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Post by Reefs on Jul 22, 2014 11:44:34 GMT -5
"Realization is of the fact that you are not a person. Therefore, it cannot be the duty of the person whose destiny is to disappear. Its destiny is the duty of him who imagines himself to be the person. Find out who he is and the imagined person will dissolve. Freedom is from something. What are you to be free from? Obviously, you must be free from the person; you take yourself to be, for it is the idea you have of yourself that keeps you in bondage."
- Niz
So, do paths and practices create false hope?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2014 12:14:25 GMT -5
"Realization is of the fact that you are not a person. Therefore, it cannot be the duty of the person whose destiny is to disappear. Its destiny is the duty of him who imagines himself to be the person. Find out who he is and the imagined person will dissolve. Freedom is from something. What are you to be free from? Obviously, you must be free from the person; you take yourself to be, for it is the idea you have of yourself that keeps you in bondage." - Niz So, do paths and practices create false hope? And to be clear, it's not the content of the idea, or the particular image you have of yourself, that is keeping you in bondage. It's having an idea of yourself at all. Though an idea is much easier to hang onto if it is rich with details, themes and backstory. I sat on the buddhist path for a while. I'd say the prospect of Nirvana was never something I seriously hoped for at all. I was primarily shooting for relief (from incessant negative thinking). Also there was of course ego stuff wrapped up in there -- be a cool buddhist (political activist/buddhist/athlete). I'd say that mindfulness helped create space for relief and detachment from thinking. I never scored the babes though. It wasn't until I stumbled on this nonduality stuff that the idea of Awakening or Enlightenment or Realization even entered into any consideration at all. I had always thought that stuff was for a teeny subpopulation of very hardworking monks. In the Niz quote above and from what I know of I Am and neti neti, this prospect of Realization does seem like something that is on the table. Is it false hope? Don't know. |
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Post by laughter on Jul 22, 2014 12:35:24 GMT -5
"Realization is of the fact that you are not a person. Therefore, it cannot be the duty of the person whose destiny is to disappear. Its destiny is the duty of him who imagines himself to be the person. Find out who he is and the imagined person will dissolve. Freedom is from something. What are you to be free from? Obviously, you must be free from the person; you take yourself to be, for it is the idea you have of yourself that keeps you in bondage." - Niz So, do paths and practices create false hope? Depends on if the practice is done for a goal .. if the path is imagined to lead anywhere. Seems that they sure certainly could, but that would just be another opportunity to see something (hope), as false.  ... maybe, if a peep is dead-set-ingrained on the idea of their separate peepness then false hope is a step in the right direction. (From Chapter 76 of "I AM THAT", "To Know That You do not Know is True Knowledge")Q: What am I to be earnest about? Niz: Assiduously investigate everything that crosses your field of attention. With practice, the field will broaden and investigation will deepen until they become spontaneous and limitless. Q: Are you not making realization the result of practice? Practice operates within the limitations of physical existence. How can it give birth to the unlimited? Niz: Of course, there can be no causal connection between practice and wisdom. But the obstacles to wisdom are deeply affected by practice. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2014 12:48:45 GMT -5
It sounds like he's saying that practice can change the nature of the obstacles but that the obstacles will still be there. Maybe like making holes in the walls to install stained-glass windows. Still can't see outside though. |
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Post by laughter on Jul 22, 2014 13:13:08 GMT -5
It sounds like he's saying that practice can change the nature of the obstacles but that the obstacles will still be there. Maybe like making holes in the walls to install stained-glass windows. Still can't see outside though. If practices can affect obstacles I'd imagine that it can remove them. Take Byrons "work" for instance. If someone is constantly blaming other peeps and external factors beyond their control for their inner state, then the practice might result in the cessation of a bad habit. Don't have shinola to do with realization though ... just 'cause someone's lost in the blame game doesn't mean that they're not subject to realization, just as they are. The game is an imperfection but the gamer is perfect where they stand. Now it seems that the obstacles would make realization less likely, but the problem with that idea is the logical implication that the absence of the obstacles would make realization more likely. Even if that were objectively and statistically true, it's a mistake to follow that idea down into the bunny hole.  That being said, if someone said that they were interested in seeing the false as false and wanted to know which of: (1) meditation and exercise or (2)eating twinkies and binge-watching the Kardashians .. would help with that, I'd say go with (1). It's a silly hypo though because anyone asking that question would likely already know enough to only do (2) for the contrast of what the obviously false looks and sounds like to begin with. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2014 13:57:50 GMT -5
It sounds like he's saying that practice can change the nature of the obstacles but that the obstacles will still be there. Maybe like making holes in the walls to install stained-glass windows. Still can't see outside though. If practices can affect obstacles I'd imagine that it can remove them. Take Byrons "work" for instance. If someone is constantly blaming other peeps and external factors beyond their control for their inner state, then the practice might result in the cessation of a bad habit. Don't have shinola to do with realization though ... just 'cause someone's lost in the blame game doesn't mean that they're not subject to realization, just as they are. The game is an imperfection but the gamer is perfect where they stand. Now it seems that the obstacles would make realization less likely, but the problem with that idea is the logical implication that the absence of the obstacles would make realization more likely. Even if that were objectively and statistically true, it's a mistake to follow that idea down into the bunny hole. That being said, if someone said that they were interested in seeing the false as false and wanted to know which of: (1) meditation and exercise or (2)eating twinkies and binge-watching the Kardashians .. would help with that, I'd say go with (1). It's a silly hypo though because anyone asking that question would likely already know enough to only do (2) for the contrast of what the obviously false looks and sounds like to begin with. Also the fact remains that anyone I've heard about on the Realization front has also done a TON OF SOMETHING, whether it be brooding or twirling or walking or whatever. Maybe the idea is to fall into something that one can be somewhat maniacal about and then some sort of shift is more likely. Like stacking a bunch of cards on top of each other. |
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Post by justlikeyou on Jul 22, 2014 15:11:12 GMT -5
"Unless you make tremendous efforts, you will not be convinced that effort will take you nowhere." - Niz
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Post by justlikeyou on Jul 22, 2014 15:16:38 GMT -5
Niz: "We know the outer world of sensations and actions, but of our inner world of thoughts and feelings we know very little. The primary purpose of meditation is to become conscious of, and familiar with, our inner life. The ultimate purpose is to reach the source of life and consciousness. - Incidentally, practice of meditation affects deeply our character. - We are slaves to what we do not know; of what we know we are masters. Whatever vice or weakness in ourselves, we discover and understand its causes and its workings, we overcome it by the very knowing; the unconscious dissolves when brought into the conscious. The dissolution of the unconscious releases energy; the mind feels adequate and becomes quiet."
"It is not so much the matter of levels as of gunas (qualities). Meditation is a sattvic (pure, true) activity and aims at complete elimination of tamas (inertia) and rajas (motivity, activity). Pure sattva (harmony) is perfect freedom from sloth and restlessness."
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Post by enigma on Jul 22, 2014 22:19:48 GMT -5
"Realization is of the fact that you are not a person. Therefore, it cannot be the duty of the person whose destiny is to disappear. Its destiny is the duty of him who imagines himself to be the person. Find out who he is and the imagined person will dissolve. Freedom is from something. What are you to be free from? Obviously, you must be free from the person; you take yourself to be, for it is the idea you have of yourself that keeps you in bondage." - Niz So, do paths and practices create false hope? Depends on if the practice is done for a goal .. if the path is imagined to lead anywhere. Seems that they sure certainly could, but that would just be another opportunity to see something (hope), as false. ... maybe, if a peep is dead-set-ingrained on the idea of their separate peepness then false hope is a step in the right direction. (From Chapter 76 of "I AM THAT", "To Know That You do not Know is True Knowledge")Q: What am I to be earnest about? Niz: Assiduously investigate everything that crosses your field of attention. With practice, the field will broaden and investigation will deepen until they become spontaneous and limitless. Q: Are you not making realization the result of practice? Practice operates within the limitations of physical existence. How can it give birth to the unlimited? Niz: Of course, there can be no causal connection between practice and wisdom. But the obstacles to wisdom are deeply affected by practice. That's the key distinction. A practice motivated and directed by mind, as all practices are, cannot be the cause of the sunlight that does not enter the cave, but it can be effective in removing the boulders that block it. One need not cause the sun to shine, as it is always shining. One need not cause the truth to appear in the form of realization, but merely cease turning away from it. This turning away is in the domain of mind. Using and involving mind in search for that which is prior to mind is not the contradiction. The dilemma is that the reason for seeking must necessarily be false. The truth is never sought by that which is false, which is why accidents are important. |
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Post by laughter on Jul 22, 2014 22:23:06 GMT -5
Depends on if the practice is done for a goal .. if the path is imagined to lead anywhere. Seems that they sure certainly could, but that would just be another opportunity to see something (hope), as false. ... maybe, if a peep is dead-set-ingrained on the idea of their separate peepness then false hope is a step in the right direction. That's the key distinction. A practice motivated and directed by mind, as all practices are, cannot be the cause of the sunlight that does not enter the cave, but it can be effective in removing the boulders that block it. One need not cause the sun to shine, as it is always shining. One need not cause the truth to appear in the form of realization, but merely cease turning away from it. This turning away is in the domain of mind. Using and involving mind in search for that which is prior to mind is not the contradiction. The dilemma is that the reason for seeking must necessarily be false. The truth is never sought by that which is false, which is why accidents are important. nice.  |
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Post by enigma on Jul 22, 2014 22:47:19 GMT -5
It sounds like he's saying that practice can change the nature of the obstacles but that the obstacles will still be there. Maybe like making holes in the walls to install stained-glass windows. Still can't see outside though. I don't think he's saying that. That which is seeing is already outside. As such, where you direct your attention is critical. |
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Post by enigma on Jul 22, 2014 23:01:04 GMT -5
If practices can affect obstacles I'd imagine that it can remove them. Take Byrons "work" for instance. If someone is constantly blaming other peeps and external factors beyond their control for their inner state, then the practice might result in the cessation of a bad habit. Don't have shinola to do with realization though ... just 'cause someone's lost in the blame game doesn't mean that they're not subject to realization, just as they are. The game is an imperfection but the gamer is perfect where they stand. Now it seems that the obstacles would make realization less likely, but the problem with that idea is the logical implication that the absence of the obstacles would make realization more likely. Even if that were objectively and statistically true, it's a mistake to follow that idea down into the bunny hole. That being said, if someone said that they were interested in seeing the false as false and wanted to know which of: (1) meditation and exercise or (2)eating twinkies and binge-watching the Kardashians .. would help with that, I'd say go with (1). It's a silly hypo though because anyone asking that question would likely already know enough to only do (2) for the contrast of what the obviously false looks and sounds like to begin with. Also the fact remains that anyone I've heard about on the Realization front has also done a TON OF SOMETHING, whether it be brooding or twirling or walking or whatever. Maybe the idea is to fall into something that one can be somewhat maniacal about and then some sort of shift is more likely. Like stacking a bunch of cards on top of each other. The implication is sincerity, determination, earnestness, devotion, willingness. The doing is of little consequence, but of course if there is a fire, something is going to get burned. If you observe the fire and conclude that the trick is to burn something, you'll be missing the point. |
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Post by enigma on Jul 22, 2014 23:05:20 GMT -5
Niz: "We know the outer world of sensations and actions, but of our inner world of thoughts and feelings we know very little. The primary purpose of meditation is to become conscious of, and familiar with, our inner life. The ultimate purpose is to reach the source of life and consciousness. - Incidentally, practice of meditation affects deeply our character. - We are slaves to what we do not know; of what we know we are masters. Whatever vice or weakness in ourselves, we discover and understand its causes and its workings, we overcome it by the very knowing; the unconscious dissolves when brought into the conscious. The dissolution of the unconscious releases energy; the mind feels adequate and becomes quiet.""It is not so much the matter of levels as of gunas (qualities). Meditation is a sattvic (pure, true) activity and aims at complete elimination of tamas (inertia) and rajas (motivity, activity). Pure sattva (harmony) is perfect freedom from sloth and restlessness." This is what it means to become conscious or to live consciously or to be awake within the dream. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2014 0:38:03 GMT -5
"Realization is of the fact that you are not a person. Therefore, it cannot be the duty of the person whose destiny is to disappear. Its destiny is the duty of him who imagines himself to be the person. Find out who he is and the imagined person will dissolve. Freedom is from something. What are you to be free from? Obviously, you must be free from the person; you take yourself to be, for it is the idea you have of yourself that keeps you in bondage." - Niz So, do paths and practices create false hope? one comes to realize that they are creative by nature. Having made-it-up and realized un-sustainability, the meaning of words/thoughts... like "what goes up gotta come down" awakens that thought-self to the fact that they are departing from somewhere deep within themselves. Sooner or later, due to this silly yet useful practice (which an observer can train themselves to do) one gets NOT to rise up but stay at home, where they were when they was born. Thus, all numbers add up to zero.  |
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Post by tenka on Jul 23, 2014 2:36:22 GMT -5
One doesn't have a choice in being in awareness of what they are or what they think they are whether it be a person or a spirit being or such likes .
All experiential awareness of a self are likened to paths that entertain self awareness in reflection of something . The mind is the medium for self to be .
Is there false hope for self within practice of something? Depends on one's perspective . From one perspective there is always hope and there are always positives from such experiential practices .
For one that entertains meditation they can meditate for 40 years and still not perceive self beyond the physical .
Is meditation therefore hopelessly leading one down a dead end? For another meditation opens the door beyond self . So what is the key? Meditation? Practice? Paths? Or something else .
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... maybe, if a peep is dead-set-ingrained on the idea of their separate peepness then false hope is a step in the right direction. 
