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Post by nevermore on Apr 26, 2014 15:42:39 GMT -5
Sharon and laughter, I don't know what you points you were making with any of your last three posts. I have Asperger's Syndrome and if you don't express yourselves less ambiguously than that, I will think of many possible interpretations but not be able to identify the correct one. If you don't want to explain they meant, feel free not to, I'm just letting you know that the reason I'm not responding directly to them is that I don't know what they mean.
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Post by laughter on Apr 26, 2014 15:48:02 GMT -5
Sharon and laughter, I don't know what you points you were making with any of your last three posts. I have Asperger's Syndrome and if you don't express yourselves less ambiguously than that, I will think of many possible interpretations but not be able to identify the correct one. If you don't want to explain they meant, feel free not to, I'm just letting you know that the reason I'm not responding directly to them is that I don't know what they mean. 1) There are not many opportunities to offer advice to those that post to this forum. This is because the nature of the conversation here is not attractive to those who are seeking advice. 2) Any conclusions, theories, conceptual structures or expressions of conditioned patterns are often challenged in the course of conversation here. So how did you find this website? What made you pick that username? Was it a reference to the Poe poem?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2014 15:56:46 GMT -5
And do you know whether their state of mind was well enough to think, that they might have schizophrenia, when they were first diagnosed? People with schizophrenia do not stop knowing what schizophrenia is. They might disbelieve they have it, they might accept that they have it but disbelieve their current symptoms have anything to do with it, and they might be fully aware that their current symptoms are of schizophrenia. All three possibilities are very common. However, when someone does start to suspect that they have schizophrenia, they do not suddenly forget the common knowledge that if you suspect schizophrenia, you go to the doctor. So no, you do not have to tell someone "you should go to the doctor if you think you have it." They will either not suspect that they have the condition and ignore what you say completely anyway, or they will agree with you that they might have it, in which case they'll be fully aware that they have the option of going to the doctor about it. The implication of your criticism here seems to be "how dare you bother telling someone they might have schizophrenia when they might not agree or do anything about it - you should only bother warning someone about something if you're 100% sure they will listen to you". You have yet to explain exactly why you are against someone warning someone they might have schizophrenia, and yet are not against warning someone they might have a tumour. I recommend examining your attitudes towards mental illness. There is likely taboo and stigma affecting your judgment, and it might affect your ability to help people one day, just as it has done here: I'm the only person to have bothered warning this young man in any way at all that psychosis might be of medical concern. I'm not surprised, as I've encountered a lot of mental illness ignorance and anti-psychiatry sentiment from spiritual seekers already. It is something that needs to be addressed, as psychiatric illness is more common here than elsewhere: a lot of us get into spiritual seeking specifically because of suffering caused by mental illness. You read me wrong in all honesty. It is more likely that it is you that have mental health stigma issues. You have clearly pigeon-holed this young person who had a drug-induced episode. Who, having posted here 4 times, 2 months ago, has not returned in any continued distressed state. So, most likely they took the advice they were given, as in, to take care of themselves, eat well, drink plenty of fluids and leave hallucinogens alone. Let's look at this in a positive light, rather than the 'you might have schizophrenia, you're the right age.. etc.. '
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Post by laughter on Apr 26, 2014 16:00:16 GMT -5
And do you know whether their state of mind was well enough to think, that they might have schizophrenia, when they were first diagnosed? People with schizophrenia do not stop knowing what schizophrenia is. They might disbelieve they have it, they might accept that they have it but disbelieve their current symptoms have anything to do with it, and they might be fully aware that their current symptoms are of schizophrenia. All three possibilities are very common. However, when someone does start to suspect that they have schizophrenia, they do not suddenly forget the common knowledge that if you suspect schizophrenia, you go to the doctor. So no, you do not have to tell someone "you should go to the doctor if you think you have it." They will either not suspect that they have the condition and ignore what you say completely anyway, or they will agree with you that they might have it, in which case they'll be fully aware that they have the option of going to the doctor about it. The implication of your criticism here seems to be "how dare you bother telling someone they might have schizophrenia when they might not agree or do anything about it - you should only bother warning someone about something if you're 100% sure they will listen to you". You have yet to explain exactly why you are against someone warning someone they might have schizophrenia, and yet are not against warning someone they might have a tumour. I recommend examining your attitudes towards mental illness. There is likely taboo and stigma affecting your judgment, and it might affect your ability to help people one day, just as it has done here: I'm the only person to have bothered warning this young man in any way at all that psychosis might be of medical concern. I'm not surprised, as I've encountered a lot of mental illness ignorance and anti-psychiatry sentiment from spiritual seekers already. It is something that needs to be addressed, as psychiatric illness is more common here than elsewhere, because a lot of people get into spiritual seeking specifically because of suffering caused by mental illness and/or developmental disabilities. The difference between noticing an anomaly on someone's skin, on one hand, and expressing the opinion that someone might be schizophrenic from reading a few paragraphs of what they write, on the other, are quite obvious. To even invite discussion on that seems a rather curious invitation. This is an inherently social media and writing "you might be schizophrenic" in reply to someone based on those few paragraphs is definitely anti-social. There are actually a few members here who speak openly of having been diagnosed with various mental illness at various points in their lives. There are others that relate experiences that would likely lead to at least a prelude to such diagnosis if they were related in a clinical setting. Certainly, when the talk turns to thoughts of suicide or similar self-destructive vectors then the advice to "go get professional help" becomes socially appropriate, but this isn't a forum devoted to medical issues of any type, mental or physical.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2014 16:00:10 GMT -5
Sharon and laughter, I don't know what you points you were making with any of your last three posts. I have Asperger's Syndrome and if you don't express yourselves less ambiguously than that, I will think of many possible interpretations but not be able to identify the correct one. If you don't want to explain they meant, feel free not to, I'm just letting you know that the reason I'm not responding directly to them is that I don't know what they mean. Ok, I'll be more conscientious with any posts to you.
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Post by nevermore on Apr 26, 2014 16:13:10 GMT -5
Sharon and laughter, I don't know what you points you were making with any of your last three posts. I have Asperger's Syndrome and if you don't express yourselves less ambiguously than that, I will think of many possible interpretations but not be able to identify the correct one. If you don't want to explain they meant, feel free not to, I'm just letting you know that the reason I'm not responding directly to them is that I don't know what they mean. 1) There are not many opportunities to offer advice to those that post to this forum. This is because the nature of the conversation here is not attractive to those who are seeking advice. So, you think even "Help" was not requesting help? Hehe, I think we will have to agree to disagree about that one. He even ended with "PLEASE HELP ME IM ONLY 18." Gleaning intent might not be my forte, but that is as explicit as it gets. I'm sure they are, sounds good to me. I was querying the term "nondual forum" to find a place to discuss these matters or meet people with the same interests living nearby, and followed a link from a list of discussion groups someone had drawn up. In part, yes. I love that poem, and I love ravens for their symbolic power. They look wise or possibly shrewd, and serious, ominous and mysterious. The Germanic god Odin had them as companions and it's easy to see why they were associated with him. The Anglo-Saxon version of Odin, Woden, was a god of poetry and wisdom, not simply a warlord like Odin, and I like to draw inspiration from the image of Woden and his ravens, as an archetype. The word also makes me think of the fact that each moment of consciousness is born and dies instantly, it is "never more", so there is no future for any individual moment to fear, or any past to regret.
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Post by nevermore on Apr 26, 2014 16:40:36 GMT -5
You read me wrong in all honesty. It is more likely that it is you that have mental health stigma issues. You have clearly pigeon-holed this young person who had a drug-induced episode. Who, having posted here 4 times, 2 months ago, has not returned in any continued distressed state. So, most likely they took the advice they were given, as in, to take care of themselves, eat well, drink plenty of fluids and leave hallucinogens alone. Let's look at this in a positive light, rather than the 'you might have schizophrenia, you're the right age.. etc.. ' I hope that is what happened. I was disturbed that they had not returned because there is a very high rate of social alienation, homelessness, institutionalisation and self-injury with schizophrenia. The longer somebody goes without diagnosis, the more likely they are to lose jobs, fall behind academically, withdraw from and irritate family members, lose friends, and end up homeless or worse - even before the psychosis becomes impairing itself, as these occur just because of what are called "negative" and prodromal symptoms, i.e. social withdrawal, loss of emotion and motivation, and impaired social skills. That is why I consider it worth the risk of offending someone, to warn them about a risk as grave as undiagnosed schizophrenia. I think if you suspect someone has it and hasn't considered the possibility themselves, you're morally obligated to let them know you suspect it, and if they get angry, it's a small price to pay. Otherwise it's like walking past a burning building and doing nothing to warn anyone or call the authorities in case there are people inside. The stakes are high. If that is the case, the taboo associated with mental illness has to change. There should be no difference at all between suggesting someone has a skin condition, and suggesting they have a mental condition, because there should be no shame associated with the latter. It shouldn't be so taboo that warning someone of the risk is classed as antisocial because it's that offensive. I know this is easier said than done, as I have experienced enormous shame about my OCD even while knowing that shame was irrational. But however ashamed I was, I would be far more hurt to think that somebody had not warned me I might have OCD because they were worried I would be offended, than I would be to think that they risked offending me with the suggestion. To think that somebody held social inoffensiveness as their priority over my severe suffering and high suicide risk from undiagnosed mental illness would be to think of that person as cruelly indifferent. So I could never in good conscience fail to tell someone that I thought they might have schizophrenia, any more than I could in good conscience fail to tell someone their hair was on fire for fear of offending them.
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Post by laughter on Apr 26, 2014 18:52:13 GMT -5
1) There are not many opportunities to offer advice to those that post to this forum. This is because the nature of the conversation here is not attractive to those who are seeking advice. So, you think even "Help" was not requesting help? No, I didn't think that. What I wrote was that opportunities for giving advice tend to be rare on the forum. Hehe, I think we will have to agree to disagree about that one. He even ended with "PLEASE HELP ME IM ONLY 18." Gleaning intent might not be my forte, but that is as explicit as it gets. I'm sure they are, sounds good to me. yeah, got that impression! I was querying the term "nondual forum" to find a place to discuss these matters or meet people with the same interests living nearby, and followed a link from a list of discussion groups someone had drawn up. Thanks for the info. In part, yes. I love that poem, and I love ravens for their symbolic power. They look wise or possibly shrewd, and serious, ominous and mysterious. The Germanic god Odin had them as companions and it's easy to see why they were associated with him. The Anglo-Saxon version of Odin, Woden, was a god of poetry and wisdom, not simply a warlord like Odin, and I like to draw inspiration from the image of Woden and his ravens, as an archetype. The word also makes me think of the fact that each moment of consciousness is born and dies instantly, it is "never more", so there is no future for any individual moment to fear, or any past to regret. Poetry is sort of in the DNA of the forum. There are many poets here and lots of poetic content -- it seems to me to be reflective of some of the cultural and spiritual influences of the site's owner, but oddly enough while there was never any explicit sort of encouragement of it, there is is.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2014 18:54:57 GMT -5
You read me wrong in all honesty. It is more likely that it is you that have mental health stigma issues. You have clearly pigeon-holed this young person who had a drug-induced episode. Who, having posted here 4 times, 2 months ago, has not returned in any continued distressed state. So, most likely they took the advice they were given, as in, to take care of themselves, eat well, drink plenty of fluids and leave hallucinogens alone. Let's look at this in a positive light, rather than the 'you might have schizophrenia, you're the right age.. etc.. ' I hope that is what happened. I was disturbed that they had not returned because there is a very high rate of social alienation, homelessness, institutionalisation and self-injury with schizophrenia. The longer somebody goes without diagnosis, the more likely they are to lose jobs, fall behind academically, withdraw from and irritate family members, lose friends, and end up homeless or worse - even before the psychosis becomes impairing itself, as these occur just because of what are called "negative" and prodromal symptoms, i.e. social withdrawal, loss of emotion and motivation, and impaired social skills. That is why I consider it worth the risk of offending someone, to warn them about a risk as grave as undiagnosed schizophrenia. I think if you suspect someone has it and hasn't considered the possibility themselves, you're morally obligated to let them know you suspect it, and if they get angry, it's a small price to pay. Otherwise it's like walking past a burning building and doing nothing to warn anyone or call the authorities in case there are people inside. The stakes are high. If that is the case, the taboo associated with mental illness has to change. There should be no difference at all between suggesting someone has a skin condition, and suggesting they have a mental condition, because there should be no shame associated with the latter. It shouldn't be so taboo that warning someone of the risk is classed as antisocial because it's that offensive. I know this is easier said than done, as I have experienced enormous shame about my OCD even while knowing that shame was irrational. But however ashamed I was, I would be far more hurt to think that somebody had not warned me I might have OCD because they were worried I would be offended, than I would be to think that they risked offending me with the suggestion. To think that somebody held social inoffensiveness as their priority over my severe suffering and high suicide risk from undiagnosed mental illness would be to think of that person as cruelly indifferent. So I could never in good conscience fail to tell someone that I thought they might have schizophrenia, any more than I could in good conscience fail to tell someone their hair was on fire for fear of offending them. Well go with your hope then. It's much easier imagining them having dinner with their family tomorrow than walking the streets homeless and afraid. If you want to talk about your own diagnosis' then please feel free to do so. Was the Asperger's and OCD both diagnosed at the same time? Did you feel relief when this happened? As far as I understand them Asperger's is a high functioning way of thinking. A lateral and literal framework in which the world can be understood. And OCD is more a behavioural framework, in which anxieties can happen when certain definitive routines are not followed out? Do you limit physical contact with other people or did your family strive to encourage a more tactile environment for you?
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Post by laughter on Apr 26, 2014 19:08:04 GMT -5
If that is the case, the taboo associated with mental illness has to change. There should be no difference at all between suggesting someone has a skin condition, and suggesting they have a mental condition, because there should be no shame associated with the latter. It shouldn't be so taboo that warning someone of the risk is classed as antisocial because it's that offensive. I know this is easier said than done, as I have experienced enormous shame about my OCD even while knowing that shame was irrational. But however ashamed I was, I would be far more hurt to think that somebody had not warned me I might have OCD because they were worried I would be offended, than I would be to think that they risked offending me with the suggestion. To think that somebody held social inoffensiveness as their priority over my severe suffering and high suicide risk from undiagnosed mental illness would be to think of that person as cruelly indifferent. So I could never in good conscience fail to tell someone that I thought they might have schizophrenia, any more than I could in good conscience fail to tell someone their hair was on fire for fear of offending them. "Taboo" is a bit of an extrapolation from "anti-social". Very very little is taboo around here, but it's just not very friendly to write to someone "ya' know what? If you wrote that, then you are clinically mentally ill" -- yes, yes I'm aware that you qualified your diagnosis, this is just for effect to illustrate the point. The difference between suggesting someone is mentally clinical and informing them of their folicular fire is that in the latter case it's an obvious objective fact, while in the former it's a subjective conclusion. The subject so warned might just be suffering through a period of social awkwardness or some other emotional rough patch like one caused by a major family meltdown .. if they take you seriously and you're wrong you could do alot more harm than good. As I said, when someone exhibits some of the more obvious signs of a tending toward self harm, and especially in the context of a longer and more in-depth conversation, telling them to go get help happens. Even around here.
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