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YES
Jul 27, 2014 7:42:13 GMT -5
Post by tzujanli on Jul 27, 2014 7:42:13 GMT -5
Do you believe everything you read? No. I don't believe a word of your still mind sermons. But, do you believe what you read about determinism?
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YES
Jul 27, 2014 9:22:49 GMT -5
Post by enigma on Jul 27, 2014 9:22:49 GMT -5
Always saying 'yes' literally does mean never saying 'no'. But to sometimes say "no" to something does not equal to not always saying "yes" to 'Everything'. To truely always say "yes" is to say "no" to ever saying "no". EVERY apparent "no" originally 'came from' "yes" and will eventually dissolve back into "yes". This is PRECISELY the reason why there will never be any apparent shortage of "no". Wait....NOW I can see the mental gymnastics!!lol Yes Hehe
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Deleted
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Jul 27, 2014 9:30:32 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2014 9:30:32 GMT -5
No. I don't believe a word of your still mind sermons. But, do you believe what you read about determinism? So far, yes. If anything comes to light that would negate it, I'll change my mind.
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Jul 27, 2014 9:32:57 GMT -5
Post by tzujanli on Jul 27, 2014 9:32:57 GMT -5
But, do you believe what you read about determinism? So far, yes. If anything comes to light that would negate it, I'll change my mind. How will 'you' do that? it's predetermined, by your account, right?
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YES
Jul 27, 2014 9:52:38 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2014 9:52:38 GMT -5
So far, yes. If anything comes to light that would negate it, I'll change my mind. How will 'you' do that? it's predetermined, by your account, right? yes, what you said.
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Jul 27, 2014 11:34:17 GMT -5
Post by laughter on Jul 27, 2014 11:34:17 GMT -5
The absence of volition is not the presence of predetermination. It is an active mind that turns the pointer into a fact about which a conclusion is then drawn based on a logical inference.
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Jul 27, 2014 11:35:22 GMT -5
Post by laughter on Jul 27, 2014 11:35:22 GMT -5
But to sometimes say "no" to something does not equal to not always saying "yes" to 'Everything'. To truely always say "yes" is to say "no" to ever saying "no". EVERY apparent "no" originally 'came from' "yes" and will eventually dissolve back into "yes". This is PRECISELY the reason why there will never be any apparent shortage of "no". Wait....NOW I can see the mental gymnastics!!lol Yes Hehe (** saying "yes!" to a muttley snicker **)
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YES
Jul 27, 2014 11:55:58 GMT -5
Post by enigma on Jul 27, 2014 11:55:58 GMT -5
The absence of volition is not the presence of predetermination. It is an active mind that turns the pointer into a fact about which a conclusion is then drawn based on a logical inference. Yes, I was going to say something similar, and then lost interest. Determinism seems like an okay way of talking about the influence of conditioning, though it leaves out a certain dynamic creative function of Intelligence, which I do not see as determined by conditions. When we conclude that determinism is the same as predetermined, I reject it on the basis that, to me, it implies an intelligence that determines the unfolding of events prior to the unfolding. The whole issue begins with the notion that there is a person who is either in control of events, or is the victim of causes. Without that person notion, the question of determinate or indeterminate doesn't arise.
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Jul 27, 2014 12:00:20 GMT -5
Post by enigma on Jul 27, 2014 12:00:20 GMT -5
(** saying "yes!" to a muttley snicker **) But wait, that means you're saying 'no' to not saying 'yes' to a muttley snicker.
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Jul 27, 2014 13:17:44 GMT -5
Post by tzujanli on Jul 27, 2014 13:17:44 GMT -5
Denial of a the existence of 'persons' does not make it so, it expresses the speaker's belief in that statement..
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Jul 27, 2014 15:29:27 GMT -5
Post by silence on Jul 27, 2014 15:29:27 GMT -5
Always saying 'yes' literally does mean never saying 'no'. But to sometimes say "no" to something does not equal to not always saying "yes" to 'Everything'. To truely always say "yes" is to say "no" to ever saying "no". EVERY apparent "no" originally 'came from' "yes" and will eventually dissolve back into "yes". This is PRECISELY the reason why there will never be any apparent shortage of "no". Wait....NOW I can see the mental gymnastics!! lol Heh, were you looking to have a discussion about acceptance or something along those lines? That might be a more fruitful discussion.
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Post by relinquish on Jul 27, 2014 18:49:11 GMT -5
But to sometimes say "no" to something does not equal to not always saying "yes" to 'Everything'. To truely always say "yes" is to say "no" to ever saying "no". EVERY apparent "no" originally 'came from' "yes" and will eventually dissolve back into "yes". This is PRECISELY the reason why there will never be any apparent shortage of "no". Wait....NOW I can see the mental gymnastics!! lol Heh, were you looking to have a discussion about acceptance or something along those lines? That might be a more fruitful discussion. Well yeah, that's pretty much what I was driving at. I guess I assumed that was obvious. It seems that many peeps have the idea that saying "yes" to 'Everything' (total acceptance) is a direct path to liberation. I'm just throwing my two cents into that idea.
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Jul 27, 2014 19:32:21 GMT -5
Post by laughter on Jul 27, 2014 19:32:21 GMT -5
The absence of volition is not the presence of predetermination. It is an active mind that turns the pointer into a fact about which a conclusion is then drawn based on a logical inference. Yes, I was going to say something similar, and then lost interest. Determinism seems like an okay way of talking about the influence of conditioning, though it leaves out a certain dynamic creative function of Intelligence, which I do not see as determined by conditions. When we conclude that determinism is the same as predetermined, I reject it on the basis that, to me, it implies an intelligence that determines the unfolding of events prior to the unfolding. The whole issue begins with the notion that there is a person who is either in control of events, or is the victim of causes. Without that person notion, the question of determinate or indeterminate doesn't arise. Witnessing the effects of conditioning is a real eye opener, and of course that context is pretty far removed from the pointer of the absence of volition. The study of history can underscore the point you've made in that regard, in the same externalized objective-world sense that the study of science stands as a sort of collective intellectual neti-neti. As we've seen repeatedly in discussion on this forum and others like it, certain ideas about the nature of personhood often evoke negative reactions, which, of course, can inevitably be traced back to conditioning.
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Jul 27, 2014 20:55:28 GMT -5
Post by silence on Jul 27, 2014 20:55:28 GMT -5
Well yeah, that's pretty much what I was driving at. I guess I assumed that was obvious. I was pretty sure I knew what you meant by "saying yes" but other than that, The OP just sort of made my eyebrow raise. It seems that many peeps have the idea that saying "yes" to 'Everything' (total acceptance) is a direct path to liberation. I'm just throwing my two cents into that idea. As is usually the case, cause and effect are habitually confused and so one goes off trying to practice an effect. The same can be said for still mind this and that.
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Jul 28, 2014 2:18:51 GMT -5
Post by enigma on Jul 28, 2014 2:18:51 GMT -5
Well yeah, that's pretty much what I was driving at. I guess I assumed that was obvious. I was pretty sure I knew what you meant by "saying yes" but other than that, The OP just sort of made my eyebrow raise. It seems that many peeps have the idea that saying "yes" to 'Everything' (total acceptance) is a direct path to liberation. I'm just throwing my two cents into that idea. As is usually the case, cause and effect are habitually confused and so one goes off trying to practice an effect. The same can be said for still mind this and that. Yup, acceptance (and still mind) aren't things to do.
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