go have a beer" may happen, who knows? Perhaps that would make sense given the situation. My guess is that ZD would go all ATA on his a55, Tzu would go all let-go-still-mind, and you would advise some combo of therapy and hardcore training (but really I have no clue). Stop killing peeps would probably be the first thing y'all would say to him. Who knows? The story of Milarepa primarily functions to aid people in buckling down, applying themselves, upping the earnestness and sincerity. It aids in reinforcing a culture of focus on the actual, on still mind, on ______. To say it is all 'perfectly so' does not mean someone doesn't say STOP!!! given a situation where a berobed spiritual dude is about to cut off the head of a journalist. STOP!! is exactly part of the 'perfectly so.' Get it? 'Perfectly so' is meaningless by your description of it, extra words that have no effect other than to confuse those not well-versed in the philosophical mind-play of those maintaining a 'perfectly so' belief.. There is resistance to finding 'common understanding' by those attached to specialized descriptions of otherwise common experiences.. there is insistence that specialized beliefs be adhered to, like: 'everything is perfectly so', where the insistence creates confusion and illusion.. the resistance creates unnecessary separation between experiencers' understandings rather than creating space for common understandings..
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Post by steven on Sept 18, 2014 23:57:21 GMT -5
This is a very good question. I just went over to the un-moderated section. Steve had started a thread on meditation, I was going to refer to it, it's no longer there, don't know what happened to it. (Edit: It's on this side, not in the un-moderated section, the OP of Do you value meditation?) Anyway, he said meditation isn't a practice, it's a state. I don't wholly agree, it depends upon definitions. Anyway..... it's no longer there so it doesn't matter..........I'd say what Steve calls the state of meditation is akin to what Merrell-Wolff calls Consciousness Without an Object (below). A couple of posts down you recognize that reading is a whole lot of minding. By ATA ZD means ATA-MT, at least that's where it's headed. He later added minus thought to clarify. Anyway, laughter was pointing out that almost by definition, you can't ATA while reading. However, there is a state one can be in where one is not wholly absorbed in the reading while one is reading. But previous to this, it's easier to find this state in ATA-MT, one is not wholly absorbed in what one is attending to. And a further state Franklin Merrell-Wolff described as Consciousness Without an Object. But further, one can be in the state of Consciousness Without an Object, in the presence of objects, IOW, while ATA. sdp The underlying, but usually misunderstood, goal of zazen, tai chi, ATA, ATA-MT, Samadhi, keeping a still mind, and all other meditative practices is to develop enough internal psychological space to discover what's going on and who one IS. It is to become free from existential questions, compulsive self-referentiality, and compulsive thought. It is to live life in a state of full acceptance without reflection, attachment, or any idea about how life "should be." The eventual result of a successful search for truth is leaving self-referential thinking behind and attaining the innocence and ability to once again live life like a small child while retaining full adult intellectual capabilities. It is not special, and it leads to an ordinary life full of ordinary activities during which the mind remains free and substantially non-reflective. If pursued with persistence, it leads to a life of presence and attentiveness rather than a life of reflection about the past or future. The person who comes full circle (from ignorance to understanding) cannot be categorized as any kind of thing because s/he is a manifestation of a unified cosmos that is beyond any intellectual compartmentalizationalisam. If it's time to read a book, just read a book. If it's time to go to work, just go to work. Whatever needs doing, just do it. If you like to write poetry, write poetry. If you like to walk in the woods, walk in the woods. When the mind becomes quiescent and uncluttered, life becomes simple and uncomplicated, and what needs to be done in the present moment is obvious. The search for truth is like a disease of the mind, and all practices, questioning, and inquiry, in the most basic sense, are ways to become free from the disease. If we give up judgement, opinions, expectations, and all other ideas, what are we left with? Just this moment and whatever is happening in this moment. What we see is what we get. This is it, and this is what we are--the cosmos unfolding in its empty but spectacular beingness. In the vastness of This there is no better or worse, no higher or lower, and no attainment of anything other than the ability to watch the unfoldment, and accept whatever is happening without expecting anything different. Each human being is unique. Some people and sages are deeply reverential, whereas others are not. Some people and sages are socially engaged, and others are not. Some people and sages are gregarious, and others enjoy being hermits. There simply is no "right way" to be other than what you already are. In the grand scheme of things how anyone's life unfolds is always perfectly so. The average person spends most of his/her time lost in unconscious compulsive self-referential thing-oriented thought. Freedom from such thought is a great blessing. One should not approach Meditation with or for a goal. Meditation IS the goal, not a means to a goal.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2014 7:37:46 GMT -5
Because the universe is manifesting right now via some online bloke named maxdprophet to interject rudely in a convo not having to do with him.... It seems like you, SDP, and Tzu, aren't really getting what ZD is saying here. "Let's go have a beer" may happen, who knows? Perhaps that would make sense given the situation. My guess is that ZD would go all ATA on his a55, Tzu would go all let-go-still-mind, and you would advise some combo of therapy and hardcore training (but really I have no clue). Stop killing peeps would probably be the first thing y'all would say to him. Who knows? The story of Milarepa primarily functions to aid people in buckling down, applying themselves, upping the earnestness and sincerity. It aids in reinforcing a culture of focus on the actual, on still mind, on ______. To say it is all 'perfectly so' does not mean someone doesn't say STOP!!! given a situation where a berobed spiritual dude is about to cut off the head of a journalist. STOP!! is exactly part of the 'perfectly so.' Get it? 'Perfectly so' is meaningless by your description of it, extra words that have no effect other than to confuse those not well-versed in the philosophical mind-play of those maintaining a 'perfectly so' belief.. There is resistance to finding 'common understanding' by those attached to specialized descriptions of otherwise common experiences.. there is insistence that specialized beliefs be adhered to, like: 'everything is perfectly so', where the insistence creates confusion and illusion.. the resistance creates unnecessary separation between experiencers' understandings rather than creating space for common understandings.. You're right that saying 'perfectly so' in general, in say a day-to-day context would probably be hugely inappropriate, given whatever atrocious thing going on is happening. Let's call that meaning #1. When you converse on this forum are you thinking that it is such an audience? I usually am taking for granted that the vast majority of the readers here are either 'well-versed' or open to it. I include myself as someone of the latter. When I first heard 'perfectly so' it was quite easy and natural to scoff at it. But as I've come to understand the other usage of it -- call it meaning #2 -- I appreciate it. Note this doesn't necessarily mean that I'm now hopelessly corrupted, but I'm also open to that being a possibility. Rest assured, I feel like the meaning #1 is entirely intact in my psyche, and that I am still fully capable of discerning when the proper usage is called for.
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Post by zendancer on Sept 19, 2014 9:41:12 GMT -5
'Perfectly so' is meaningless by your description of it, extra words that have no effect other than to confuse those not well-versed in the philosophical mind-play of those maintaining a 'perfectly so' belief.. There is resistance to finding 'common understanding' by those attached to specialized descriptions of otherwise common experiences.. there is insistence that specialized beliefs be adhered to, like: 'everything is perfectly so', where the insistence creates confusion and illusion.. the resistance creates unnecessary separation between experiencers' understandings rather than creating space for common understandings.. You're right that saying 'perfectly so' in general, in say a day-to-day context would probably be hugely inappropriate, given whatever atrocious thing going on is happening. Let's call that meaning #1. When you converse on this forum are you thinking that it is such an audience? I usually am taking for granted that the vast majority of the readers here are either 'well-versed' or open to it. I include myself as someone of the latter. When I first heard 'perfectly so' it was quite easy and natural to scoff at it. But as I've come to understand the other usage of it -- call it meaning #2 -- I appreciate it. Note this doesn't necessarily mean that I'm now hopelessly corrupted, but I'm also open to that being a possibility. Rest assured, I feel like the meaning #1 is entirely intact in my psyche, and that I am still fully capable of discerning when the proper usage is called for. Max: Your assessment of the language issue is accurate. I started to respond to SDP's post, but got too busy with a construction project to finish it. I could write a pretty funny story about that project but I'll save that for later--just picture 9 men and 9 yards of wetly-pumped concrete standing on a metal deck supported by I-beams 12 feet above a concrete block and steel reinforced basement tornado shelter as the sheer weight of the concrete and men began to reach the limits of what the decking could support--ha ha. AAR, here was the start of that unfinished post: SDP: There are two kinds of realizations. One kind is what arrives "via negativa;" we discover what is NOT so. The discovery that one is NOT what one thought she was is an example of this. The other kind arrives "via positiva," through some faculty of mind through which the cosmos perceives itself directly; the cosmos (personhood is not present when this happens) discovers what IS SO. In both cases the intellect is bypassed, but later becomes informed by what has been seen and realized. What I'm pointing to with the phrase "perfectly so" carries no logical implications concerning how people "should" act; it is a simple acceptance and realization of what is already the case. It is as if we were watching a play together in a theater, and you said to me, "I think it's terrible that one of the actors just murdered another actor; don't you agree?" I would have to respond, "SDP, it's just a play; no one really got murdered. At the end of the play everyone will come out on the stage and take a bow." This is a weak and watered-down version of what is realized and directly perceived "via positiva." It has nothing to do with ideas of any kind. It is as if the universe occasionally perceives the whole of itself in some direct manner that is beyond ordinary human comprehension. Here is part of what Richard Bucke wrote when he tried to describe what happened to him in 1899: "I was in a state of quiet, almost passive enjoyment. All at once, without warning of any kind, I found myself wrapped around as it were by a flame-colored cloud. For an instant I thought of fire, some sudden conflagration in the great city; the next, I knew that the light was within myself. Directly afterwards came upon me a sense of exultation, of immense joyousness accompanied or immediately followed by an intellectual illumination quite impossible to describe........Among other things I did not come to believe, I saw and knew that the Cosmos is not dead matter but a living Presence, that the soul of man is immortal, that the universe is so built and ordered that without any peradventure all things work together for the good of each and all, that the foundation principle of the world is what we call love and that the happiness of every one is in the long run absolutely certain." IOW, it's like seeing, in some direct way, that the cosmos is a kind of infinite, super-realistic, mind-boggling play in which all of the actors, as well as the stage and the audience, and the mind and being of the playwright are all a unified whole, and that nothing is what it ordinarily seems to be. A body/mind having this kind of experience cares nothing about the life or death of him/herself, or anything else, because the perfection, vastness, and intricacy of the whole is somehow directly apprehended. In one instant one's entire understanding of reality is forever changed, and it is never forgotten. It is like seeing that something vast and benevolent is in charge of everything--of the play's script--, and that every character in the play is playing her part perfectly in the hands of that master playwright/Presence. One who sees this can totally relax and know that "all is well, and all manner of being will be well, forever and ever, amen." As Bucke noted, "it is quite impossible to describe," but there is no doubt about what is seen. The phrase "perfectly so" points to the underlying perfection of THAT. It makes no logical sense, and it cannot be fathomed by the intellect, but those who see it almost always use the word "perfection" to describe what they saw.
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Post by laughter on Sept 19, 2014 11:20:11 GMT -5
The underlying, but usually misunderstood, goal of zazen, tai chi, ATA, ATA-MT, Samadhi, keeping a still mind, and all other meditative practices is to develop enough internal psychological space to discover what's going on and who one IS. It is to become free from existential questions, compulsive self-referentiality, and compulsive thought. It is to live life in a state of full acceptance without reflection, attachment, or any idea about how life "should be." The eventual result of a successful search for truth is leaving self-referential thinking behind and attaining the innocence and ability to once again live life like a small child while retaining full adult intellectual capabilities. It is not special, and it leads to an ordinary life full of ordinary activities during which the mind remains free and substantially non-reflective. If pursued with persistence, it leads to a life of presence and attentiveness rather than a life of reflection about the past or future. The person who comes full circle (from ignorance to understanding) cannot be categorized as any kind of thing because s/he is a manifestation of a unified cosmos that is beyond any intellectual compartmentalizationalisam. If it's time to read a book, just read a book. If it's time to go to work, just go to work. Whatever needs doing, just do it. If you like to write poetry, write poetry. If you like to walk in the woods, walk in the woods. When the mind becomes quiescent and uncluttered, life becomes simple and uncomplicated, and what needs to be done in the present moment is obvious. The search for truth is like a disease of the mind, and all practices, questioning, and inquiry, in the most basic sense, are ways to become free from the disease. If we give up judgement, opinions, expectations, and all other ideas, what are we left with? Just this moment and whatever is happening in this moment. What we see is what we get. This is it, and this is what we are--the cosmos unfolding in its empty but spectacular beingness. In the vastness of This there is no better or worse, no higher or lower, and no attainment of anything other than the ability to watch the unfoldment, and accept whatever is happening without expecting anything different. Each human being is unique. Some people and sages are deeply reverential, whereas others are not. Some people and sages are socially engaged, and others are not. Some people and sages are gregarious, and others enjoy being hermits. There simply is no "right way" to be other than what you already are. In the grand scheme of things how anyone's life unfolds is always perfectly so. The average person spends most of his/her time lost in unconscious compulsive self-referential thing-oriented thought. Freedom from such thought is a great blessing. One should not approach Meditation with or for a goal. Meditation IS the goal, not a means to a goal. Yes, I agree, but not even that. No goal. Most of the meditation I've done in my life was unconscious and involved pleasure seeking: skiing, taking in the sights, cold water on a hot summer day, lots of other stuff. Much of the advertisements for sitting meditation or yoga practice seem to stress the health and wellness benefits. So, what happens when the underlying goal that ZD mentioned is out front? Seems to me that the meditator at that point is in a sort of Chinese finger trap like the one described by U.G.
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Post by someNOTHING! on Sept 19, 2014 15:35:59 GMT -5
You're right that saying 'perfectly so' in general, in say a day-to-day context would probably be hugely inappropriate, given whatever atrocious thing going on is happening. Let's call that meaning #1. When you converse on this forum are you thinking that it is such an audience? I usually am taking for granted that the vast majority of the readers here are either 'well-versed' or open to it. I include myself as someone of the latter. When I first heard 'perfectly so' it was quite easy and natural to scoff at it. But as I've come to understand the other usage of it -- call it meaning #2 -- I appreciate it. Note this doesn't necessarily mean that I'm now hopelessly corrupted, but I'm also open to that being a possibility. Rest assured, I feel like the meaning #1 is entirely intact in my psyche, and that I am still fully capable of discerning when the proper usage is called for. Max: Your assessment of the language issue is accurate. I started to respond to SDP's post, but got too busy with a construction project to finish it. I could write a pretty funny story about that project but I'll save that for later--just picture 9 men and 9 yards of wetly-pumped concrete standing on a metal deck supported by I-beams 12 feet above a concrete block and steel reinforced basement tornado shelter as the sheer weight of the concrete and men began to reach the limits of what the decking could support--ha ha. AAR, here was the start of that unfinished post: SDP: There are two kinds of realizations. One kind is what arrives "via negativa;" we discover what is NOT so. The discovery that one is NOT what one thought she was is an example of this. The other kind arrives "via positiva," through some faculty of mind through which the cosmos perceives itself directly; the cosmos (personhood is not present when this happens) discovers what IS SO. In both cases the intellect is bypassed, but later becomes informed by what has been seen and realized. What I'm pointing to with the phrase "perfectly so" carries no logical implications concerning how people "should" act; it is a simple acceptance and realization of what is already the case. It is as if we were watching a play together in a theater, and you said to me, "I think it's terrible that one of the actors just murdered another actor; don't you agree?" I would have to respond, "SDP, it's just a play; no one really got murdered. At the end of the play everyone will come out on the stage and take a bow." This is a weak and watered-down version of what is realized and directly perceived "via positiva." It has nothing to do with ideas of any kind. It is as if the universe occasionally perceives the whole of itself in some direct manner that is beyond ordinary human comprehension. Here is part of what Richard Bucke wrote when he tried to describe what happened to him in 1899: "I was in a state of quiet, almost passive enjoyment. All at once, without warning of any kind, I found myself wrapped around as it were by a flame-colored cloud. For an instant I thought of fire, some sudden conflagration in the great city; the next, I knew that the light was within myself. Directly afterwards came upon me a sense of exultation, of immense joyousness accompanied or immediately followed by an intellectual illumination quite impossible to describe........Among other things I did not come to believe, I saw and knew that the Cosmos is not dead matter but a living Presence, that the soul of man is immortal, that the universe is so built and ordered that without any peradventure all things work together for the good of each and all, that the foundation principle of the world is what we call love and that the happiness of every one is in the long run absolutely certain." IOW, it's like seeing, in some direct way, that the cosmos is a kind of infinite, super-realistic, mind-boggling play in which all of the actors, as well as the stage and the audience, and the mind and being of the playwright are all a unified whole, and that nothing is what it ordinarily seems to be. A body/mind having this kind of experience cares nothing about the life or death of him/herself, or anything else, because the perfection, vastness, and intricacy of the whole is somehow directly apprehended. In one instant one's entire understanding of reality is forever changed, and it is never forgotten. It is like seeing that something vast and benevolent is in charge of everything--of the play's script--, and that every character in the play is playing her part perfectly in the hands of that master playwright/Presence. One who sees this can totally relax and know that "all is well, and all manner of being will be well, forever and ever, amen." As Bucke noted, "it is quite impossible to describe," but there is no doubt about what is seen. The phrase "perfectly so" points to the underlying perfection of THAT. It makes no logical sense, and it cannot be fathomed by the intellect, but those who see it almost always use the word "perfection" to describe what they saw. Hey, thanks ZD for elucidating "perfectly so" much better than I ever could! I guess I can add my own whimsical definition! Perfectly so- Pointer for Whatever Is. When it is gnossisticly known / awared / grokked that any need to sort out infinity and/or seek the eternal is a mind game, clarity happens, and the pointer is realized---<<<poof>>>. When such mind games persist, suffering happens and is inevitable . The apparent variation of the game is seemingly infinite, but actually boils down to one misconception. I.Can't.Seem.To.Get.It. Back to the drama in the desert! Wahooooooo!
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Post by someNOTHING! on Sept 19, 2014 15:39:18 GMT -5
'Perfectly so' is meaningless by your description of it, extra words that have no effect other than to confuse those not well-versed in the philosophical mind-play of those maintaining a 'perfectly so' belief.. There is resistance to finding 'common understanding' by those attached to specialized descriptions of otherwise common experiences.. there is insistence that specialized beliefs be adhered to, like: 'everything is perfectly so', where the insistence creates confusion and illusion.. the resistance creates unnecessary separation between experiencers' understandings rather than creating space for common understandings.. You're right that saying 'perfectly so' in general, in say a day-to-day context would probably be hugely inappropriate, given whatever atrocious thing going on is happening. Let's call that meaning #1. When you converse on this forum are you thinking that it is such an audience? I usually am taking for granted that the vast majority of the readers here are either 'well-versed' or open to it. I include myself as someone of the latter. When I first heard 'perfectly so' it was quite easy and natural to scoff at it. But as I've come to understand the other usage of it -- call it meaning #2 -- I appreciate it. Note this doesn't necessarily mean that I'm now hopelessly corrupted, but I'm also open to that being a possibility. Rest assured, I feel like the meaning #1 is entirely intact in my psyche, and that I am still fully capable of discerning when the proper usage is called for. Would you say you're still trying to sort out infinity and/or seek the eternal?
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Post by laughter on Sept 19, 2014 15:58:14 GMT -5
Max: Your assessment of the language issue is accurate. I started to respond to SDP's post, but got too busy with a construction project to finish it. I could write a pretty funny story about that project but I'll save that for later--just picture 9 men and 9 yards of wetly-pumped concrete standing on a metal deck supported by I-beams 12 feet above a concrete block and steel reinforced basement tornado shelter as the sheer weight of the concrete and men began to reach the limits of what the decking could support--ha ha. AAR, here was the start of that unfinished post: SDP: There are two kinds of realizations. One kind is what arrives "via negativa;" we discover what is NOT so. The discovery that one is NOT what one thought she was is an example of this. The other kind arrives "via positiva," through some faculty of mind through which the cosmos perceives itself directly; the cosmos (personhood is not present when this happens) discovers what IS SO. In both cases the intellect is bypassed, but later becomes informed by what has been seen and realized. What I'm pointing to with the phrase "perfectly so" carries no logical implications concerning how people "should" act; it is a simple acceptance and realization of what is already the case. It is as if we were watching a play together in a theater, and you said to me, "I think it's terrible that one of the actors just murdered another actor; don't you agree?" I would have to respond, "SDP, it's just a play; no one really got murdered. At the end of the play everyone will come out on the stage and take a bow." This is a weak and watered-down version of what is realized and directly perceived "via positiva." It has nothing to do with ideas of any kind. It is as if the universe occasionally perceives the whole of itself in some direct manner that is beyond ordinary human comprehension. Here is part of what Richard Bucke wrote when he tried to describe what happened to him in 1899: "I was in a state of quiet, almost passive enjoyment. All at once, without warning of any kind, I found myself wrapped around as it were by a flame-colored cloud. For an instant I thought of fire, some sudden conflagration in the great city; the next, I knew that the light was within myself. Directly afterwards came upon me a sense of exultation, of immense joyousness accompanied or immediately followed by an intellectual illumination quite impossible to describe........Among other things I did not come to believe, I saw and knew that the Cosmos is not dead matter but a living Presence, that the soul of man is immortal, that the universe is so built and ordered that without any peradventure all things work together for the good of each and all, that the foundation principle of the world is what we call love and that the happiness of every one is in the long run absolutely certain." IOW, it's like seeing, in some direct way, that the cosmos is a kind of infinite, super-realistic, mind-boggling play in which all of the actors, as well as the stage and the audience, and the mind and being of the playwright are all a unified whole, and that nothing is what it ordinarily seems to be. A body/mind having this kind of experience cares nothing about the life or death of him/herself, or anything else, because the perfection, vastness, and intricacy of the whole is somehow directly apprehended. In one instant one's entire understanding of reality is forever changed, and it is never forgotten. It is like seeing that something vast and benevolent is in charge of everything--of the play's script--, and that every character in the play is playing her part perfectly in the hands of that master playwright/Presence. One who sees this can totally relax and know that "all is well, and all manner of being will be well, forever and ever, amen." As Bucke noted, "it is quite impossible to describe," but there is no doubt about what is seen. The phrase "perfectly so" points to the underlying perfection of THAT. It makes no logical sense, and it cannot be fathomed by the intellect, but those who see it almost always use the word "perfection" to describe what they saw. Hey, thanks ZD for elucidating "perfectly so" much better than I ever could! I guess I can add my own whimsical definition! Perfectly so- Pointer for Whatever Is. When it is gnossisticly known / awared / grokked that any need to sort out infinity and/or seek the eternal is a mind game, clarity happens, and the pointer is realized---<<<poof>>>. When such mind games persist, suffering happens and is inevitable . The apparent variation of the game is seemingly infinite, but actually boils down to one misconception. I.Can't.Seem.To.Get.It. Back to the drama in the desert! Wahooooooo!
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Sept 19, 2014 17:41:54 GMT -5
To say that this is how the cosmos manifests should not be meant to say that it cannot be otherwise, at least for some individuals, or why should it? There is the story of Milarepa. His father died when he was seven and the family was taken over by his uncle. Uncle and wife didn't treat Milarepa and his mother too well and mother persuaded Milarepa to learn the art of black magic and sorcery to punish uncle. Milarepa did so and eventually killed at least 35 people. He later had remorse for his deeds and sought a teacher vowing to become a Buddha in one life. He found his teacher Marpa. For years Marpa made him jump through a lot of hoops, part of it building and tearing down four different buildings. Milarepa after years came to the point of despair left Marpa to find a different teacher and also became suicidal. Eventually Milarepa went back to Marpa, finished the teaching and became a teacher in the lineage, a very great teacher. So, ZD, say Milarepa comes to you, as a disciple, what do you tell him? You're just a cog in the machinery of the cosmos, it's not good or bad that you killed 35 people, it just happened, nothing to worry about, everything is perfectly so. Let's go have a beer.......?...... sdp Because the universe is manifesting right now via some online bloke named maxdprophet to interject rudely in a convo not having to do with him.... It seems like you, SDP, and Tzu, aren't really getting what ZD is saying here. "Let's go have a beer" may happen, who knows? Perhaps that would make sense given the situation. My guess is that ZD would go all ATA on his a55, Tzu would go all let-go-still-mind, and you would advise some combo of therapy and hardcore training (but really I have no clue). Stop killing peeps would probably be the first thing y'all would say to him. Who knows? The story of Milarepa primarily functions to aid people in buckling down, applying themselves, upping the earnestness and sincerity. It aids in reinforcing a culture of focus on the actual, on still mind, on ______. To say it is all 'perfectly so' does not mean someone doesn't say STOP!!! given a situation where a berobed spiritual dude is about to cut off the head of a journalist. STOP!! is exactly part of the 'perfectly so.' Get it? I understand what ZD is saying, but for me there is a movement to the perfectly so. I guess ZD is saying that since all this is perfectly so, it can't be more perfectly so (or less). But I still ask what the purpose of all this is, even though ZD is saying there isn't a purpose, other than just being perfectly so. Up to a point, I take it as theory that there are different orders of reality, an unseen world behind the visible universe. This world probably doesn't seem too bad, until nasty sh!t happens in your tiny sphere, happens every hour to somebody. So in this present sphere, everything is perfectly so, can't be other than it is, everything happens in the only way it can happen. So I agree with E and ZD, as far as this visible world is. So there is no point to what you think I might advise, some combo of therapy and hardcore training, which I have never suggested. We can't do anything in the sphere of thoughts, emotions or physical actions. But I disagree with E and ZD that nothing can be done. I say one can choose where to place one's attention and/or awareness. This obvious sphere of our universe, the reality of the five senses, things happen in a certain manner, maybe even perfectly so, but theoretically, there is a higher order of reality which we may be able to participate in and live under its influence. The way to some day be able to participate in this (theoretical) higher order of reality, is to learn to live through one's attention and one's awareness, voluntarily. So that's where I part with E and ZD. They say nobody can do anything, and any doing doesn't matter anyway (well....to be fair ZD is on the fence concerning the value of practices). That's OK with me, that's them. I have posted numerous times that one's attention and awareness exist apart from thoughts, feelings and actions (which ego consists of). So the way out of this visible sphere of influence, awareness, is already out, actually comes from this higher order of reality. I have numerous times referred to the use of attention and awareness as interior spiritual practice. And eventually, months, not years or not not ever, you can get a taste of a different order of reality. And then when you live under higher influences, maybe life happens differently in this world. So, here we are............. sdp
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Post by tzujanli on Sept 19, 2014 18:56:39 GMT -5
I'm genuinely curious as to why there seems to be such importance assigned to a subjective belief about the meaning of a word?.. 'perfection' is a meaningless concept, where the idea is dependent on the observer's idea of 'perfection'.. if everything is perfect, what's the point of stating it, and to whom if the perfection belief is companion to a belief that there are no 'persons', only oneness..
Perfection has meaning by comparison to imperfection, if there's no imperfection it's like saying 'the fence is a fence'.. there is the new age woo-woo factor, where it's cool to say profound sounding things like, "it's all perfect", or "it's all oneness", or "there is no you".. but, it's part of a self-referential identification with saying the profoundly cool words..
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Post by silver on Sept 19, 2014 20:22:39 GMT -5
You're right that saying 'perfectly so' in general, in say a day-to-day context would probably be hugely inappropriate, given whatever atrocious thing going on is happening. Let's call that meaning #1. When you converse on this forum are you thinking that it is such an audience? I usually am taking for granted that the vast majority of the readers here are either 'well-versed' or open to it. I include myself as someone of the latter. When I first heard 'perfectly so' it was quite easy and natural to scoff at it. But as I've come to understand the other usage of it -- call it meaning #2 -- I appreciate it. Note this doesn't necessarily mean that I'm now hopelessly corrupted, but I'm also open to that being a possibility. Rest assured, I feel like the meaning #1 is entirely intact in my psyche, and that I am still fully capable of discerning when the proper usage is called for. Max: Your assessment of the language issue is accurate. I started to respond to SDP's post, but got too busy with a construction project to finish it. I could write a pretty funny story about that project but I'll save that for later--just picture 9 men and 9 yards of wetly-pumped concrete standing on a metal deck supported by I-beams 12 feet above a concrete block and steel reinforced basement tornado shelter as the sheer weight of the concrete and men began to reach the limits of what the decking could support--ha ha. AAR, here was the start of that unfinished post: SDP: There are two kinds of realizations. One kind is what arrives "via negativa;" we discover what is NOT so. The discovery that one is NOT what one thought she was is an example of this. The other kind arrives "via positiva," through some faculty of mind through which the cosmos perceives itself directly; the cosmos (personhood is not present when this happens) discovers what IS SO. In both cases the intellect is bypassed, but later becomes informed by what has been seen and realized. What I'm pointing to with the phrase "perfectly so" carries no logical implications concerning how people "should" act; it is a simple acceptance and realization of what is already the case. It is as if we were watching a play together in a theater, and you said to me, "I think it's terrible that one of the actors just murdered another actor; don't you agree?" I would have to respond, "SDP, it's just a play; no one really got murdered. At the end of the play everyone will come out on the stage and take a bow." This is a weak and watered-down version of what is realized and directly perceived "via positiva." It has nothing to do with ideas of any kind. It is as if the universe occasionally perceives the whole of itself in some direct manner that is beyond ordinary human comprehension. Here is part of what Richard Bucke wrote when he tried to describe what happened to him in 1899: "I was in a state of quiet, almost passive enjoyment. All at once, without warning of any kind, I found myself wrapped around as it were by a flame-colored cloud. For an instant I thought of fire, some sudden conflagration in the great city; the next, I knew that the light was within myself. Directly afterwards came upon me a sense of exultation, of immense joyousness accompanied or immediately followed by an intellectual illumination quite impossible to describe........Among other things I did not come to believe, I saw and knew that the Cosmos is not dead matter but a living Presence, that the soul of man is immortal, that the universe is so built and ordered that without any peradventure all things work together for the good of each and all, that the foundation principle of the world is what we call love and that the happiness of every one is in the long run absolutely certain." IOW, it's like seeing, in some direct way, that the cosmos is a kind of infinite, super-realistic, mind-boggling play in which all of the actors, as well as the stage and the audience, and the mind and being of the playwright are all a unified whole, and that nothing is what it ordinarily seems to be. A body/mind having this kind of experience cares nothing about the life or death of him/herself, or anything else, because the perfection, vastness, and intricacy of the whole is somehow directly apprehended. In one instant one's entire understanding of reality is forever changed, and it is never forgotten. It is like seeing that something vast and benevolent is in charge of everything--of the play's script--, and that every character in the play is playing her part perfectly in the hands of that master playwright/Presence. One who sees this can totally relax and know that "all is well, and all manner of being will be well, forever and ever, amen." As Bucke noted, "it is quite impossible to describe," but there is no doubt about what is seen. The phrase "perfectly so" points to the underlying perfection of THAT. It makes no logical sense, and it cannot be fathomed by the intellect, but those who see it almost always use the word "perfection" to describe what they saw. There's so much that has finally made some sense to me, but things come to a screeching halt when peeps say stuff about all this supposed perfection. It's really quite fantastic when anyone anywhere with any sanity to speak of says that THIS here world is 'perfect', up to and including anything as violent, heart-wrenching, etc. and then some, is to be considered some sort of perfection. How is not possible that this Bucke fellow didn't just simply come unglued and totally lose his marbles on that purported CC of his? Maybe it's crazy on the surface, to most folks - and just maybe it's not crazy in that, this phenomenon he experienced was just a mind-bending one, that told him that the world is f.u.'d and you can do nothing to stop it all, so just accept that. This is the perfect answer for those who feel anything, to be able to wash one's hands of any responsibility anyhow, anywhere, anytime. I simply think that some other word or phraseology would be advantageous to more people's understanding of this 'perfection' that's being brought up here. I mean after all - this is 2014.
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Post by someNOTHING! on Sept 19, 2014 20:38:32 GMT -5
I'm genuinely curious as to why there seems to be such importance assigned to a subjective belief about the meaning of a word?.. 'perfection' is a meaningless concept, where the idea is dependent on the observer's idea of 'perfection'.. if everything is perfect, what's the point of stating it, and to whom if the perfection belief is companion to a belief that there are no 'persons', only oneness.. Perfection has meaning by comparison to imperfection, if there's no imperfection it's like saying 'the fence is a fence'.. there is the new age woo-woo factor, where it's cool to say profound sounding things like, "it's all perfect", or "it's all oneness", or "there is no you".. but, it's part of a self-referential identification with saying the profoundly cool words.. Yes, Tzu, you got everybody. Caught'em red handed, ya did. Everyone was caught up in the act of eating the menu, believing the words to be true. It was mass hysteria, I tell ya. Can' hide it now. What WAS the point?! You're exactly right. I should be ashamed. I mean, in the context of peeps communicating, who actually comes to a message board to write anything about anything? OK, apparently, maybe you either you want everyone to shut up, or you just wanna read drivel, which, I guess, wouldn't surprise me. So, I'll put your words to the test to see what happens! Here it goes. <<waiting...>> <<...>> OK, nice round of silence was not all that bad, but I think I'd rather be outside next time. Next stop, the big feelings of talking crazy shait. Here I go. "Everything is perfect." (and it is BTW) OK, there, I said it. OK, now I'll wait for a few seconds for the feeling of being cool and self-referentially identified, as you talked about. (30 seconds) Nope, still hasn't come. I do notice a little about where one might slip into identity though. When you start thinking the thoughts to be true and such, there's a bit of weight welling up in there. That's about where I usually just flick it off the reality suit before I put it on. Maybe you can share something on what it feels like to believe the thoughts, get full on into character, and go unconscious (you can be honest; we're all friends here). We'll carry on with the drivel part of the experiment now. What is is looking through a mind/body that is sitting here at a table with a computer on it, typing away like an idiot (to quote the ever-so-spiritual genius, Andrew). There's a wall in front of the mind/body with a bunch of pictures painted by another mind/body, affectionately respected and loved as this mind/body's wife. This mind/body really digs her and experiences the wonderful detail, dances of hues, and imagery of light and form found in her paintings and general dance in life. Thoughts bubble up in the mind of said body. "How much longer can this mind/body typing this" keeps popping up. Quickly losing interest. Thought happens, "Oh yeah, that's why it's not usually done." <<End of experiment>> Waiting for a few secs for the effect that I'm not really relying on, expecting, or hoping to be roused up. . .<<Thoughts of the Jeopardy theme pops through the head a few times.>> Nope, not interested. Observations from the experiment: Either you're still carrying around that damm cat by the tail, you just love adding to the drama of this board, and/or you really got the hots for sorting out infinity and remaining personally intact. BTW, no person meant to confuse you with all that talk about perfection. Just consciously talkin' in the dream about what is. Let's go have a beer. But, don't bring that SDP character. It's all talkin' stuff about killing 35 people, and I'm heading to the hills manana.
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Post by someNOTHING! on Sept 19, 2014 20:46:07 GMT -5
Max: Your assessment of the language issue is accurate. I started to respond to SDP's post, but got too busy with a construction project to finish it. I could write a pretty funny story about that project but I'll save that for later--just picture 9 men and 9 yards of wetly-pumped concrete standing on a metal deck supported by I-beams 12 feet above a concrete block and steel reinforced basement tornado shelter as the sheer weight of the concrete and men began to reach the limits of what the decking could support--ha ha. AAR, here was the start of that unfinished post: SDP: There are two kinds of realizations. One kind is what arrives "via negativa;" we discover what is NOT so. The discovery that one is NOT what one thought she was is an example of this. The other kind arrives "via positiva," through some faculty of mind through which the cosmos perceives itself directly; the cosmos (personhood is not present when this happens) discovers what IS SO. In both cases the intellect is bypassed, but later becomes informed by what has been seen and realized. What I'm pointing to with the phrase "perfectly so" carries no logical implications concerning how people "should" act; it is a simple acceptance and realization of what is already the case. It is as if we were watching a play together in a theater, and you said to me, "I think it's terrible that one of the actors just murdered another actor; don't you agree?" I would have to respond, "SDP, it's just a play; no one really got murdered. At the end of the play everyone will come out on the stage and take a bow." This is a weak and watered-down version of what is realized and directly perceived "via positiva." It has nothing to do with ideas of any kind. It is as if the universe occasionally perceives the whole of itself in some direct manner that is beyond ordinary human comprehension. Here is part of what Richard Bucke wrote when he tried to describe what happened to him in 1899: "I was in a state of quiet, almost passive enjoyment. All at once, without warning of any kind, I found myself wrapped around as it were by a flame-colored cloud. For an instant I thought of fire, some sudden conflagration in the great city; the next, I knew that the light was within myself. Directly afterwards came upon me a sense of exultation, of immense joyousness accompanied or immediately followed by an intellectual illumination quite impossible to describe........Among other things I did not come to believe, I saw and knew that the Cosmos is not dead matter but a living Presence, that the soul of man is immortal, that the universe is so built and ordered that without any peradventure all things work together for the good of each and all, that the foundation principle of the world is what we call love and that the happiness of every one is in the long run absolutely certain." IOW, it's like seeing, in some direct way, that the cosmos is a kind of infinite, super-realistic, mind-boggling play in which all of the actors, as well as the stage and the audience, and the mind and being of the playwright are all a unified whole, and that nothing is what it ordinarily seems to be. A body/mind having this kind of experience cares nothing about the life or death of him/herself, or anything else, because the perfection, vastness, and intricacy of the whole is somehow directly apprehended. In one instant one's entire understanding of reality is forever changed, and it is never forgotten. It is like seeing that something vast and benevolent is in charge of everything--of the play's script--, and that every character in the play is playing her part perfectly in the hands of that master playwright/Presence. One who sees this can totally relax and know that "all is well, and all manner of being will be well, forever and ever, amen." As Bucke noted, "it is quite impossible to describe," but there is no doubt about what is seen. The phrase "perfectly so" points to the underlying perfection of THAT. It makes no logical sense, and it cannot be fathomed by the intellect, but those who see it almost always use the word "perfection" to describe what they saw. There's so much that has finally made some sense to me, but things come to a screeching halt when peeps say stuff about all this supposed perfection. It's really quite fantastic when anyone anywhere with any sanity to speak of says that THIS here world is 'perfect', up to and including anything as violent, heart-wrenching, etc. and then some, is to be considered some sort of perfection. How is not possible that this Bucke fellow didn't just simply come unglued and totally lose his marbles on that purported CC of his? Maybe it's crazy on the surface, to most folks - and just maybe it's not crazy in that, this phenomenon he experienced was just a mind-bending one, that told him that the world is f.u.'d and you can do nothing to stop it all, so just accept that. This is the perfect answer for those who feel anything, to be able to wash one's hands of any responsibility anyhow, anywhere, anytime. I simply think that some other word or phraseology would be advantageous to more people's understanding of this 'perfection' that's being brought up here. I mean after all - this is 2014. Yes, that is why the teaching is about waking up from the unconscious state. Put aside all your worries and drama about this and that; a few of them might still be there when you look back around anyway! Find Truth. Destroy untruth. Be Truth. Hold your headless shoulders up high!
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Post by someNOTHING! on Sept 19, 2014 20:47:32 GMT -5
Hey, thanks ZD for elucidating "perfectly so" much better than I ever could! I guess I can add my own whimsical definition! Perfectly so- Pointer for Whatever Is. When it is gnossisticly known / awared / grokked that any need to sort out infinity and/or seek the eternal is a mind game, clarity happens, and the pointer is realized---<<<poof>>>. When such mind games persist, suffering happens and is inevitable . The apparent variation of the game is seemingly infinite, but actually boils down to one misconception. I.Can't.Seem.To.Get.It. Back to the drama in the desert! Wahooooooo! Nooow, where does that little rascal go?
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Post by silver on Sept 19, 2014 21:22:36 GMT -5
There's so much that has finally made some sense to me, but things come to a screeching halt when peeps say stuff about all this supposed perfection. It's really quite fantastic when anyone anywhere with any sanity to speak of says that THIS here world is 'perfect', up to and including anything as violent, heart-wrenching, etc. and then some, is to be considered some sort of perfection. How is not possible that this Bucke fellow didn't just simply come unglued and totally lose his marbles on that purported CC of his? Maybe it's crazy on the surface, to most folks - and just maybe it's not crazy in that, this phenomenon he experienced was just a mind-bending one, that told him that the world is f.u.'d and you can do nothing to stop it all, so just accept that. This is the perfect answer for those who feel anything, to be able to wash one's hands of any responsibility anyhow, anywhere, anytime. I simply think that some other word or phraseology would be advantageous to more people's understanding of this 'perfection' that's being brought up here. I mean after all - this is 2014. Yes, that is why the teaching is about waking up from the unconscious state. Put aside all your worries and drama about this and that; a few of them might still be there when you look back around anyway! Find Truth. Destroy untruth. Be Truth. Hold your headless shoulders up high! As much as I now see that there's plenty of good and reasonable stuff about all this non-dual, Buddhist type stuff, there are things that either haven't clicked or never will, because - perchance - there's something a tad off about it. Why not go the whole 9 yards and stay in la la land, or admit that there are imperfections...I mean, if YOU had to personally live in one of the roughest spots, I do believe you'd change your tune. I already believe some of this stuff makes 'perfect' sense, but perfect does not. *shrug*
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