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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2013 23:38:27 GMT -5
How is an assessment/judgement call, different than observation? What is fundamentally different between an assessment and an observation? Gosh, teach! An observation is simply looking at something. Assessment is when the wheels go round n round, heh. :-) so can you see that in that post, TRF was not reporting an observation, as much as he was reporting an assessment, with the wheels going "round and round". When the "wheels go round and round", do you think they ever do so independently, uncolored by collected personal opinions and biases, or even just past collected information that creates a position from which the assessment is made? Aren't most of the folks here just continually making personally biased "assessments" (wheels going round and round) of each other, instead of observations?
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Post by silver on Sept 10, 2013 23:42:52 GMT -5
Gosh, teach! An observation is simply looking at something. Assessment is when the wheels go round n round, heh. :-) so can you see that in that post, TRF was not reporting an observation, as much as he was reporting an assement, with the wheels going "round and round". When the "wheels go round and round", do you think they ever do so independently, uncolored by collected personal opinions and biases? All anybody can do, is be careful and practice due diligence. That's why two heads are better than one...and we have to be aware when too many heads are just one too many, and stuff like that.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2013 23:47:01 GMT -5
:-) so can you see that in that post, TRF was not reporting an observation, as much as he was reporting an assement, with the wheels going "round and round". When the "wheels go round and round", do you think they ever do so independently, uncolored by collected personal opinions and biases? All anybody can do, is be careful and practice due diligence. That's why two heads are better than one...and we have to be aware when too many heads are just one too many, and stuff like that. Interesting.....do you find that the more successful you are a this, that you have a more defensible assessment/position?
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Post by tzujanli on Sept 10, 2013 23:53:05 GMT -5
Greetings.. Not gonna say anything about trf here but this pattern that you and Si have described is one I've observed in myself, by watching the thinker, and I take this to mean what the 3M's refer to by split-mind. Yeah, yuh know in some ways I feel as though I've gone back to the very beginning again. 25 or so years ago my first real steps on this path was to step back and be the observer of my own mind. Countless Kensho later and decades of exploration, and I'm right back to where I started, which is, don't cling to anything, and just just remain the detached witness. The only real difference, is that 25 years ago I only saw mind as word thoughts, now everything is mind....my thought, my body, my actions, my environment, all the experiences of existence....all just one melded flowing occurrence. And the moment any of it is defined, in a way, its lost. When one remains the detached witness, without defining anything, the witness disappears, and whats left is undefinable.There is always the experiencer, the witness doesn't disappear, they finally understand, they 'get it', and get on with living without attachment, hesitation, or doubt.. it is indeed a fluid and dynamic experience, it is the occurrence through which potential flows into reality.. the experience is the definition.. Be well..
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Post by silver on Sept 10, 2013 23:53:36 GMT -5
All anybody can do, is be careful and practice due diligence. That's why two heads are better than one...and we have to be aware when too many heads are just one too many, and stuff like that. Interesting.....do you find that the more successful you are a this, that you have a more defensible assessment/position? I don't think that I think in those terms - 'defensible' assessment/position - it means something to be fair as possible in this imperfect world and that's as much as anyone can shoot for. Beyond that, any point is moot.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 11, 2013 1:21:13 GMT -5
Greetings.. Yeah, yuh know in some ways I feel as though I've gone back to the very beginning again. 25 or so years ago my first real steps on this path was to step back and be the observer of my own mind. Countless Kensho later and decades of exploration, and I'm right back to where I started, which is, don't cling to anything, and just just remain the detached witness. The only real difference, is that 25 years ago I only saw mind as word thoughts, now everything is mind....my thought, my body, my actions, my environment, all the experiences of existence....all just one melded flowing occurrence. And the moment any of it is defined, in a way, its lost. When one remains the detached witness, without defining anything, the witness disappears, and whats left is undefinable.There is always the experiencer, the witness doesn't disappear, they finally understand, they 'get it', and get on with living without attachment, hesitation, or doubt.. it is indeed a fluid and dynamic experience, it is the occurrence through which potential flows into reality.. the experience is the definition.. Be well.. I can't converse with you about this with any real hope of effective communication, because your statement indicates that you lack a reference point for what was said. Its also not something I can show you or teach you, you can only see for yourself. If you would gnosis of what we speak, sit with a quiet mind, and look with concentration on one object, without defining it, until the witness disappears into what is witnessed.
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Post by laughter on Sept 11, 2013 6:32:36 GMT -5
Greetings.. There is always the experiencer, the witness doesn't disappear, they finally understand, they 'get it', and get on with living without attachment, hesitation, or doubt.. it is indeed a fluid and dynamic experience, it is the occurrence through which potential flows into reality.. the experience is the definition.. Be well.. I can't converse with you about this with you with any hope of effectiveness, because your statement indicates that you lack a reference point for what me and Laughter were speaking about. Its also not something I can show you or teach you, you can only see for yourself. If you would gnosis of what we speak, sit with a quiet mind, and look with concentration on one object, without defining it, until the witness disappears into what is witnessed. Technically speaking, "the experience is the definition" can mean the same idea as "what is left is undefinable", depending on whether experience, any experience, is considered subject to definition, ie: whether any experience can be captured and represented precisely and completely by words. The allowance to make here out of courtesy to our friend Tzu is the question of whether the disappearance of the witness can be described as an experience. As you and I understand it and relate it to one another, it isn't, but any attempt to model this in such a way as to elicit some sort of universal conceptual understanding is bound to fail.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 11, 2013 9:24:30 GMT -5
I can't converse with you about this with you with any hope of effectiveness, because your statement indicates that you lack a reference point for what me and Laughter were speaking about. Its also not something I can show you or teach you, you can only see for yourself. If you would gnosis of what we speak, sit with a quiet mind, and look with concentration on one object, without defining it, until the witness disappears into what is witnessed. Technically speaking, "the experience is the definition" can mean the same idea as "what is left is undefinable", depending on whether experience, any experience, is considered subject to definition, ie: whether any experience can be captured and represented precisely and completely by words. The allowance to make here out of courtesy to our friend Tzu is the question of whether the disappearance of the witness can be described as an experience. As you and I understand it and relate it to one another, it isn't, but any attempt to model this in such a way as to elicit some sort of universal conceptual understanding is bound to fail. 9 hours ago tzujanli said: "Greetings..
There is always the experiencer, the witness doesn't disappear, they finally understand, they 'get it', and get on with living without attachment, hesitation, or doubt.. it is indeed a fluid and dynamic experience, it is the occurrence through which potential flows into reality.. the experience is the definition..
Be well.."Nah, sorry my friend, but that bit in red is totally unrelated to what I was posting about....I was trying to communicate a specific phenomena where ALL sense of an observing self awareness is COMPLETELY merged, or disappeared into what is observed, in such a way that ALL sense of an observer disappears....whats left is literally, not metaphorically, undefinable....to give it a shot though, one might say that all observer, and observing are merged into, and disappear into the observed. There is a profound oneness to it, in that unlike the Oneness that can be observed, the observer itself is also absorbed and is no more.....words fail, but one thing is certain, in that "state", there is nothing remotely like: they finally understand, they 'get it', In that state, there is no possibility of understanding, or getting it, or any form of knowing or cognition....in fact, once there is ANY kind of understanding or "getting it"....its lost....
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Post by Deleted on Sept 11, 2013 9:36:00 GMT -5
Interesting.....do you find that the more successful you are a this, that you have a more defensible assessment/position? I don't think that I think in those terms - 'defensible' assessment/position - it means something to be fair as possible in this imperfect world and that's as much as anyone can shoot for. Beyond that, any point is moot. Your avatar's left shoulder seems to have been torn out of socket, I think the artist didn't really think that one through very well if they really wanted a circular image, they could have put both wings upward in a more anatomically possible position, and then fanned out the tail feathers at the bottom to complete the circle....:-) As it is, it just appears like the poor gal is raging impotently against having a broken wing....
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Post by tzujanli on Sept 11, 2013 10:33:30 GMT -5
Greetings.. Greetings.. There is always the experiencer, the witness doesn't disappear, they finally understand, they 'get it', and get on with living without attachment, hesitation, or doubt.. it is indeed a fluid and dynamic experience, it is the occurrence through which potential flows into reality.. the experience is the definition.. Be well.. I can't converse with you about this with any real hope of effective communication, because your statement indicates that you lack a reference point for what was said. Its also not something I can show you or teach you, you can only see for yourself. If you would gnosis of what we speak, sit with a quiet mind, and look with concentration on one object, without defining it, until the witness disappears into what is witnessed. Similarly, it is difficult to discuss reality with those that reject it.. That you can relate your experience of it, is evidence that the witness doesn't disappear.. you imagine a solution that accounts for the 'still mind' state of awareness, your mind seeks an explanation for what was 'not imprinted' into its memory files.. the 'still mind' experience bypasses the filters and files of mind's structured beliefs/knowledge, and information experienced during the still mind state is integrated into what you 'are', your unique physical pattern is changed by virtue of the direct experience/gnosis, while the mind is rationalizing an explanation for an understanding it cannot find in its structured mindscape.. The witness doesn't disappear, it becomes still and clear.. there is no need to "look with concentration", relax and let go of beliefs about witnesses.. 'looking with concentration' is just engaging the mind in an exercise expecting a result that conforms to a belief 'about' witnesses.. let that go, be willing to "be still, and know", no expectations, no attachments.. you've already expressed your attachment to beliefs about 'witnesses'.. allow yourself the freedom to just look and see, without the expectations that are limitations.. Be well..
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Post by tzujanli on Sept 11, 2013 10:43:45 GMT -5
Greetings.. Technically speaking, "the experience is the definition" can mean the same idea as "what is left is undefinable", depending on whether experience, any experience, is considered subject to definition, ie: whether any experience can be captured and represented precisely and completely by words. The allowance to make here out of courtesy to our friend Tzu is the question of whether the disappearance of the witness can be described as an experience. As you and I understand it and relate it to one another, it isn't, but any attempt to model this in such a way as to elicit some sort of universal conceptual understanding is bound to fail. 9 hours ago tzujanli said: "Greetings..
There is always the experiencer, the witness doesn't disappear, they finally understand, they 'get it', and get on with living without attachment, hesitation, or doubt.. it is indeed a fluid and dynamic experience, it is the occurrence through which potential flows into reality.. the experience is the definition..
Be well.."Nah, sorry my friend, but that bit in red is totally unrelated to what I was posting about....I was trying to communicate a specific phenomena where ALL sense of an observing self awareness is COMPLETELY merged, or disappeared into what is observed, in such a way that ALL sense of an observer disappears....whats left is literally, not metaphorically, undefinable....to give it a shot though, one might say that all observer, and observing are merged into, and disappear into the observed. There is a profound oneness to it, in that unlike the Oneness that can be observed, the observer itself is also absorbed and is no more.....words fail, but one thing is certain, in that "state", there is nothing remotely like: they finally understand, they 'get it', In that state, there is no possibility of understanding, or getting it, or any form of knowing or cognition....in fact, once there is ANY kind of understanding or "getting it"....its lost.... Your 'understanding' of understanding might be limited by your beliefs in mystical experiences.. that you can describe "that state" in terms of " once there is ANY kind of understanding or "getting it"....its lost..", you 'got it'.. but, you prefer to describe it in mystical terms that embellishes your 'self-image', as someone that 'gets it' by saying it can't be 'got'.. let that go.. you're telling me how to 'get it' with "look with concentration" exercise, your gnosis model.. Be well..
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Post by Deleted on Sept 11, 2013 14:14:33 GMT -5
Greetings.. 9 hours ago tzujanli said: "Greetings..
There is always the experiencer, the witness doesn't disappear, they finally understand, they 'get it', and get on with living without attachment, hesitation, or doubt.. it is indeed a fluid and dynamic experience, it is the occurrence through which potential flows into reality.. the experience is the definition..
Be well.."Nah, sorry my friend, but that bit in red is totally unrelated to what I was posting about....I was trying to communicate a specific phenomena where ALL sense of an observing self awareness is COMPLETELY merged, or disappeared into what is observed, in such a way that ALL sense of an observer disappears....whats left is literally, not metaphorically, undefinable....to give it a shot though, one might say that all observer, and observing are merged into, and disappear into the observed. There is a profound oneness to it, in that unlike the Oneness that can be observed, the observer itself is also absorbed and is no more.....words fail, but one thing is certain, in that "state", there is nothing remotely like: they finally understand, they 'get it', In that state, there is no possibility of understanding, or getting it, or any form of knowing or cognition....in fact, once there is ANY kind of understanding or "getting it"....its lost.... Your 'understanding' of understanding might be limited by your beliefs in mystical experiences.. that you can describe "that state" in terms of " once there is ANY kind of understanding or "getting it"....its lost..", you 'got it'.. but, you prefer to describe it in mystical terms that embellishes your 'self-image', as someone that 'gets it' by saying it can't be 'got'.. let that go.. you're telling me how to 'get it' with "look with concentration" exercise, your gnosis model.. Be well.. With all due respect, you seem to be confusing the the result of mind movement when one returns to the illusion of self from direct experience of no self....confusing as it is, because words fail, i can only say that cognition of self or no self, is different than both direct experience of self/witnesser, and direct experience of no self/no witnesser. As an aside, I don't see any of this as particularly mystical from my vantage point....its rather mundane actually. One time I got sent to a client that was a 3.4 Billion Dollar Company.....the average size client that I had previously was about 4 Million dollars per year....needless to say, I was a bit out of my league....To get a project with a company that size usually takes months of negotiations with a team of analysts on both sides.....I went in by muself and closed a 45,000,000 dollar deal in two days....I did it by hyper concentrating the mind in a way they utterly dis-allowed ANY alternative but a signed contract at the end of two days. There was absolutely no evidence whatsoever to support the possibility of success, my previous largest project was a bit over $100,000. When the contract was signed I went to the car and felt a kind of profound wonder as though something happened that I was only a conduit for.......THAT was a mystical experience...there was a wonder and glory to it that was beyond words. I had done something that no human being has ever done, before or since. That felt "mystical". This meditation stuff, is not mystical, its mundane, no miracle to it, its just a matter of application with a commonly experienced result.
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Post by silence on Sept 11, 2013 18:59:13 GMT -5
Yeah, whats seems to happen from my own experience, and from watching folks like TRF and Tzu from a while back, is that one has a shift in perspective from mind absorption to pure observational conciousness for a period, and that shift in perspective leads to a realization in the mind, in short, mind is informed by the shift. But then one can end up clinging to that realization in the mind with a kind of death grip that blocks almost everything else out. Then one procedes to defend that realization by proselytizing it with a kind of one note, emotionless rigidity....in some ways its loke one becomes a computer, or a Vulcan, (Star Trek Reference), where one is rigidly bound to the specific and cold logic of their realization. Thats why I'm a fan of letting go of realizations, they are just to easy to cling to in a way that gets one even more mind absorbed than they were before the realization. The realization that seems to shatter this process is to realize what truth actually is. To realize that what's being pointed to is vibrantly alive and in motion rather than a lifeless combination of words. There's nothing to go knocking on doors to sell to anyone and there's a variety of contexts to talk about things that can all be equally valid within the scope of the discussion.
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Post by silence on Sept 11, 2013 19:01:57 GMT -5
It's an interesting phenomenon because some of what's said isn't technically false and yet it requires almost no common sense to see that there's something quite "off" happening with him. What I basically attribute it to is the fact that mind is never actually out of the picture. The whole business labeled spirituality is really just about healing mind and yet mind's insistence on attaching to the perfect explanation or view point is part of the illness. The tendency to objectify truth into something mind can hold up and examine is all too tempting for most and so one spends however long it takes to finally admit that's not it and try again to let go. Your screen name of Silence is really an oxymoron, in light of the fact you've never been able to stop thinking for even a moment... The stop thinking stuff on internet forums is fascinating.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 11, 2013 19:04:43 GMT -5
Your screen name of Silence is really an oxymoron, in light of the fact you've never been able to stop thinking for even a moment... The stop thinking stuff on internet forums is fascinating. LoL yeah you could always just Vulcan Mind Meld mental silence from a distance :-)
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