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Post by japhy on Jul 20, 2014 2:36:08 GMT -5
Why do you 'want to provoke', do you believe your understanding is superior to the woman's? why 'provoke', when a good discussion where both participants are open to the discussion's potential to reveal more than either are currently aware of dissolves the conflict inherent in the 'provoking'? Presuming the right to provoke others, or attending the desire to provoke others, is a signature of the provocateur's attachment to their self-image.. there are those, though, that will invoke their belief that there is no 'person' or 'self' or 'separate' individual, so it's okay to provoke the 'non-person' or 'non-self' or non-individual, but.. the provocation intended to change the 'other' person's perspective reveals the provocateur's actual understanding of the happening, the rest is theater for their own amusement.. The provocation consisted of stating an other interpretation of her experience. She once again repeated her own interpretation and the conversation went on to some other matters. As far as I can tell, she did not seem to feel attacked. Maybe my usage of the word "provoke" is misleading. From my perspective conflict on the relative scale seems inevitable and healthy. A lot of my problems seem indeed to come from trying to avoid conflict. I am not sure if I really wanted to change her. But I have the theory that there is the movment to more stable positions in live. It can be a good thing to expose others to your positions. It might shake something loose, if their position is not as stable as they thought. If it is stable, fine.
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Post by sunshine on Aug 3, 2014 12:12:29 GMT -5
:)Hi ZD i was a certified schizofrenic ´´with papers to prove it´´ (hospital records if they stiil exist,part of my story was published in a dutch publication for the ´´clients ´´ union´´ (of mental hospitals.) 1977ish-1985 was the worst time. started a book about it because it seems to be much rarer than i thought,psychiatry knows nothing...5) the Voices are often of mixed character...i had to learn to discern between the good ones and the evil ones...there are entities out there thsat just like to play games..they use ones fears mostly to gain a hold on one... 9) a spiritual healer cured me ...well he stopped the ´´incurable´´ psychosis in a matter of minutes and gave me ´´tools´´to deal with it if it recurred... this is a vast subject--one needs a ´´system´´ to get a grip on these things, and since the man who healed me was a student of Sri Aurobindo, i stuck with that system... (the adventure of consciousness-satprem--they describe much of what you mention,sometimes in more detail, sometimes more abstractly-- and more) 5)i hear voices very regularly and they are almost always correct...also i feel pain in my body,f.i. on places where i had a broken arm or leg--to warn me of an action that will be detrimental in relation to my well being or spiritual progress..this goes from simple things like wanting to make a phonecall that will bot result in talking to the person i want--a painsignal in the wrist--- to warning me not to be angry with somebody--as it would be unjust or the vibe is simply poisonous..---etc etc etc -- they are most of the time,if not always, correct---i never kept a log... currently i am going through an experiment of trying to ignore these warnings with pure attention... not to buy that specific e-reader!!!--because it turns out pdf files are very difficult to read on them...(last week---i could return it with full refund)--so... what seems to happen then is that my faulty action can somehow be redeemed--as long as i ignore the warning with blank awareness 9)i have seen a deep cut in my thumb,from a stanley knife, heal within a second.A wave of love around that wound. 10) i saw an object disappear into nowhere..i was accidentally going to step on it after i dropped it , nd it disappeared.A funny feeling, like a ´´chuckle´´ accompanied it.(more in a later post) Those were not hallucinations, i know very well what hallucinations are.(and i was a >Psychiatric nurse for 1 year,in training...until i found out that they know nothing) 9)at the moment as we speak, i have an infection in my mouth, a toothache that shoukd hurt like hell...but it feels pleasurable 9)the healing of a small wound happened again about one year ago. 11) telepathy---i can ´´know´´ other people by just ´´tuning into them´´ (ever done the silva method? they show that everybody has telepathic capacities ,with a not good money back garantee.) (it is called ´´knowledge by identity´´) i tested this during many years,give me a proper scientific setting and i´´ll be interested to do some tests...there is no wall between me and others...luckily i only experience things that have meaning either for myself or the other person. This has probably to do with my ´´belief´´...the system i adhere to... i like this particular system because it is all embracing---the energies that block the experience of the totality are from the lower vital area(lower chakra´s--a notoriously difficult area to clean up--hence why most disciplines want to avoid it or even declare everything as an illusion...easy cop out IMO.) the guy who healed me had achieved mastery over these area´s and once you master a vibration in yourself you master it everywhere. this is also what Masters do...or guru´s---and there are of course infinite levels of Mastery...they can thus give an experience to a student...(f.i papaji-´´show me god´´clip on youtube) i see on a daily basis, when i am awake, if i shift focus a bit, the ´´light´´..i call it the Transcendent. At times it enters the heart, (it cleared my foreheadchackra--hence the clairvoyancy) it is a descending force---a new development for me... this is the result of a steady yoga practice...but i do not meditate...i just tune into higher vibration--literature(mantric poetry) or focus on a person with a higher mastery / vibration than me...and be here now...and i make paintings... i looked at Mooji on youtube and immediately felt what he was about...(painter btw, like me--resonance)Papaji--same thing-- A Cohen---fraud-probably posessed--doesnt know it himself --jed mckenna--intuition makes him rich, playing on american ego´s---lol---´´i am the best´´ lol etc.etc. i may edit this post later on...gotto reflect --i just saw the thread and two pages are do-able,to read... can not go into to all threads...i dont read everything here on STF...only bits here and there CC ---yes there are countless variations i believe,it is not so easy to categorise...all these advaita teachers (Nirvana, not CC)even have different teachings...Mooji now started with Karma Yoga...he is distinctly different from Nisagardatta,f.i. , because he did prayer and meditation, and believed in a God of love... before he went free...Sri Aurobindo points this out very well... everybody has to find his own way in this jungle, and that is what i like about Sri Aurobindo...the quest for MASTERY, and the freedom to follow your own path...but do not get stuck in one particular experience--always move on..there is always more and further...there is no ´´done´´. seeya Sunshine sorry i am not very helpful with the ´´list´´--feel free to categorise
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Post by sunshine on Aug 3, 2014 13:26:45 GMT -5
oh...yeah i saw my dead neighbour an hour or so after he died, he asked me to tell his wife that he was allright....he was bursting with joy...and light...i only saw the upper part of his body...on the funeral(his own...) he wass joking with me...his wife : oh yeah..that is just like him... a few days later the lower part of him tried to enter me and partly succeeded...i suddenly felt madly attracted to the widow...i called in help from an´´angel´´ (which i did not see) (just a higher vibration...we see what we believe...some will just see colors or light) and later saw that that energy had gone into their rottweiler... etc etc etc...to me this kind of things have become ´´normal´´ but it isnt always easy ´cause there are very few folk here that can relate to this...so i keep silent about it...i know at some point it will result in something that can be of help to others, but i havent got there yet...some folk here at least take me seriously--but then the need for that is just another small vital entity that wants satisfaction...and i can walk away from this place anytime...if i think i can be of some help i try...without expecting anything...
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Post by silver on Aug 3, 2014 13:36:47 GMT -5
oh...yeah i saw my dead neighbour an hour or so after he died, he asked me to tell his wife that he was allright....he was bursting with joy...and light...i only saw the upper part of his body...on the funeral(his own...) he wass joking with me...his wife : oh yeah..that is just like him... a few days later the lower part of him tried to enter me and partly succeeded...i suddenly felt madly attracted to the widow...i called in help from an´´angel´´ (which i did not see) (just a higher vibration...we see what we believe...some will just see colors or light) and later saw that that energy had gone into their rottweiler... etc etc etc...to me this kind of things have become ´´normal´´ but it isnt always easy ´cause there are very few folk here that can relate to this...so i keep silent about it...i know at some point it will result in something that can be of help to others, but i havent got there yet...some folk here at least take me seriously--but then the need for that is just another small vital entity that wants satisfaction...and i can walk away from this place anytime...if i think i can be of some help i try...without expecting anything... I think in the Bible somewhere, it says that some people entertain angels unaware that they are doing so, and I think that pretty much says all about you (and plenty of others, natch). I find what you bring wildly entertaining and fascinating. I had a cyber friend from another forum where we talked about and even exchanged healing gem stones one time, and she was quite the delightful character - big time.....so much so, that one British gentleman commented that reading her stuff was a barking mad experience! *snicker* I'll never forget that phraseology, barking mad! Heh. The 'connections' that some people make are totally impossible to others, but there we have it! No one can prove anyone else 'wrong' and in the end, does it even matter at all?!
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Post by sunshine on Aug 5, 2014 6:16:29 GMT -5
9) instant healing of physical wound
instant healing of ´´incurable´´ psychosis
10) telekinesis
in my case a small object that simply disappeared into thin air (it was a small sculpture of silverwire which i had just made--it was an exact copy of one i had given as a present to the man who had healed my schizofrenia in a matter of minutes...and symbolised his initials--he liked it--it dropped out of my hand onto the floor, but my accidental stepping on it somehow never happened--it had disappeared)
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Post by japhy on Aug 19, 2014 12:32:47 GMT -5
11) Eureka effect: Effect of suddenly understanding an previously incoprehensible problem.
Like flow or relative samadhi this is a very common human experience, but it is always a special moment for me. It is the most satisfacory experience which I have ever had as an result of intelectual study. Prior to the experience all the necessary data has been collected, there only remains abstract concentration on the problem itself. With intensifying concentration tension is created, which I often experience as need for movement. Then understanding happens and tension relieves.
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Post by quinn on Aug 21, 2014 8:58:04 GMT -5
Hey there ZD... I've had a few uncommon experiences. The first was an out of body experience. It occurred at around age 20 and was the direct result of believing myself to be about to die (I was being abducted and raped at knife-point at the time). "I" left my body and a translucent version of me sat up in a tree, observing everything. The experience of it was incredibly real and I still see it in detail so many years later, right down to the sense "I" (in the tree) had of a kind of dispassionate sadness, but no real worry or fear. At first, I didn't question what had happened, and it shook my sense of who I 'really' am. But eventually, reason overtook and I decided it was a psychological reaction to an intense fear of death/torture. In other words, I decided I had imagined it. I have no corroboration that it was anything else (like seeing something I could not have otherwise seen). Only on reading others' OOB experiences did I begin to question my reasoned conclusion. But either way, I do believe it opened up the possibility that the material world is not all it seems. The second was a 'visitation' from a cousin of mine who died one night of cancer (that last I knew he was in remission). On that night, I was spoken to (in my head) in a most extraordinary way. The voice was not like any other thought that goes on in the head and when it spoke, there was a powerful silence all around the words. He said, "I'm OK, I'm OK.". I had no idea what it was about and fell asleep. An hour later I got the call that he had died and somehow knew that's who just spoken to me. Years later, I told the story to his brother and he said, "I have chills. If you asked him how he was doing, he'd always say - I'm ok, I'm ok." Neither one of these was during a time when I was pursuing spirituality or had any practices. Both were times of intense stress. The last was last fall at a silent retreat. I don't know how to classify it in one of your categories - maybe CC. I had just finished sitting with a cup of coffee and writing in a journal. As I wrote the last word and stood up to walk to satsang, something opened up. (This is all very hard to describe!) The sensation was of being poured into - like a tremendous rushing waterfall - with energy and blinding light and intense joy. I don't believe I kept walking - not sure - and I don't know how much time elapsed. Not much since I wasn't late for satsang. The sensation was so intense that I had the thought, "I can't function like this." and immediately it stopped. Totally. But something remained, because I walked a little further and became aware of this scraggly little tree and burst into tears at the sight of how beautiful it's scragglieness was. Something has still remained. And again, like with the others, it was an experiential understanding that what I think of as reality is not as solid as I once believed.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2014 12:27:15 GMT -5
nice post Ms Q
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Post by quinn on Aug 21, 2014 13:31:54 GMT -5
nice post Ms Q Thank you kindly, farmer-man.
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Post by zendancer on Aug 21, 2014 17:17:23 GMT -5
Hey there ZD... I've had a few uncommon experiences. The first was an out of body experience. It occurred at around age 20 and was the direct result of believing myself to be about to die (I was being abducted and raped at knife-point at the time). "I" left my body and a translucent version of me sat up in a tree, observing everything. The experience of it was incredibly real and I still see it in detail so many years later, right down to the sense "I" (in the tree) had of a kind of dispassionate sadness, but no real worry or fear. At first, I didn't question what had happened, and it shook my sense of who I 'really' am. But eventually, reason overtook and I decided it was a psychological reaction to an intense fear of death/torture. In other words, I decided I had imagined it. I have no corroboration that it was anything else (like seeing something I could not have otherwise seen). Only on reading others' OOB experiences did I begin to question my reasoned conclusion. But either way, I do believe it opened up the possibility that the material world is not all it seems. The second was a 'visitation' from a cousin of mine who died one night of cancer (that last I knew he was in remission). On that night, I was spoken to (in my head) in a most extraordinary way. The voice was not like any other thought that goes on in the head and when it spoke, there was a powerful silence all around the words. He said, "I'm OK, I'm OK.". I had no idea what it was about and fell asleep. An hour later I got the call that he had died and somehow knew that's who just spoken to me. Years later, I told the story to his brother and he said, "I have chills. If you asked him how he was doing, he'd always say - I'm ok, I'm ok." Neither one of these was during a time when I was pursuing spirituality or had any practices. Both were times of intense stress. The last was last fall at a silent retreat. I don't know how to classify it in one of your categories - maybe CC. I had just finished sitting with a cup of coffee and writing in a journal. As I wrote the last word and stood up to walk to satsang, something opened up. (This is all very hard to describe!) The sensation was of being poured into - like a tremendous rushing waterfall - with energy and blinding light and intense joy. I don't believe I kept walking - not sure - and I don't know how much time elapsed. Not much since I wasn't late for satsang. The sensation was so intense that I had the thought, "I can't function like this." and immediately it stopped. Totally. But something remained, because I walked a little further and became aware of this scraggly little tree and burst into tears at the sight of how beautiful it's scragglieness was. Something has still remained. And again, like with the others, it was an experiential understanding that what I think of as reality is not as solid as I once believed. Q: Those are fascinating stories to which I can relate. I once had an OOB experience in which awareness was above and in front of the body's head--in mid-air-- looking at the world in the same way as usual except not from behind the eyes or inside a body. The visitation experience you mentioned is what I would call "a non-locality" event." Carol and I have both had that kind of experience. Many people "in extremis" (on the verge of almost certain death) have heard a voice that said, in essence, "Nope. You're going to survive all of this." I've read lots of mountain-climbing epics, and this sort of thing is often described. Several climbers have clearly had CC experiences, which were probably precipitated by intense prolonged ATA and physical exhaustion. I think it was Terray, the French climber, who fell into a state of bliss near the summit of the first 8000 meter mountain to be climbed. As I remember it, his climbing partners were not able to shake him out of his blissful state despite facing almost certain death from freezing. Experiences such as the one which occurred during your retreat are quite common, and are probably also in the realm of CC experiences. On a silent retreat there is intense sustained ATA and very little reflective thought, so the intellectual circuit of mind sometimes gets bypassed (almost as if a switch had been thrown), and one falls into a state of direct perception. Sometimes this feels as if the bottom has fallen out of the mind, and everything suddenly becomes quite simple, obvious, and poignantly beautiful. In one of his books (perhaps "Crack in the Cosmic Egg") Chilton Pearce told a story similar to your first one. After a public talk, a woman came forward and told him that she had been abducted by two men. Thinking that she was about to be raped and killed, she relaxed and "gave up." When she let go of her life, so to speak, she suddenly felt extreme compassion for the two men, and spoke to them as if she were their mother. She told them with deep sincerity that she loved them. This response instantly unnerved the two men, and they began to beg her for forgiveness for what they had done and were about to do. They let her go and she walked off almost in a trance state. Pearce gave that woman's response as an example of "a crack in the cosmic egg"--a crack in the usual sense of the way we interact with reality. It reminds me of a famous story of a Zen Master who was about to be killed by two samurai in Japan. When he showed no fear of death, and looked utterly unconcerned, the two men lost all interest in killing him. Later, one of the local monks who had run off when the samurai appeared, asked the ZM what had happened. The ZM said, "I don't know. I simply put my attention elsewhere for a while, and later when I looked around, I discovered that the two men had left."
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Post by quinn on Aug 21, 2014 19:37:41 GMT -5
Q: Those are fascinating stories to which I can relate. I once had an OOB experience in which awareness was above and in front of the body's head--in mid-air-- looking at the world in the same way as usual except not from behind the eyes or inside a body. The visitation experience you mentioned is what I would call "a non-locality" event." Carol and I have both had that kind of experience. Many people "in extremis" (on the verge of almost certain death) have heard a voice that said, in essence, "Nope. You're going to survive all of this." I've read lots of mountain-climbing epics, and this sort of thing is often described. Several climbers have clearly had CC experiences, which were probably precipitated by intense prolonged ATA and physical exhaustion. I think it was Terray, the French climber, who fell into a state of bliss near the summit of the first 8000 meter mountain to be climbed. As I remember it, his climbing partners were not able to shake him out of his blissful state despite facing almost certain death from freezing. Experiences such as the one which occurred during your retreat are quite common, and are probably also in the realm of CC experiences. On a silent retreat there is intense sustained ATA and very little reflective thought, so the intellectual circuit of mind sometimes gets bypassed (almost as if a switch had been thrown), and one falls into a state of direct perception. Sometimes this feels as if the bottom has fallen out of the mind, and everything suddenly becomes quite simple, obvious, and poignantly beautiful. In one of his books (perhaps "Crack in the Cosmic Egg") Chilton Pearce told a story similar to your first one. After a public talk, a woman came forward and told him that she had been abducted by two men. Thinking that she was about to be raped and killed, she relaxed and "gave up." When she let go of her life, so to speak, she suddenly felt extreme compassion for the two men, and spoke to them as if she were their mother. She told them with deep sincerity that she loved them. This response instantly unnerved the two men, and they began to beg her for forgiveness for what they had done and were about to do. They let her go and she walked off almost in a trance state. Pearce gave that woman's response as an example of "a crack in the cosmic egg"--a crack in the usual sense of the way we interact with reality. It reminds me of a famous story of a Zen Master who was about to be killed by two samurai in Japan. When he showed no fear of death, and looked utterly unconcerned, the two men lost all interest in killing him. Later, one of the local monks who had run off when the samurai appeared, asked the ZM what had happened. The ZM said, "I don't know. I simply put my attention elsewhere for a while, and later when I looked around, I discovered that the two men had left." Nice to be able to share those experiences with people who understand. They all actually felt more real than normal reality.
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Post by seaside on Aug 21, 2014 20:20:27 GMT -5
I only know myself as a human entity; the scene, so to speak, of thoughts and affections; and am sensible of a certain doubleness by which I can stand as remote from myself as from another. However intense my experience, I am conscious of the presence of a part of me, which, as it were, is not a part of me, but spectator, sharing no experience, but taking note of it, and that is no more I than it is you. By a conscious effort of the mind we can stand aloof from actions and their consequences; and all things, good and bad, go by us like a torrent.
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Post by justlikeyou on Aug 21, 2014 20:27:43 GMT -5
It reminds me of a famous story of a Zen Master who was about to be killed by two samurai in Japan. When he showed no fear of death, and looked utterly unconcerned, the two men lost all interest in killing him. In the early days of the Iraqi war a small group of US contractors were taken hostage. In a later video of the hostages released to the media, one particular hostage stood out for his calm and complete lack of concern about the situation, while the other hostages were clearly worried. It turns out that in the end all of the hostages were killed...but one. Inexplicably, the captors released the same unconcerned hostage completely unharmed. I sometimes tell the occasional lady that if she were ever put in a position such as Quinn described, that if she were to have an attitude of calm, unconcern about it, she would likely disarm her attacker as a result. I've gotten some interesting looks along the way with that suggestion. But there is definitely something to be said about putting up emotional resistance to dangerous situations and empowering that danger, whereas non-resistence seems to have the effect of minimizing or dissolving danger. I first learned about this in my early twenties when someone much bigger and stronger came to harm me at my house and intuitively dealing with it without anger or upset. I watched in complete surprise and gratefulness when he began to literally melt and fall into my couch before my eyes, drained of ability and, as they say, dazed and confused. He too kept apologizing. I ended up making him a cup of coffee and giving him a ride home. Never saw him again after that.
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Post by silver on Aug 22, 2014 5:27:53 GMT -5
I only know myself as a human entity; the scene, so to speak, of thoughts and affections; and am sensible of a certain doubleness by which I can stand as remote from myself as from another. However intense my experience, I am conscious of the presence of a part of me, which, as it were, is not a part of me, but spectator, sharing no experience, but taking note of it, and that is no more I than it is you. By a conscious effort of the mind we can stand aloof from actions and their consequences; and all things, good and bad, go by us like a torrent. Nice tidbit, seaside.......I, too, have had those kind of experiences, plus the OOBE type. I really like the way you expressed it in the last sentence, "By a conscious effort of the mind we can stand aloof from actions and their consequences; and all things, good and bad, go by us like a torrent," that was beautifully poetic.
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Post by sunshine on Aug 22, 2014 5:38:03 GMT -5
when i was about 18 years old, i came home from work early one friday afternoon,.My boss had given me a bottle of sherry and two glasses as a thank you for a job well done.
I did not drink alcohol in those days, did not smoke, and had begun doing hatha yoga excercises...which i found in a very big book with large black and white photos .I was an absolute beginner and was more curious than really convinced i could ever learn these impossible positions.I admired the man on the photo´s, he was definately an accomplished hatha yogi, as far as i could tell.
So i sat down on the couch, the bottle and the two glasses on the coffeetable in front of me.As i was going through the pages of the book,looking at the photos, a question arose...´´what is alcohol?´´
of course i had drunk alcohol when i was younger, in my teens and decided i did not like it very much, at least i never got totally drunk again after one time when i found the missing parts of my moped strung along the road home, and had fallen asleep in the middle of my mother´s flowerbed.
i clearly formulated the question in my head, and let go of it, not knowing i was doing anything specific.I then drank two glasses of sherry, a small amount, sherry glasses can not contain much fluid, at least these could not.
I was tired, and decided to take a nap...my roommates (housemates...we lived in a squat) would come home in a few hours, so i could sleep undisturbed,i had already forgotten about my question.
the bed was in a kind of cupboard, old style dutch , with 2 doors and a matrass on the floor...after half an hour or so, something caught my attention...something was moving into the room, i could see it through the small opening of the ´´cupboard´´ doors.
I focused and saw a moving, black carpet slowly coming towards me, and when i looked closer, i saw the carpet consisted of tens of thousands of very small spiderlike insects...they engulfed the floor and were soon going to reach my bed...
At that point i realised that i was hallucinating, and tried to snap out of it..to no avail..on the contrary, i got gripped with fear, a panic that completely paralysed me...the ´´carpet´´ entered the cupboard and started crawling across the bedcovers.I could clearly distinguish small insects...millions of them, the whole floor in the other room was now covered by them...
I do not know how long this lasted, at some point i heard noises and one of my housemates had come home and was in the adjacent room, the door of which was slightly open(the bugs had come in through there)
I tried to yell, make some kind of noise--it was impossible, no sound came out of my throat...i could not move.
i do not recall what happened next, i do not recall feeling them actually on my face.I may have passed out (probable) and when i woke up again, they were gone.My friend had not noticed anything strange.
i never saw pink elephants, and the experience never repeated itself, though i did get drunk a few times in my life after that.
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