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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2014 14:57:22 GMT -5
How does self improvement fit in with non duality? (that sounds like an oxymoron to me)
One (supposed) problem after another. Then some (supposed) remedy, after another.
Isn't that just swapping one story (guy with a problem needing fixed) with another story (guy who solved problem).
Rinse and repeat.
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Post by laughter on Feb 22, 2014 15:14:11 GMT -5
(** consults personal improvement mentation plan **)
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Post by andrew on Feb 22, 2014 15:17:35 GMT -5
Self improvement is often about releasing conditioned limiting beliefs, authenticity, unconditional love, and realizing True Self.
Non duality is about releasing conditioned limiting beliefs, unconditional love, and realizing Self/No-Self.
Its 2 different models/philosophies both pointing away from conditioning and towards the same 'thing' with slightly different coding and approach. One seemingly big difference is that self-improvement is about 'becoming' whereas non-duality is about 'being'. However, 'ceaseless becoming' and 'being' are the same thing in the final analysis, in the same way that emptiness is form, and form is emptiness.
I'm a big fan of Jesus teachings, and I think he's a great example of a non-dualist and a self-improver. Its the middle road I resonate most with, though part of that middle road is leaving space for the extremes (for example, neo-advaita).
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Post by silver on Feb 22, 2014 15:30:01 GMT -5
How does self improvement fit in with non duality? (that sounds like an oxymoron to me) One (supposed) problem after another. Then some (supposed) remedy, after another. Isn't that just swapping one story (guy with a problem needing fixed) with another story (guy who solved problem). Rinse and repeat. Well - if one has this non-duality gig down pat, I suppose there's no need.
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Post by laughter on Feb 22, 2014 15:31:49 GMT -5
How does self improvement fit in with non duality? (that sounds like an oxymoron to me) One (supposed) problem after another. Then some (supposed) remedy, after another. Isn't that just swapping one story (guy with a problem needing fixed) with another story (guy who solved problem). Rinse and repeat. Well - if one has this non-duality gig down pat, I suppose there's no need. Canardmeme alert.
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Post by silver on Feb 22, 2014 15:35:38 GMT -5
Well - if one has this non-duality gig down pat, I suppose there's no need. Canardmeme alert. I had to look up canard.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2014 16:04:05 GMT -5
Self improvement is often about releasing conditioned limiting beliefs, authenticity, unconditional love, and realizing True Self. Non duality is about releasing conditioned limiting beliefs, unconditional love, and realizing Self/No-Self. Its 2 different models/philosophies both pointing away from conditioning and towards the same 'thing' with slightly different coding and approach. One seemingly big difference is that self-improvement is about 'becoming' whereas non-duality is about 'being'. However, 'ceaseless becoming' and 'being' are the same thing in the final analysis, in the same way that emptiness is form, and form is emptiness. I'm a big fan of Jesus teachings, and I think he's a great example of a non-dualist and a self-improver. Its the middle road I resonate most with, though part of that middle road is leaving space for the extremes (for example, neo-advaita). It seems like it comes down to the case of mistaken identity between 'Who you think you are' and 'Who you really are'. The "think you are" dude wants to release stuff, etc. Do you think the "Really are" aspect needs to release anything, has any problems, needs any improvement?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2014 16:05:24 GMT -5
How does self improvement fit in with non duality? (that sounds like an oxymoron to me) One (supposed) problem after another. Then some (supposed) remedy, after another. Isn't that just swapping one story ( guy with a problem needing fixed) with another story ( guy who solved problem). Rinse and repeat. Well - if one has this non-duality gig down pat, I suppose there's no need. and gals too!
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Post by zendancer on Feb 22, 2014 16:45:13 GMT -5
Self improvement is often about releasing conditioned limiting beliefs, authenticity, unconditional love, and realizing True Self. Non duality is about releasing conditioned limiting beliefs, unconditional love, and realizing Self/No-Self. Its 2 different models/philosophies both pointing away from conditioning and towards the same 'thing' with slightly different coding and approach. One seemingly big difference is that self-improvement is about 'becoming' whereas non-duality is about 'being'. However, 'ceaseless becoming' and 'being' are the same thing in the final analysis, in the same way that emptiness is form, and form is emptiness. I'm a big fan of Jesus teachings, and I think he's a great example of a non-dualist and a self-improver. Its the middle road I resonate most with, though part of that middle road is leaving space for the extremes (for example, neo-advaita). It seems like it comes down to the case of mistaken identity between 'Who you think you are' and 'Who you really are'. The "think you are" dude wants to release stuff, etc. Do you think the "Really are" aspect needs to release anything, has any problems, needs any improvement? Nope. Not a bit. From the "outside" it might look like a sage is doing something, but from the "inside" (the sage's perspective) no one is imagined to be doing anything.
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Post by andrew on Feb 22, 2014 16:47:16 GMT -5
Self improvement is often about releasing conditioned limiting beliefs, authenticity, unconditional love, and realizing True Self. Non duality is about releasing conditioned limiting beliefs, unconditional love, and realizing Self/No-Self. Its 2 different models/philosophies both pointing away from conditioning and towards the same 'thing' with slightly different coding and approach. One seemingly big difference is that self-improvement is about 'becoming' whereas non-duality is about 'being'. However, 'ceaseless becoming' and 'being' are the same thing in the final analysis, in the same way that emptiness is form, and form is emptiness. I'm a big fan of Jesus teachings, and I think he's a great example of a non-dualist and a self-improver. Its the middle road I resonate most with, though part of that middle road is leaving space for the extremes (for example, neo-advaita). It seems like it comes down to the case of mistaken identity between 'Who you think you are' and 'Who you really are'. The "think you are" dude wants to release stuff, etc. Do you think the "Really are" aspect needs to release anything, has any problems, needs any improvement? No. Theoretically non-duality is a brilliant short cut. Its the most direct route, so direct that its not a 'route' and even the word 'direct' is misapplied. Practically though, it doesn't seem to work like that. A lot seem to end up reading book after book, watching video after video, going to seminar after seminar, and usually end up doing some kind of self-improvement exercises of some sort, even if its meditation or forgiveness or non-judgement. Some of the eastern teachings (and western too) have recommended clearing/releasing conditioning, which is basically self-improvement, and I resonate with that. The other problem with the short cut is that its easy to take it, and then think we are 'home', when really its more of an imitation home. So although it is potentially brilliant, it has its problems. Of course, self-improvement has its problems too.
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Post by earnest on Feb 22, 2014 17:42:59 GMT -5
How does self improvement fit in with non duality? (that sounds like an oxymoron to me) One (supposed) problem after another. Then some (supposed) remedy, after another. Isn't that just swapping one story (guy with a problem needing fixed) with another story (guy who solved problem). Rinse and repeat. I think the two can fit together quite nicely, but that the fitting needs a bit of care. If you worked from the position that who you really are is complete and whole right here and now just as it is, but that on a relative level you could learn a few things to go a little more lightly, then that seems like a good mix.. Eg, say you were a parent and you had difficulty relating to your kids because your own parents weren't that interested in being parents. You could learn some skills from a parenting course (eg Circle of Security) and become a "better parent", all whilst holding the view that things are complete as they are even if you don't get on with your kids. Where I think the self improvement thing ends up spiraling down into sh!t is when someone believes (knowingly or unknowingly) that there is some magic amount of "being ok" off in the distance, and that they need to do a whole lot of stuff to close the gap between here and there. Also, I think the danger is when one (non-duality) is used as a means to achieve the other (self-improvement). People like John Welwood write about this,. something called spiritual bypassing.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2014 18:18:36 GMT -5
How does self improvement fit in with non duality? (that sounds like an oxymoron to me) One (supposed) problem after another. Then some (supposed) remedy, after another. Isn't that just swapping one story (guy with a problem needing fixed) with another story (guy who solved problem). Rinse and repeat. I think the two can fit together quite nicely, but that the fitting needs a bit of care. If you worked from the position that who you really are is complete and whole right here and now just as it is, but that on a relative level you could learn a few things to go a little more lightly, then that seems like a good mix.. Eg, say you were a parent and you had difficulty relating to your kids because your own parents weren't that interested in being parents. You could learn some skills from a parenting course (eg Circle of Security) and become a "better parent", all whilst holding the view that things are complete as they are even if you don't get on with your kids. Where I think the self improvement thing ends up spiraling down into sh!t is when someone believes (knowingly or unknowingly) that there is some magic amount of "being ok" off in the distance, and that they need to do a whole lot of stuff to close the gap between here and there. Also, I think the danger is when one (non-duality) is used as a means to achieve the other (self-improvement). People like John Welwood write about this,. something called spiritual bypassing. I dunno .. but I don't think the two 'sides' can ever be reconciled, cuz I don't think the 'personal aspect' even exists .. except as a fabrication of mind.
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Post by earnest on Feb 22, 2014 20:51:30 GMT -5
I think the two can fit together quite nicely, but that the fitting needs a bit of care. If you worked from the position that who you really are is complete and whole right here and now just as it is, but that on a relative level you could learn a few things to go a little more lightly, then that seems like a good mix.. Eg, say you were a parent and you had difficulty relating to your kids because your own parents weren't that interested in being parents. You could learn some skills from a parenting course (eg Circle of Security) and become a "better parent", all whilst holding the view that things are complete as they are even if you don't get on with your kids. Where I think the self improvement thing ends up spiraling down into sh!t is when someone believes (knowingly or unknowingly) that there is some magic amount of "being ok" off in the distance, and that they need to do a whole lot of stuff to close the gap between here and there. Also, I think the danger is when one (non-duality) is used as a means to achieve the other (self-improvement). People like John Welwood write about this,. something called spiritual bypassing. I dunno .. but I don't think the two 'sides' can ever be reconciled, cuz I don't think the 'personal aspect' even exists .. except as a fabrication of mind. yeah I can see what you're saying. I see what could be described as self improvement as just learning a skill. Similar to learning to drive a car, play a sport etc. Maybe depends on the what and the whys... Do you think there are any times when it would be useful?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2014 21:44:12 GMT -5
Self improvement is often about releasing conditioned limiting beliefs, authenticity, unconditional love, and realizing True Self. Non duality is about releasing conditioned limiting beliefs, unconditional love, and realizing Self/No-Self. Its 2 different models/philosophies both pointing away from conditioning and towards the same 'thing' with slightly different coding and approach. One seemingly big difference is that self-improvement is about 'becoming' whereas non-duality is about 'being'. However, 'ceaseless becoming' and 'being' are the same thing in the final analysis, in the same way that emptiness is form, and form is emptiness. I'm a big fan of Jesus teachings, and I think he's a great example of a non-dualist and a self-improver. Its the middle road I resonate most with, though part of that middle road is leaving space for the extremes (for example, neo-advaita). It seems like it comes down to the case of mistaken identity between 'Who you think you are' and 'Who you really are'. The "think you are" dude wants to release stuff, etc. Do you think the "Really are" aspect needs to release anything, has any problems, needs any improvement? Thats all gobbledy goop stuff man....mentation. Just sit and breath without zoning out...and let all that knowledge seeking go into being perfectly satisfied with not knowing...its a letting go, not a picking up, or understanding....just be, without all this knowledge and knowing....you don't need to know any of this stuff for any functional reason, including Realization. Loves yas Bro
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2014 22:20:24 GMT -5
As an aside...a big part of modern 'self improvement' is really about gaining confidence....but what do you need confidence for, if your attention is on being Kind, and Loving, and Grateful?
Confidence is useful for winning, getting, and achieving....but you will have greater Joy if you shift your attention from what you can get, to what you can give.
shift attention from getting to giving, and letting go of stuff, and see how un-important 'self improvement' becomes :-)
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